Ontario Helmet Law being pushed through

Steven M. Scharf wrote:


Whatever your view of who "wins," there is no point in playing a child's
game of "is-so," "is-not" forever.

I have consistently tried to get this discussion to rise above the "is
so", "is not" level. I've done this by providing specific data
regarding the issue. I've provided detailed citations or specific web
links for various papers and articles concerning the issue, both from
refereed journals and from reputable journalistic sources. Guy has done
the same.

I've yet to see the same sort of information provided by either Bill or
Steven. I've yet to see them give any cogent discussion of any of the
data or articles we've mentioned. And from remarks they've made, I see
consistent evidence that they're not very familiar with the pertinent
literature.

Kill-filing eliminates the temptation
to reply in anger, or with insults, which weaken one's position, as Guy,
Frank, and Roger, have proven.

Kill-filing eliminates the need to hide your shame when you've been
proven wrong. Scharf first "kill-filed" me about the time I pointed out
that, as a person who proclaims himself "one of the Earth's leading
experts on bicycle lighting," he shouldn't be confusing total light
output (measured in lumens) with light intensity (measured in candela) -
a VERY fundamental mistake!

However, I don't believe he actually kill files people who point out his
mistakes. I say this because he frequently takes the "discussion" to
his website, where he can say what he wants with no fear of rebuttal.
This is how he handled the discussion on bicycle lighting, so it's how I
expect he'll handle the discussion on helmets.

Frank was especially helpful in
providing material for my lighting website...

.... as were Guy Chapman, Andreas Oehler (a professional in the field),
David Damerell, Zoot Katz, Tim McNamara, Matt O'Toole, Tom Keats, Rick
Warner, and others! The list of people pointing out Scharf's errors was
actually quite long. I think I committed the sin of being too specific
- but for all I know, he kill-filed all those guys.


--
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com.
Substitute cc dot ysu dot
edu]

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 14:30:51 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote in message :

I have consistently tried to get this discussion to rise above the "is
so", "is not" level. I've done this by providing specific data
regarding the issue. I've provided detailed citations or specific web
links for various papers and articles concerning the issue, both from
refereed journals and from reputable journalistic sources.

Frank, you know as well as I do, the only authority Scharf considers
credible is the American Journal of Because I Said So ;-)

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

"Just zis Guy, you know?" writes:

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 07:06:07 GMT, Bill "Laa laa I'm not listening"
Zaumen wrote:

In factI haven't
killfiled anyone, although I do ignore certain individuals' posts on
occassion. I doubt if Steven killfiles everyone who disagrees with him
either.

No, only those who ask him for some kind of evidential basis for his
assertions.

Given your habit of infantile name calling (see above) I don't blame
him for killfiling you.

I'll ignore the rest of your posts that just arrived as well - you
are still acting like a child.

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB

Benjamin Lewis writes:

Bill Z. wrote:

Benjamin Lewis writes:

Bill Z. wrote:

In Guy's case, Godwin was wrong. :-) My interpretation of Godwin's
law is that it is about someone calling the other side of the
discussion "nazis" instead of merely referring to the use of various
propaganda techniques, including ones the nazis developed and that
U.S. businesses picked up on for "advertising."

Any comparison of one's debating opponent to historical figures from
Nazi Germany is in bad taste, IMO.

We were talking about letters to said nazi's mother as an indication
that he actually believed the propaganda, outrageous as it was.

So what? You said, to Frank Krygowski:

Gee. You sound like Josef Mengele, the Nazi "doctor" who did "medical
experiments" on children in concentration camps.

Can't we leave that Nazis out of it?

The original post had an explanation of the point. It was their
tendencies to believe their own propaganda and the self-serving pats
on one's own back that were being compared. That Mengele was a nazi
is merely a historical aside (and if I didn't mention it, someone
would probably have complained about that as well.)

As to "bad taste" I take it you haven't noticed Guy's non-stop infantile
ranting and two months of non-stop personal insults.

What does Guy have to do with this, regardless of what I think of his
posts?

I get the two confused sometimes. Both post continual personal attacks.
It all sort of blurs together.

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB

Bill Z. wrote:

Given your habit of infantile name calling (see above) I don't blame
him for killfiling you.

This was part of the reason, but it was also that he kept just posting
the same stuff over and over again, as if repeating incorrect
information ad nauseum would somehow convince people that it was correct.

On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 02:58:47 GMT, Bill "Laa laa I'm not listening"
Zaumen wrote:

Given your habit of infantile name calling (see above) I don't blame
him for killfiling you.

You worked hard for that soubriquet, Bill, and you should be proud
that it is unique to you. Scharf's tactics are different form your
ins one important respect: where your method of evasion is to drag a
discussion to personal abuse and then complain about it, his is to
take it to his website where he controls both medium and message.

Neither of you is prepared to address evidence, though, you have that
much in common.

I'll ignore the rest of your posts that just arrived as well

Translation: "Laa laa, I'm not listening".

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 05:29:19 GMT, "Steven M. Scharf"
wrote in message
. net:

This was part of the reason, but it was also that he kept just posting
the same stuff over and over again,

Yeah - like "cite some evidence for that" or "prove it". You hate
that, I know.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

"Just zis Guy, you know?" writes:

On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 02:58:47 GMT, Bill "Laa laa I'm not listening"
Zaumen wrote:

Given your habit of infantile name calling (see above) I don't blame
him for killfiling you.

You worked hard for that soubriquet, Bill, and you should be proud
that it is unique to you. snip

I'll ignore the rest of your posts that just arrived as well

Translation: "Laa laa, I'm not listening".

If anyone thinks I'll post serious replies to a man-child like
Guy when he acts this way, they are out of their minds. Steven
is right about Guy.

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 02:54:40 GMT, Bill "Laa laa I'm not listening"
Zaumen wrote:

If anyone thinks I'll post serious replies to a man-child like
Guy when he acts this way, they are out of their minds.

Translation: "Laa laa I'm not listening"

Steven is right about Guy.

I suppose it is theoretically possible for him to be right about
something, although there is even less credible evidence to support
that than to support the efficacy of PFDBs against serious injury...

Guy
--
"then came ye chavves, theyre cartes girded wyth candels
blue, and theyre beastes wyth straynge horn-lyke thyngs
onn theyre arses that theyre fartes be herde from myles
around." Chaucer, the Sheppey Tales

"Just zis Guy, you know?" writes:

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 02:54:40 GMT, Bill "Laa laa I'm not listening"
Zaumen wrote:

If anyone thinks I'll post serious replies to a man-child like
Guy when he acts this way, they are out of their minds.

Translation: "Laa laa I'm not listening"

Actual Translation: if you act like a child, you'll be treated like a
child.

Steven is right about Guy.

I suppose it is theoretically possible for him to be right about
something, although there is even less credible evidence to support
that than to support the efficacy of PFDBs against serious injury...

More babbling?


--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB