Can't Use Helmets in the Sun????

Quoting Hadron Quark :
Same as that : but its ludicrous to suggest that they dont offer at
least some protection.

No more ludicrous than it is to suggest that increasing the lever arm
won't exacerbate torsional impacts.
--
David Damerell flcl?
Today is Second Sunday, May - a weekend.

Quoting Hadron Quark :
Why are you intent on bringing other risky activities into this?

Because, if your position is consistent, why do you not wear a helmet for
other activities as dangerous as cycling, like travelling in motor cars?

Its hard to sport trends in small samples. But I have seen enough
material to know that there are a plethora of cyclists out there who
reckon that wearing a helmet saved them considerable injury and maybe
even their lives.

Indeed. So many, in fact, that it is quite obvious that these stories are
nonsense. How can one in twenty helmet-wearers have had their lives saved
by helmets if only one in every few thousand cyclists can expect to be
killed while riding?
--
David Damerell flcl?
Today is Second Sunday, May - a weekend.

Hadron Quark wrote:

Who said anything about *whether* you should wear a helmet? I already
said I dont. This discussion is about whether a helmet provides protection.

and:

What? What has that to do with whether a helmet provides a degree of
protection.

and

I am a cyclist. I do not wear a helmet.

Mr. "Quark," judging by the above, you seem to be saying:

a) the protection provided by a helmet is somewhat greater than
absolute zero

b) despite that, it's perfectly reasonable for a cyclist to choose not
to wear a helmet.

If I'm interpreting your statements correctly, we have no quarrel on
those points.

- Frank Krygowski

wrote:

Mr. "Quark," judging by the above, you seem to be saying:

a) the protection provided by a helmet is somewhat greater than
absolute zero

If I'm interpreting your statements correctly, we have no quarrel on
those points.

Ummm, some. Whether a helmet provides positive, negative or zero
protection depends on circumstances. Mine provided my absolute
zero protection when my chim bounced off the pavement, for example.

Should be "there are are times when a helmet will provide non-zero
protection. That may be positive or, in some cases, negative".

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

GaryG wrote:

[... GaryG completely ignoring what the former poster has written...]
So you're saying that the effect of striking one's head upon the ground
while wearing a cotton cycling cap would be the same as (or possibly safer
than?) striking the ground while wearing a helmet?

No. "Striking" the head on the ground with force while wearing a cotton
cap should usually result in some aching muscles in your shoulder
because your brain is bright enough to keep your head as far away from
the ground as possible.
"Striking" the head on the ground with force while wearing a helmet
should result in some injuries to your neck (helmet straps) and your
chin/teeth, because due to the extra size of your helmet you won't be
able to keep your head away from the ground.

In the case that you are participating in a "case control" study like
the ones cited in the cochrane review in the moment of your accident,
these injuries due to the helmet would result in you being a control
case (no head injuries in the helmet region) and would therefor be
counted as a case where the helmet has prevented a head injury. What a
wonderful way to design a study this way, isn't it?

Serious head injuries while cycling are very rare if no motor vehicle is
involved in the accident and if the rider does not hit an obstacle with
his head. I have heard of only one so far and that rider was wearing a
helmet.

Ingo.

I hit a pothole yesterday, lost control and went down. Besides the
road rash on my left leg and arm, my neck has a cramp that concerns me
a little. I can remember when my head hit the pavement, it hit hard, I
thought the helmut was going to shatter into pieces, but that turned
out to be my wrist watch in pieces scooting along in front of me. I
know my head would have been hurt, maybe a concussion or worse, had I
not been wearing my helmut. Not sure if it saved my life, but I know
it reduced my injuries considerably.


On 15 May 2006 14:14:26 +0100 (BST), David Damerell
wrote:

Quoting Hadron Quark :
Why are you intent on bringing other risky activities into this?

Because, if your position is consistent, why do you not wear a helmet for
other activities as dangerous as cycling, like travelling in motor cars?

Its hard to sport trends in small samples. But I have seen enough
material to know that there are a plethora of cyclists out there who
reckon that wearing a helmet saved them considerable injury and maybe
even their lives.

Indeed. So many, in fact, that it is quite obvious that these stories are
nonsense. How can one in twenty helmet-wearers have had their lives saved
by helmets if only one in every few thousand cyclists can expect to be
killed while riding?

foots wrote:
I hit a pothole yesterday, lost control and went down. Besides the
road rash on my left leg and arm, my neck has a cramp that concerns me
a little. I can remember when my head hit the pavement, it hit hard, I
thought the helmut was going to shatter into pieces, but that turned
out to be my wrist watch in pieces scooting along in front of me. I
know my head would have been hurt, maybe a concussion or worse, had I
not been wearing my helmut. Not sure if it saved my life, but I know
it reduced my injuries considerably.

Sorry, you're not allowed to think that (at least on some of these groups).

HTH, BS

foots wrote:
I hit a pothole yesterday, lost control and went down. Besides the
road rash on my left leg and arm, my neck has a cramp that concerns me
a little. I can remember when my head hit the pavement, it hit hard, I
thought the helmut was going to shatter into pieces, but that turned
out to be my wrist watch in pieces scooting along in front of me. I
know my head would have been hurt, maybe a concussion or worse, had I
not been wearing my helmut.

But you don't: your helmeted head is heavier and bigger than your
unhelmeted head, so it's quite possible that contributed to you taking
the head hit.

Not sure if it saved my life, but I know
it reduced my injuries considerably.

It /may/ have saved you a worse injury, but you do not *know* that.
Furthermore, the extra size of the helmet may have given a lever that
contributed to that worrying neck cramp.

The number of anecdotes of "helmet saved me" increases at a far greater
rate than unhelmeted riders collect serious head injuries. Thus it is
clear they are not reliable guides.

See http://www.cyclehelmets.org/mf.html?1019 for more.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

What a coincidence!

Yesterday, not even a mile into the Montauk 145-mile ride in NYC, this
cyclist was clutching his bloody head next to a taxicab. Hardly made
me think about my own helmet hung off my seat. I thought, hell, you
might as well wear a full-face BMX helmet, then.

But of course, what are the chances? And that's what the heart of the
matter is: what do you think your chances are, given what you know
about yourself as a rider, given what you know about the typical
traffic flow in your part of the world, given what you know about the
efficacy of styrofoam as a life-saving or harm-moderating material?

I try not to let anyone else make that kind of a decision for me,
whether State law or bike clubs. So far, the overwhelming majority of
people (~98%) don't try to -- cops don't bother, clubs don't bother,
etc. It is my life, after all.

Thank you.

=)



foots wrote:
I hit a pothole yesterday, lost control and went down. Besides the
road rash on my left leg and arm, my neck has a cramp that concerns me
a little. I can remember when my head hit the pavement, it hit hard, I
thought the helmut was going to shatter into pieces, but that turned
out to be my wrist watch in pieces scooting along in front of me. I
know my head would have been hurt, maybe a concussion or worse, had I
not been wearing my helmut. Not sure if it saved my life, but I know
it reduced my injuries considerably.


On 15 May 2006 14:14:26 +0100 (BST), David Damerell
wrote:

Quoting Hadron Quark :
Why are you intent on bringing other risky activities into this?

Because, if your position is consistent, why do you not wear a helmet for
other activities as dangerous as cycling, like travelling in motor cars?

Its hard to sport trends in small samples. But I have seen enough
material to know that there are a plethora of cyclists out there who
reckon that wearing a helmet saved them considerable injury and maybe
even their lives.

Indeed. So many, in fact, that it is quite obvious that these stories are
nonsense. How can one in twenty helmet-wearers have had their lives saved
by helmets if only one in every few thousand cyclists can expect to be
killed while riding?

"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...
foots wrote:
I hit a pothole yesterday, lost control and went down. Besides the
road rash on my left leg and arm, my neck has a cramp that concerns me
a little. I can remember when my head hit the pavement, it hit hard, I
thought the helmut was going to shatter into pieces, but that turned
out to be my wrist watch in pieces scooting along in front of me. I
know my head would have been hurt, maybe a concussion or worse, had I
not been wearing my helmut.

But you don't: your helmeted head is heavier and bigger than your
unhelmeted head, so it's quite possible that contributed to you taking
the head hit.

By that "rationale", a cotton cycling cap would confer a greater degree of
protection than a proper cycling helmet. Not sure if that's the argument
you're trying to make, but that's the take-home message.

FWIW, the average human head weighs between 4.5 and 5 kg. An average
bicycle helmet (e.g., Gyro Pneumo) weighs 0.26 kg, so the average increase
in head weight is around 5%.

You've implied in quite a few posts that an unhelmeted cyclist can keep
their head from impacting the ground in a fall by use of their neck muscles,
and you've also stated that a helmeted cyclist's neck muscles would not be
able to overcome the additional momentum of the helmet. Given the small
additional mass of a modern helmet, I strongly suspect your argument is
specious (a nice way of saying you're pulling it out of your ass).


Not sure if it saved my life, but I know
it reduced my injuries considerably.

It /may/ have saved you a worse injury, but you do not *know* that.
Furthermore, the extra size of the helmet may have given a lever that
contributed to that worrying neck cramp.

Yet again the clear message is that "helmets are dangerous".

Do you have any studies to back up your rather bizarre assertions that
helmets increase the dangers of head impact/neck injuries? Or, is this
merely yet more of your anti-helmet crusade?

GG

The number of anecdotes of "helmet saved me" increases at a far greater
rate than unhelmeted riders collect serious head injuries. Thus it is
clear they are not reliable guides.

See http://www.cyclehelmets.org/mf.html?1019 for more.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/