Better Braking?

On Tue, 4 Feb 2020 07:24:38 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 5:13:30 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 3 Feb 2020 16:11:42 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 2:49:20 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 3 Feb 2020 07:12:47 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 2:17:00 AM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 20:15:06 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/2/2020 7:11 PM, jbeattie wrote:

The OE direct mount brakes on my Trek stop well enough but have a slightly different feel than Ultegra dual pivot. Their reason for being is aerodynamics and light weight.

And everyone knows how critical aerodynamics are. Why, just look at how
Shimano AX absolutely transformed everyone's riding experience!

And light weight? Yep, pedaling your 180 pound bike+rider weight up a
hill is a completely different experience than pedaling your 179.9 pound
total bike+rider weight. That extra tenth of a pound absolutely sucks!
Thank God for 0.06% improvements!

But Frank! It's NEW! and everyone knows that NEW is BETTER.....
O.K., it might cost a tiny bit more but just think, everyone will be
looking at you with envy (Pssst, he's got one of them there new
things...) and think of the bragging rights... "See, I was riding
along on my $3,000 bike there with the new thing on it..."

You have this weird fascination with price. Nobody I ride with buys anything as a status symbol -- and nobody pays OTC price. My Trek was pro-deal because I do work for the company, and most of my friends are in the industry. And even if I did pay full price for my bike, who cares? Why not have a bike that is fun to ride?

-- Jay Beattie.

Given that I am retired I think that some pre-occupation with prices
might be wise, but more important is the seeming allegation that one
must have an expensive bike to enjoy riding. You ask, "Why not have a
bike that is fun to ride?" and I might reply, "Why not have fun riding
a bike?"
--

Cheers,

John B.

I'm not saying you have to have an expensive bike to have fun. I'm saying that a stiff 16lb racing bike is a hoot when your racing friends up a climb or to a city limits sign -- or actually racing. You can love your beach-bomber or whatever, but having a bike that takes off when you hit the gas is fun. The price I paid for my Emonda was a blip on the financial radar. I ride with guys who have way more expensive bikes, although none of them paid full price either.

It's also fun having a bike that will bomb down a trail or carry luggage or that you can dump in the racks at work without worry (except for whacking the dyno light). I have a bunch of bikes and all are loved and used. I'm not trying to pry anyone's bike out of their cold dead hands. People can love whatever bike they want, but some bikes are more fun than others. Just like some cars, skis, monkey wrenches and frying pans are more fun than others. I even have a favorite pair of ski poles -- and a favorite dental floss.

-- Jay Beattie.

Strange. I have been using tools since I was a sub-teen and I can't
say that I ever had a favorite wrench, other than saying that the
proper size wrench (to fit the nut) was much to be admired. And while
I was a member of the high school ski team I can't remember having a
favorite pair of skis, or ski poles, other than having one pair for
downhill and another for cross country.

I asked my wife about favorite fry pans and she tells me that one uses
the correct pan for what one is doing and she has been cooking for
something like 60 years...

But perhaps we are disadvantaged in being able to enjoy skiing without
multiple sets of ski poles, or repairing things without a favorite
wrench or my wife without a favorite frying pan - I shall not tell her
that she is disadvantaged though as she already has a room full of
pots and pans and might want to buy even more :-)

O.K., just to get a base-line here, how about gas versus electric cook top? Straight razor versus triple-blade disposable? Flush toilet versus pit toilet? Do you have a favorite version of anything?


Gas versus electric? Ohooo we didn't have all that modern stuff, the
choice was a wood stove versus a kerosene stove :-) and my maternal
grandmother preferred wood and, in spite of her daughters arguments to
the contrary, kept her wood stove until she died :-) Of course, there
was a kerosene stove on the rear stoep (note early New England
terminology) for the "hot" summer months.

Straight razor? My barber maintains that a straight razor is "the only
thing" to use and I'd guess that he shaves more faces per day than I
do :-)

Flush toilets versus pit toilets... commonly referred to in polite
society as an "out house". There I can't comment on efficiency but
certainly from an olfactory point of view the flush toilet wins hands
down.

And why do you always frame things in a pejorative way, like "you can't enjoy skiing unless you have (gasp) multiple pairs of skis?" I enjoy cycling and skiing, but I enjoy them more when I'm on a certain bike (depending on terrain) or pair of skis (depending on snow). Don't you enjoy sitting in a more comfortable chair -- or is it presumptuous sitting on anything other than a three-leg milking stool? Do the restaurants in Thailand have only one menu item?

I was actually replying to your apparent assertion that you had so
many pairs of ski poles that you had a favorite set with which you had
more fun than any of the others...

I have a favorite Crescent wrench with a nice padded handle that I found on the ground while riding. I have a favorite set of ski poles that are stiff with low swing weight and a generous strap (that broke, waaaah). I was skiing on Sunday, dodging all the dopes trying to get in a few runs before the Superbowl, and totally digging my favorite set of Portlund Ory-gun hand-made skis. https://shop.on3pskis.com/products/2020-jeffrey-108 Don't worry, I didn't pay that much -- but even if I did, so what? I got them at the "factory" years ago when it was about the size of a garage. I would have had fun on my other skis, too, but not as much fun. Some things just work better than others, or they're more fun to use than others. That doesn't mean that life is miserable without them.


BTW, ski racing for you must have been pretty relaxed. My son and his cohorts would complain about wax and edging -- let alone slalom versus GS skis. I'd give him too little edge bevel and he'd hook up in corners. Talk about fussy. His GS skis kept delaminating, and I was always epoxying them back together. Ah, the good old days.

I didn't race down hill stuff and the real enthusiasts on my high
school team usually had two or three sets of skis, downhill, cross
country and possible jumping and I might mention that we were usually
the champion New England School team.

To date all this I might comment that Torger Tokle jumped on our town
hill during some sort of N.E. States championship meet.


-- Jay Beattie.
--

Cheers,

John B.

wrote:
On Tuesday, February 4, 2020 at 10:12:32 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, February 4, 2020 at 11:34:26 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 4, 2020 at 8:25:27 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/4/2020 3:26 AM, wrote:
If you want to build an aero bike with calipers you put direct mount brakes on.

No other kind is permitted!! Because there's that 0.002% benefit from
those brakes!!

It is not that if I want to make a non aero bike more aero the first
thing to do is putting direct mount brakes on. On the other hand
there are no downsides to direct mount brakes so why the hell.

"There are no downsides" indicates you're sucked into the promotion,
and/or not thinking very hard.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Sucked into the promotion? What are the downsides, educate me. You need
a special frame for them is the wrong answer.

And what promotion? TK had to ask what they were, so the promotion
apparently is not working. Big Direct Mount is apparently failing to
enthrall the weak-minded consumers.

And Frank, why do you constantly criticize equipment you've never tried
and probably haven't even seen in person? I ride direct mount brakes on
dry days. They're great, and in fact, they are better than ANY brake
you currently own. Better than cantilevers, better than v-brakes,
better than ordinary dual pivots. They are second only to disc brakes
because like all rim brakes, they are rim lathes. Otherwise, they're
better than the Beatles. I get up every morning just to see them there
on my Trek in the garage -- as I jump on my commuter pig and head for the icy streets.

Have you tried Di2? No. CF wheels? No. Garmin anything? No. Discs? No.
What equipment made in the last twenty years (apart from tires and
chains) have you tried? Do you even have STI? A cellphone? If you have
an Amish beard, I'll scream.

Frank's bike club:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d0/d4...de657ecdd7.jpg

-- Jay Beattie.

I considered buying my Canyon Aeroad for two years reading several test
in TOUR magazin where this bike scored top notes again and again in best
bang for your buck, comfort and aero. The measured aero advantage was
about 20-30 Watt at a speed of 40 km/hr compared to a regular top end
bike like my Canyon CF SLX with non aero wheels, my super light climbing
bike. At that time I didn't really know what 20 Watts would mean. After
riding a season with a power meter I knew that 15-20 Watt is significant
(I ride at a speed between 34-38 km/hr when I'm pushing on the flats). So
I decided to go for it. Then I had the choice between a disk brake model
and a rim brake model. I decided for the rim brake model because this
bike would be used on the flats in dry conditions. The rim brake model
had direct mount brakes which up to then I didn't pay much attention to
so a did some research and found out that they were as common as 'normal'
single/dual pivot rim brakes. (Shimano and Campagnolo have direct mount
rim brakes at almost every component level which are all
interchangeable). They have more tyre clearance (is good), and from the
design I can understand that the would be stiffer (is good) and from
their position on the frame more aero (is also good). Significant? I
don't know and I couldn't care less. They were the rim brakes that came
with that model, they were readily available, will last a lifetime like
all my other brakes and theoretically work better. So what is not to
like. I think instead of the normal single/dual pivots rim brakes they
should have invented these but I can't change history. I sucked into
promotion? Please give me a break. It is the best road bike for my kind
of riding I ever owned.

Lou


My Tarmac Pro is the best bike I’ve owned. 15lbs wheels on. 11 speed
double mid compact. Fun to ride and I ride it a lot.
Commuting and recreation rides. Pretty much every chance I get.

BTW, it came with direct mount brakes. In 20,000 km I’ve done 0 maintenance
on them and they work fine. Never even thought about toe in. What are you
supposed to do? Have them replaced with cantilevers? WTF are we talking
about?

On 2/4/2020 4:12 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, February 4, 2020 at 11:34:26 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 4, 2020 at 8:25:27 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/4/2020 3:26 AM, wrote:
If you want to build an aero bike with calipers you put direct mount brakes on.

No other kind is permitted!! Because there's that 0.002% benefit from
those brakes!!

It is not that if I want to make a non aero bike more aero the first thing to do is putting direct mount brakes on. On the other hand there are no downsides to direct mount brakes so why the hell.

"There are no downsides" indicates you're sucked into the promotion,
and/or not thinking very hard.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Sucked into the promotion? What are the downsides, educate me. You need a special frame for them is the wrong answer.

And Lou, why is that a wrong answer? Tom is regaling us with his tales
of mixing and swapping components on his bikes. People sometimes want to
do that - at least, people who are into bikes enough to hang out in a
"tech" bike discussion group. ISTM that restricting yourself to one type
of brake is no better than restricting oneself to BB139.7FX, or whatever
the latest abandoned standard happens to be.

And what promotion? TK had to ask what they were, so the promotion apparently is not working.

How about the "They're more aero!" promotion? They're about as "more
aero" as cutting the velcro straps off your shoes and using duct tape
instead. Or if that's too impractical, using zippers on your shoes. But
nobody's selling that (yet).

I'm surprised so many people here have such problems grasping the
concept "negligible."

And Frank, why do you constantly criticize equipment you've never tried and probably haven't even seen in person? I ride direct mount brakes on dry days. They're great, and in fact, they are better than ANY brake you currently own. Better than cantilevers, better than v-brakes, better than ordinary dual pivots.

Jay, I keep asking "Better in what way?" I don't get much for answers.
Better meaning you squeeze a little less hard for maximum deceleration?
(Um... wow. I've needed maximum deceleration once in the last ten years,
and only to demonstrate it before then.) Better as in a little more tire
clearance than dual pivots? (But a lot less than V-brakes or other
cantilevers.) Better as in you can swap them between your bikes at will?
(Definitely not.) Better as in lighter weight? (No, cantilevers are
usually lighter; and BTW, some cantis are just as aero.) Better as in
less complicated mechanically? (Sorry, not close.)

Better as in trendier? YES!! We have a winner!

Have you tried Di2? No. CF wheels? No. Garmin anything? No. Discs? No. What equipment made in the last twenty years (apart from tires and chains) have you tried? Do you even have STI? A cellphone?

I haven't tried Di2. I've tried CF wheels on a friend's bike. No, I
don't need Garmin (really, what for??). Yes, I've tried discs on several
bikes. No, I don't have STI, but two family members do, as well as many
friends, and I've ridden one of those bikes a lot and worked on several
of them to help the owners out. Yes, I have a cell phone (which is why I
don't need a Garmin). Yes, I do have gear that was developed in the past
20 years, which is what you probably meant. No, I don't run out and buy
whatever the bike industry is flailing on about each year. Instead I
consider advantages and disadvantages, mostly concerning how the latest
gizmo would affect my riding experience.

But enough of the ad hominem nonsense. This isn't supposed to be a
fashion discussion group or a psych discussion group. If you've got to
go there to defend your new toys, you're failing Tech.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/4/2020 5:47 PM, wrote:
...The rim brake model had direct mount brakes which up to then I didn't
pay much attention to so a did some research and found out that they
were as common as 'normal' single/dual pivot rim brakes. (Shimano and
Campagnolo have direct mount rim brakes at almost every component level
which are all interchangeable). They have more tyre clearance (is good)...

I'll just point out that up to a month ago, when I said it was silly to
build a bike that restricted tires to 25mm, people were howling at me. I
believe you were one of those people, Lou.

Now more tire clearance is good! It seems we are making progress! ;-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/3/2020 8:13 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 3 Feb 2020 16:11:42 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 2:49:20 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 3 Feb 2020 07:12:47 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 2:17:00 AM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 20:15:06 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/2/2020 7:11 PM, jbeattie wrote:

The OE direct mount brakes on my Trek stop well enough but have a slightly different feel than Ultegra dual pivot. Their reason for being is aerodynamics and light weight.

And everyone knows how critical aerodynamics are. Why, just look at how
Shimano AX absolutely transformed everyone's riding experience!

And light weight? Yep, pedaling your 180 pound bike+rider weight up a
hill is a completely different experience than pedaling your 179.9 pound
total bike+rider weight. That extra tenth of a pound absolutely sucks!
Thank God for 0.06% improvements!

But Frank! It's NEW! and everyone knows that NEW is BETTER.....
O.K., it might cost a tiny bit more but just think, everyone will be
looking at you with envy (Pssst, he's got one of them there new
things...) and think of the bragging rights... "See, I was riding
along on my $3,000 bike there with the new thing on it..."

You have this weird fascination with price. Nobody I ride with buys anything as a status symbol -- and nobody pays OTC price. My Trek was pro-deal because I do work for the company, and most of my friends are in the industry. And even if I did pay full price for my bike, who cares? Why not have a bike that is fun to ride?

-- Jay Beattie.

Given that I am retired I think that some pre-occupation with prices
might be wise, but more important is the seeming allegation that one
must have an expensive bike to enjoy riding. You ask, "Why not have a
bike that is fun to ride?" and I might reply, "Why not have fun riding
a bike?"
--

Cheers,

John B.

I'm not saying you have to have an expensive bike to have fun. I'm saying that a stiff 16lb racing bike is a hoot when your racing friends up a climb or to a city limits sign -- or actually racing. You can love your beach-bomber or whatever, but having a bike that takes off when you hit the gas is fun. The price I paid for my Emonda was a blip on the financial radar. I ride with guys who have way more expensive bikes, although none of them paid full price either.

It's also fun having a bike that will bomb down a trail or carry luggage or that you can dump in the racks at work without worry (except for whacking the dyno light). I have a bunch of bikes and all are loved and used. I'm not trying to pry anyone's bike out of their cold dead hands. People can love whatever bike they want, but some bikes are more fun than others. Just like some cars, skis, monkey wrenches and frying pans are more fun than others. I even have a favorite pair of ski poles -- and a favorite dental floss.

-- Jay Beattie.

Strange. I have been using tools since I was a sub-teen and I can't
say that I ever had a favorite wrench, other than saying that the
proper size wrench (to fit the nut) was much to be admired. And while
I was a member of the high school ski team I can't remember having a
favorite pair of skis, or ski poles, other than having one pair for
downhill and another for cross country.

I asked my wife about favorite fry pans and she tells me that one uses
the correct pan for what one is doing and she has been cooking for
something like 60 years...

But perhaps we are disadvantaged in being able to enjoy skiing without
multiple sets of ski poles, or repairing things without a favorite
wrench or my wife without a favorite frying pan - I shall not tell her
that she is disadvantaged though as she already has a room full of
pots and pans and might want to buy even more :-)

Jay didn't mention his favorite peanut butter. See
https://i.redd.it/lv70dat46ukz.png

Why settle for less than the BEST? ;-)


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/4/2020 10:24 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 5:13:30 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 3 Feb 2020 16:11:42 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 2:49:20 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 3 Feb 2020 07:12:47 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 2:17:00 AM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 20:15:06 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/2/2020 7:11 PM, jbeattie wrote:

The OE direct mount brakes on my Trek stop well enough but have a slightly different feel than Ultegra dual pivot. Their reason for being is aerodynamics and light weight.

And everyone knows how critical aerodynamics are. Why, just look at how
Shimano AX absolutely transformed everyone's riding experience!

And light weight? Yep, pedaling your 180 pound bike+rider weight up a
hill is a completely different experience than pedaling your 179.9 pound
total bike+rider weight. That extra tenth of a pound absolutely sucks!
Thank God for 0.06% improvements!

But Frank! It's NEW! and everyone knows that NEW is BETTER.....
O.K., it might cost a tiny bit more but just think, everyone will be
looking at you with envy (Pssst, he's got one of them there new
things...) and think of the bragging rights... "See, I was riding
along on my $3,000 bike there with the new thing on it..."

You have this weird fascination with price. Nobody I ride with buys anything as a status symbol -- and nobody pays OTC price. My Trek was pro-deal because I do work for the company, and most of my friends are in the industry. And even if I did pay full price for my bike, who cares? Why not have a bike that is fun to ride?

-- Jay Beattie.

Given that I am retired I think that some pre-occupation with prices
might be wise, but more important is the seeming allegation that one
must have an expensive bike to enjoy riding. You ask, "Why not have a
bike that is fun to ride?" and I might reply, "Why not have fun riding
a bike?"
--

Cheers,

John B.

I'm not saying you have to have an expensive bike to have fun. I'm saying that a stiff 16lb racing bike is a hoot when your racing friends up a climb or to a city limits sign -- or actually racing. You can love your beach-bomber or whatever, but having a bike that takes off when you hit the gas is fun. The price I paid for my Emonda was a blip on the financial radar. I ride with guys who have way more expensive bikes, although none of them paid full price either.

It's also fun having a bike that will bomb down a trail or carry luggage or that you can dump in the racks at work without worry (except for whacking the dyno light). I have a bunch of bikes and all are loved and used. I'm not trying to pry anyone's bike out of their cold dead hands. People can love whatever bike they want, but some bikes are more fun than others. Just like some cars, skis, monkey wrenches and frying pans are more fun than others. I even have a favorite pair of ski poles -- and a favorite dental floss.

-- Jay Beattie.

Strange. I have been using tools since I was a sub-teen and I can't
say that I ever had a favorite wrench, other than saying that the
proper size wrench (to fit the nut) was much to be admired. And while
I was a member of the high school ski team I can't remember having a
favorite pair of skis, or ski poles, other than having one pair for
downhill and another for cross country.

I asked my wife about favorite fry pans and she tells me that one uses
the correct pan for what one is doing and she has been cooking for
something like 60 years...

But perhaps we are disadvantaged in being able to enjoy skiing without
multiple sets of ski poles, or repairing things without a favorite
wrench or my wife without a favorite frying pan - I shall not tell her
that she is disadvantaged though as she already has a room full of
pots and pans and might want to buy even more :-)

O.K., just to get a base-line here, how about gas versus electric cook top? Straight razor versus triple-blade disposable? Flush toilet versus pit toilet? Do you have a favorite version of anything?

And why do you always frame things in a pejorative way, like "you can't enjoy skiing unless you have (gasp) multiple pairs of skis?" I enjoy cycling and skiing, but I enjoy them more when I'm on a certain bike (depending on terrain) or pair of skis (depending on snow). Don't you enjoy sitting in a more comfortable chair -- or is it presumptuous sitting on anything other than a three-leg milking stool? Do the restaurants in Thailand have only one menu item?

I have a favorite Crescent wrench with a nice padded handle that I found on the ground while riding. I have a favorite set of ski poles that are stiff with low swing weight and a generous strap (that broke, waaaah). I was skiing on Sunday, dodging all the dopes trying to get in a few runs before the Superbowl, and totally digging my favorite set of Portlund Ory-gun hand-made skis. https://shop.on3pskis.com/products/2020-jeffrey-108 Don't worry, I didn't pay that much -- but even if I did, so what? I got them at the "factory" years ago when it was about the size of a garage. I would have had fun on my other skis, too, but not as much fun. Some things just work better than others, or they're more fun to use than others. That doesn't mean that life is miserable without them.

But many people _think_ many things work better; or they _think_ they
are better quality. And indeed, they actually enjoy them more because
they _think_ they're better. It's so heartwarming!

But it gets weird when the item in question (like a "fine" wine, or a
"historic" violin, or an "immensely valuable" painting) is in fact quite
ordinary. And yes, that happens all the time.

https://corbettbarr.com/cheap-vs-exp...he-difference/

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017...nd-sound-check

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...nd-taste-tests

Of course, there are massive amounts of money spent to influence people
to think this way.

And as we see here, skepticism is not treated kindly!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 4 Feb 2020 21:46:29 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/4/2020 5:47 PM, wrote:
...The rim brake model had direct mount brakes which up to then I didn't
pay much attention to so a did some research and found out that they
were as common as 'normal' single/dual pivot rim brakes. (Shimano and
Campagnolo have direct mount rim brakes at almost every component level
which are all interchangeable). They have more tyre clearance (is good)...

I'll just point out that up to a month ago, when I said it was silly to
build a bike that restricted tires to 25mm, people were howling at me. I
believe you were one of those people, Lou.

Now more tire clearance is good! It seems we are making progress! ;-)

Gee Frank. You go on and on about people being influenced by
advertisement and here you go doing exactly the same thing trying to
justify bicycles with great hulking forks.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/advertise
verb, ad·ver·tised, ad·ver·tis·ing.
to announce or praise (a product, service, etc.) in some public medium
of communication in order to induce people to buy or use it:
--

Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 4 Feb 2020 22:06:50 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/4/2020 10:24 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 5:13:30 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 3 Feb 2020 16:11:42 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 2:49:20 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 3 Feb 2020 07:12:47 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 2:17:00 AM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 20:15:06 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/2/2020 7:11 PM, jbeattie wrote:

The OE direct mount brakes on my Trek stop well enough but have a slightly different feel than Ultegra dual pivot. Their reason for being is aerodynamics and light weight.

And everyone knows how critical aerodynamics are. Why, just look at how
Shimano AX absolutely transformed everyone's riding experience!

And light weight? Yep, pedaling your 180 pound bike+rider weight up a
hill is a completely different experience than pedaling your 179.9 pound
total bike+rider weight. That extra tenth of a pound absolutely sucks!
Thank God for 0.06% improvements!

But Frank! It's NEW! and everyone knows that NEW is BETTER.....
O.K., it might cost a tiny bit more but just think, everyone will be
looking at you with envy (Pssst, he's got one of them there new
things...) and think of the bragging rights... "See, I was riding
along on my $3,000 bike there with the new thing on it..."

You have this weird fascination with price. Nobody I ride with buys anything as a status symbol -- and nobody pays OTC price. My Trek was pro-deal because I do work for the company, and most of my friends are in the industry. And even if I did pay full price for my bike, who cares? Why not have a bike that is fun to ride?

-- Jay Beattie.

Given that I am retired I think that some pre-occupation with prices
might be wise, but more important is the seeming allegation that one
must have an expensive bike to enjoy riding. You ask, "Why not have a
bike that is fun to ride?" and I might reply, "Why not have fun riding
a bike?"
--

Cheers,

John B.

I'm not saying you have to have an expensive bike to have fun. I'm saying that a stiff 16lb racing bike is a hoot when your racing friends up a climb or to a city limits sign -- or actually racing. You can love your beach-bomber or whatever, but having a bike that takes off when you hit the gas is fun. The price I paid for my Emonda was a blip on the financial radar. I ride with guys who have way more expensive bikes, although none of them paid full price either.

It's also fun having a bike that will bomb down a trail or carry luggage or that you can dump in the racks at work without worry (except for whacking the dyno light). I have a bunch of bikes and all are loved and used. I'm not trying to pry anyone's bike out of their cold dead hands. People can love whatever bike they want, but some bikes are more fun than others. Just like some cars, skis, monkey wrenches and frying pans are more fun than others. I even have a favorite pair of ski poles -- and a favorite dental floss.

-- Jay Beattie.

Strange. I have been using tools since I was a sub-teen and I can't
say that I ever had a favorite wrench, other than saying that the
proper size wrench (to fit the nut) was much to be admired. And while
I was a member of the high school ski team I can't remember having a
favorite pair of skis, or ski poles, other than having one pair for
downhill and another for cross country.

I asked my wife about favorite fry pans and she tells me that one uses
the correct pan for what one is doing and she has been cooking for
something like 60 years...

But perhaps we are disadvantaged in being able to enjoy skiing without
multiple sets of ski poles, or repairing things without a favorite
wrench or my wife without a favorite frying pan - I shall not tell her
that she is disadvantaged though as she already has a room full of
pots and pans and might want to buy even more :-)

O.K., just to get a base-line here, how about gas versus electric cook top? Straight razor versus triple-blade disposable? Flush toilet versus pit toilet? Do you have a favorite version of anything?

And why do you always frame things in a pejorative way, like "you can't enjoy skiing unless you have (gasp) multiple pairs of skis?" I enjoy cycling and skiing, but I enjoy them more when I'm on a certain bike (depending on terrain) or pair of skis (depending on snow). Don't you enjoy sitting in a more comfortable chair -- or is it presumptuous sitting on anything other than a three-leg milking stool? Do the restaurants in Thailand have only one menu item?

I have a favorite Crescent wrench with a nice padded handle that I found on the ground while riding. I have a favorite set of ski poles that are stiff with low swing weight and a generous strap (that broke, waaaah). I was skiing on Sunday, dodging all the dopes trying to get in a few runs before the Superbowl, and totally digging my favorite set of Portlund Ory-gun hand-made skis. https://shop.on3pskis.com/products/2020-jeffrey-108 Don't worry, I didn't pay that much -- but even if I did, so what? I got them at the "factory" years ago when it was about the size of a garage. I would have had fun on my other skis, too, but not as much fun. Some things just work better than others, or they're more fun to use than others. That doesn't mean that life is miserable without them.

But many people _think_ many things work better; or they _think_ they
are better quality. And indeed, they actually enjoy them more because
they _think_ they're better. It's so heartwarming!

But it gets weird when the item in question (like a "fine" wine, or a
"historic" violin, or an "immensely valuable" painting) is in fact quite
ordinary. And yes, that happens all the time.

https://corbettbarr.com/cheap-vs-exp...he-difference/

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017...nd-sound-check

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...nd-taste-tests

Of course, there are massive amounts of money spent to influence people
to think this way.

And as we see here, skepticism is not treated kindly!

While I can't argue with the expensive versus cheap wine tasting I can
say with all honesty that some wines tastes much better than other
wines. I made home made wine for a number of years and I can assure
you that some of the batches were so awful that I poured them down the
drain and others I was quite proud of :-)
--

Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, February 5, 2020 at 3:46:57 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/4/2020 5:47 PM, wrote:
...The rim brake model had direct mount brakes which up to then I didn't
pay much attention to so a did some research and found out that they
were as common as 'normal' single/dual pivot rim brakes. (Shimano and
Campagnolo have direct mount rim brakes at almost every component level
which are all interchangeable). They have more tyre clearance (is good)....

I'll just point out that up to a month ago, when I said it was silly to
build a bike that restricted tires to 25mm, people were howling at me. I
believe you were one of those people, Lou.

You have a problem with bikes with a tight clearance, I don't. If wider tires are a requirement just get a bike that can handle wider tires. They are readily available and always were.


Now more tire clearance is good! It seems we are making progress! ;-)

Never had problems with wider tires but if I if the choice would be between wider tires and brake calipers with more flex or tires up to 25 mm and stiffer brakes I would choose the latter for a road bike. We were talking about direct mount brakes and my statement that they don't have downsides. I stand by that based on actually using them. I explained how I end up with them and it is far from 'sucked into promotion' like it is for a lot of people using them. That is just an unfounded assumption from you.

Lou

On Wednesday, February 5, 2020 at 3:43:13 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/4/2020 4:12 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, February 4, 2020 at 11:34:26 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 4, 2020 at 8:25:27 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/4/2020 3:26 AM, wrote:
If you want to build an aero bike with calipers you put direct mount brakes on.

No other kind is permitted!! Because there's that 0.002% benefit from
those brakes!!

It is not that if I want to make a non aero bike more aero the first thing to do is putting direct mount brakes on. On the other hand there are no downsides to direct mount brakes so why the hell.

"There are no downsides" indicates you're sucked into the promotion,
and/or not thinking very hard.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Sucked into the promotion? What are the downsides, educate me. You need a special frame for them is the wrong answer.

And Lou, why is that a wrong answer?

Because every kind of brake need some adaptation to the frame. Your cantis need threaded studs no? Calipers need a hole for a center bolt, no? Disks need ... Direct mounts are no different.

Tom is regaling us with his tales
of mixing and swapping components on his bikes. People sometimes want to
do that - at least, people who are into bikes enough to hang out in a
"tech" bike discussion group. ISTM that restricting yourself to one type
of brake is no better than restricting oneself to BB139.7FX, or whatever
the latest abandoned standard happens to be.


I really don't understand what Tom is doing and I think it is not normal. Can you run disks on your canti equipped bike Frank. Can you run cantis on your bike equipped with single/dual pivot brakes?

Lou