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#21
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Simple bikes for local transport
tim wrote:
making plans while he waits patiently for his approval sample bakfietsen to be unloaded from the container... tap tap tap... I have fond memories of riding home in the 'bak' at about age 6 or 7 with my dad doing the pedalling. Theo |
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#22
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Simple bikes for local transport
"tim" wrote in message
... On Nov 26, 8:57 pm, G-S wrote: Zebee Johnstone wrote: In aus.bicycle on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 00:45:30 -0800 (PST) tim wrote: $600 for a coaster-braked single-speed steel-framed bike? Yeeeow! Any rival would have to compete with k-mart bikes, which are what people use for that job now. That's my goal. I've dispaired at the cheap bike options available in Australia for years. BTH's good experiences with his BigW bike are refreshing, but the fact remains - ultra-cheap bikes are very low quality and generally unsuitable for their target and actual use. It makes no sense to fit knobby tyres on a bike with the generic "not for off-road use" sticker, for example. The first few steps up the price ladder gets you more gimmicks and no more quality. Dysfunctional suspension. Shockingly bad disc brakes. Funky "Y-bike" frames that add weight, reduce strength and increase the number of questionable welds. Pay a bit more, the gimmicks get better in quality, until you're paying $500+ for a reasonably good bike. I would still question whether the style of the bike is appropriate for the target use - as discussed in the thread that I've forked this from, Australian society is set on the idea of cycling being a sport, and the categories of bikes on the market ("road" or "mountain") reflect this. "Hybrid" bikes are a change from this, but simply don't exist at the lower price level... where many of the people who would be best served by such a bike are shopping. I want to offer functional bikes for a price comparable to department store junk bikes. Cheap, comfortable, reliable, and adequate for short local trips. I'm not kidding myself that this is a huge market segment. I'm not about to quitting my day job and build a lavish corporate HQ. In the first instance I'm only planning on selling a few cargo-bikes (bakfietsen), which is an even smaller segment. But if I'm setting up import and distribution channels I may as well look at other options too. A bit more inventory. A few more pallets in the garage. A bit more money tied up in stuff I hope I can sell. Gulp. (This whole debacle started because I want a bakfiets to carry my little girls, and couldn't find them for sale outside of Europe and Portland, OR.. Next thing I know I'm setting myself up as an import tycoon. Eeep.) The prices for similar bikes from Europe are actually higher than that. That's why I'm looking to source from China. People admire Dutch and Danish cycling culture, so they look to buy Dutch- and Danish-built bikes to follow the "simple bike" philosophy. If you can afford a genuine Dutch single-speed city bike, good luck to you. I'm sure they're great bikes, but the price doesn't fit the product. There's nearly a billion people riding basic single-speed bikes in China and India combined, and they sure as heck can't afford premium quality European craftsmanship. If anybody knows how to put a basic steel bike frame together it's the Chinese. They sure build enough of them. I suspect there are more miles ridden on Chinese single-speed bikes than all other bikes in the world combined. They do look good, but it's too hilly around here for single speeds (my first real bike as a child proved that and I was fit then!). So we get to the point of this post - what do people think is necessary (and/or desireable) for a basic, general purpose, local transport bike for lycra-free "unreal cyclists" (as PeteSig so elequently put it)? Single-speed is as simple as it gets. But there's the hill issue. Cost permitting, my preference would be hub gears. Derailers are great for sporting bikes - there's no better, lighter or cheaper way to get such a wide range of gears - but they require some shifting technique, and present the possibility of the chain falling off. People like my Mum are scared of derailer gears. Hub gears are more rugged, more forgiving of (moderate) neglect, and more foolproof in operation. 3- speed hubs have been used for nearly 100 years. There are now numerous 8-speed hubs on the market (Shimano, Sram and Sturmey) although none of them are particularly cheap. I don't think the local transport bike market can afford, nor requires, Rohloff :-P A good chain guard (or full chain case) is a must-have, as are good mudguards. These bikes should be rideable in street clothes, or a business suit, without getting filthy. The chain case requirement fits in with the "no derailers" idea - a single chainline is easier to guard. Chain guards are also a deadset nuisance if you drop a chain, which is much more likely with derailer gears (especially if the bike ends up in small-small gears, which they inevitably do when ridden by non-enthusiast cyclists). Asian and European city bikes tend to run coaster (back-pedal) brakes on the rear wheel only. I survived okay as a kid with my back-pedal brake BMX, but Australian law now requires all new bikes to have front and rear brakes. Are rim brakes really a good choice for bikes that are unlikely to have their rims replaced if (when) damaged? What about drum brakes? I don't think discs are a viable option at this end of the market - cheap discs simply don't work, and the rotors are always susceptible to damage when jammed into bike racks etc.. How about frame style? Traditional diamond frame is a given; how about step-through frames ("grandmother bikes" as the Dutch would call them)? Not good for frame stiffness, but intended to be easier to ride in a skirt. I've never ridden in a long skirt, so I don't know how much of an issue this is. 26" or 700c wheels? Any other thoughts or suggestions? tim http://www.townbikes.com - work in progress behind the scenes :-P I want one of these bikes when you get them! I'm currently riding my mum's 1950s(?) Malvern Star, and the brakes terrify me. I don't trust them to stop at the bottom of a hill, so I find myself braking the whole way down the hill. I'm sure there must be a better way. I'd also like a side stand (I know, I could easily get one). I ride to the shops (about 1km) or short rides with my toddler in a front-mounted child seat. It doesn't seem worth spending $900 (what my previous bike cost) for that. Maybe when my daughter's a bit older and can ride her own bike. Liz |
#23
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Simple bikes for local transport
Zebee Johnstone wrote:
I agree. I have no idea how much "fashion" comes into it. For kids a lot, for adults, maybe not so much. Well.. maybe adult men A Giant Cypress City (complete with Chain guard, kick stand, hub gears, no front derailer, lights, rack, suspension seat and front suspension) is hardly a 'fashion statement' :-) [1] G-S [1] nor i suspect is BT's K-Mart bike! [2] [2] we're adult... really we are *convincing look* [3] [3] I don't think Zebee is buying it BTH *sigh* |
#24
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Simple bikes for local transport
Theo Bekkers wrote:
wrote: Amen! Personally, while my first two bicycles as a kid were single speeds, I can't imagine ever buying or desiring a single speed again. I only rode single-speeds as a kid and rode from Mt Lawley to Perth after I started work on the same bike I had in High school. When I got back into cycling at age 40, I rode a fixie for a while from Balga to the City. No big deal. You just need to have a manageble gear, which means you're limiting your top speed a little. Assuming the area has no serious hills this is true. A serious hill means gearing where either you get off and push or you settle for a top speed of 15kph G-S |
#25
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Simple bikes for local transport
In aus.bicycle on Tue, 27 Nov 2007 18:34:43 +1100
G-S wrote: [1] nor i suspect is BT's K-Mart bike! [2] [2] we're adult... really we are *convincing look* [3] [3] I don't think Zebee is buying it BTH *sigh* He has a shed full of c90s. You have a sidecar. And of course a Guzzi. THe prosecution rests m'lud Zebee |
#26
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Simple bikes for local transport
"tim" wrote in message ... On Nov 26, 8:57 pm, G-S wrote: Zebee Johnstone wrote: In aus.bicycle on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 00:45:30 -0800 (PST) tim wrote: $600 for a coaster-braked single-speed steel-framed bike? Yeeeow! Any rival would have to compete with k-mart bikes, which are what people use for that job now. That's my goal. I've dispaired at the cheap bike options available in Australia for years. BTH's good experiences with his BigW bike are refreshing, but the fact remains - ultra-cheap bikes are very low quality and generally unsuitable for their target and actual use. It makes no sense to fit knobby tyres on a bike with the generic "not for off-road use" sticker, for example. The first few steps up the price ladder gets you more gimmicks and no more quality. Dysfunctional suspension. Shockingly bad disc brakes. Funky "Y-bike" frames that add weight, reduce strength and increase the number of questionable welds. Pay a bit more, the gimmicks get better in quality, until you're paying $500+ for a reasonably good bike. I would still question whether the style of the bike is appropriate for the target use - as discussed in the thread that I've forked this from, Australian society is set on the idea of cycling being a sport, and the categories of bikes on the market ("road" or "mountain") reflect this. "Hybrid" bikes are a change from this, but simply don't exist at the lower price level... where many of the people who would be best served by such a bike are shopping. I want to offer functional bikes for a price comparable to department store junk bikes. Cheap, comfortable, reliable, and adequate for short local trips. I'm not kidding myself that this is a huge market segment. I'm not about to quitting my day job and build a lavish corporate HQ. In the first instance I'm only planning on selling a few cargo-bikes (bakfietsen), which is an even smaller segment. But if I'm setting up import and distribution channels I may as well look at other options too. A bit more inventory. A few more pallets in the garage. A bit more money tied up in stuff I hope I can sell. Gulp. (This whole debacle started because I want a bakfiets to carry my little girls, and couldn't find them for sale outside of Europe and Portland, OR.. Next thing I know I'm setting myself up as an import tycoon. Eeep.) The prices for similar bikes from Europe are actually higher than that. That's why I'm looking to source from China. People admire Dutch and Danish cycling culture, so they look to buy Dutch- and Danish-built bikes to follow the "simple bike" philosophy. If you can afford a genuine Dutch single-speed city bike, good luck to you. I'm sure they're great bikes, but the price doesn't fit the product. There's nearly a billion people riding basic single-speed bikes in China and India combined, and they sure as heck can't afford premium quality European craftsmanship. If anybody knows how to put a basic steel bike frame together it's the Chinese. They sure build enough of them. I suspect there are more miles ridden on Chinese single-speed bikes than all other bikes in the world combined. They do look good, but it's too hilly around here for single speeds (my first real bike as a child proved that and I was fit then!). So we get to the point of this post - what do people think is necessary (and/or desireable) for a basic, general purpose, local transport bike for lycra-free "unreal cyclists" (as PeteSig so elequently put it)? Single-speed is as simple as it gets. But there's the hill issue. Cost permitting, my preference would be hub gears. Derailers are great for sporting bikes - there's no better, lighter or cheaper way to get such a wide range of gears - but they require some shifting technique, and present the possibility of the chain falling off. People like my Mum are scared of derailer gears. Hub gears are more rugged, more forgiving of (moderate) neglect, and more foolproof in operation. 3- speed hubs have been used for nearly 100 years. There are now numerous 8-speed hubs on the market (Shimano, Sram and Sturmey) although none of them are particularly cheap. I don't think the local transport bike market can afford, nor requires, Rohloff :-P A good chain guard (or full chain case) is a must-have, as are good mudguards. These bikes should be rideable in street clothes, or a business suit, without getting filthy. The chain case requirement fits in with the "no derailers" idea - a single chainline is easier to guard. Chain guards are also a deadset nuisance if you drop a chain, which is much more likely with derailer gears (especially if the bike ends up in small-small gears, which they inevitably do when ridden by non-enthusiast cyclists). Asian and European city bikes tend to run coaster (back-pedal) brakes on the rear wheel only. I survived okay as a kid with my back-pedal brake BMX, but Australian law now requires all new bikes to have front and rear brakes. Are rim brakes really a good choice for bikes that are unlikely to have their rims replaced if (when) damaged? What about drum brakes? I don't think discs are a viable option at this end of the market - cheap discs simply don't work, and the rotors are always susceptible to damage when jammed into bike racks etc.. How about frame style? Traditional diamond frame is a given; how about step-through frames ("grandmother bikes" as the Dutch would call them)? Not good for frame stiffness, but intended to be easier to ride in a skirt. I've never ridden in a long skirt, so I don't know how much of an issue this is. 26" or 700c wheels? Any other thoughts or suggestions? tim http://www.townbikes.com - work in progress behind the scenes :-P We've sold quite a few of the Gemini Gofas (shameless plug for my shop warning) http://www.bikeexchange.com.au/adver...view/100004144. They retail for $499 and come complete with lights, rack, basket, mudguards, lock and stand. I think they are a good compromise in terms of gearing - rear derailleur and single chainring. I found customers who are scared of derailleurs are OK with the single chainring; perhaps they see it as less threatening than having to shift front and rear. My shop is in the Perth foothills and the gearing is sufficient for around here, even with some steepish short hills. I think as far as a cheap basic bike is concerned you'd battle to come in much under the $500 retail mark when all's done with the accessories for a utility bike. Maybe you could canvass the local importers and buy wholesale from them and assemble complete packages like the Gofa. It might save you the hassle of importing. You could also approach Cell Bikes ( http://www.cellbikes.com.au/contact.php) and see if they will manufacture to your spec. Let them do the work for you instead of hunting around for what you want. Just a couple of ideas... me |
#27
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Simple bikes for local transport
"G-S" wrote in message ... Zebee Johnstone wrote: I agree. I have no idea how much "fashion" comes into it. For kids a lot, for adults, maybe not so much. Well.. maybe adult men A Giant Cypress City (complete with Chain guard, kick stand, hub gears, no front derailer, lights, rack, suspension seat and front suspension) is hardly a 'fashion statement' :-) [1] G-S [1] nor i suspect is BT's K-Mart bike! [2] [2] we're adult... really we are *convincing look* [3] [3] I don't think Zebee is buying it BTH *sigh* Yes it is - for certain people. The Cypress City has been popular with those who want a 'cut above the Elwood' for pootling the Perth foreshore bike paths and the like. There's a pootler's subculture that has its own fashions. Not everybody's fashion consists of performance items. Some just like to look good when being casual unreal cyclists - I do like that term Toodles, me |
#28
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Simple bikes for local transport
"tim" wrote in message ... Single-speed is as simple as it gets. But there's the hill issue. Cost permitting, my preference would be hub gears. Derailers are great for sporting bikes - there's no better, lighter or cheaper way to get such a wide range of gears - but they require some shifting technique, and present the possibility of the chain falling off. People like my Mum are scared of derailer gears. Hub gears are more rugged, more forgiving of (moderate) neglect, and more foolproof in operation. 3- speed hubs have been used for nearly 100 years. There are now numerous 8-speed hubs on the market (Shimano, Sram and Sturmey) although none of them are particularly cheap. I don't think the local transport bike market can afford, nor requires, Rohloff :-P I'd say 3-5spd hub gears. One of my friends wanted a bike specifically without a lot of gears as she doesn't want to have to deal with the front/rear derailleur thing. When I described the 3spd SA hub on my Raleigh as having a gear for going up hills, a gear for flat ground and a gear for going down hills, she said that was exactly what she wanted. Five gears could give the option for a properly low gear which I'm guessing could be a very good thing when carting vast quantities of stuff home from the market in the bakfiet. I'm rather interested in one of those, btw. Asian and European city bikes tend to run coaster (back-pedal) brakes on the rear wheel only. I survived okay as a kid with my back-pedal brake BMX, but Australian law now requires all new bikes to have front and rear brakes. Are rim brakes really a good choice for bikes that are unlikely to have their rims replaced if (when) damaged? What about drum brakes? I don't think discs are a viable option at this end of the market - cheap discs simply don't work, and the rotors are always susceptible to damage when jammed into bike racks etc.. Backpedal brakes are horrible bloody things for a variety of reasons. On the other hand, a similar mechanism operated by cable to a hand lever rather than by backpedalling would work fine. I suppose that's where we get to roller brakes if you can do them cheaply and effectively. If your braking is at the hub, go with a big spoke count. Actually, go with a big spoke count anyway. How about frame style? Traditional diamond frame is a given; how about step-through frames ("grandmother bikes" as the Dutch would call them)? Not good for frame stiffness, but intended to be easier to ride in a skirt. I've never ridden in a long skirt, so I don't know how much of an issue this is. Both work. Frame stiffness on a stepthrough frame would be an issue when you're getting on it in a sprint but not so much pootling to the shops. I agree with lemmi on making the top tube proprly horizontal on the conventional frame. There's no good functional reason for that but it's a good look. 26" or 700c wheels? Either work although my personal preferance would be for 700 purely on aesthetic grounds. There are heaps of 35-38mm tourer tyres around that would suit that sort of bike really well. Any other thoughts or suggestions? Some kind of cheap variant of the Brooks saddle bags? Dynamo lighting is cool, but bottle generators are nasty and dynohubs are expensive, especially if you're trying to incorporate them into a braked hub. If you're selling these online, offer a certain amount of modularity with regards to bits (would madame like north bend, flat, bullhorn or moustache bars with that?). Centrestands are a thing that I can see being a distinct advantage (especially for the bakfiet while trying to load and unload it). |
#29
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Simple bikes for local transport
Plodder wrote:
"G-S" wrote in message ... Zebee Johnstone wrote: I agree. I have no idea how much "fashion" comes into it. For kids a lot, for adults, maybe not so much. Well.. maybe adult men A Giant Cypress City (complete with Chain guard, kick stand, hub gears, no front derailer, lights, rack, suspension seat and front suspension) is hardly a 'fashion statement' :-) [1] G-S [1] nor i suspect is BT's K-Mart bike! [2] [2] we're adult... really we are *convincing look* [3] [3] I don't think Zebee is buying it BTH *sigh* Yes it is - for certain people. The Cypress City has been popular with those who want a 'cut above the Elwood' for pootling the Perth foreshore bike paths and the like. There's a pootler's subculture that has its own fashions. Not everybody's fashion consists of performance items. Some just like to look good when being casual unreal cyclists - I do like that term Toodles, me Hmmm Interesting. I'm not from Perth though, and I don't have a foreshore to ride along. I live in a country victorian town and use the bike to commute to work. Most of the cyclists here are lycra wearing race bike riders (very active cycling club). There are only a few people commuting that I've seen, and most tend to commute on mountain bikes (riding a mountain bike seems unnecessary extra effort to me). I did look at the Elwood, then I looked at the Elwood SE (wanted front suspension because our country road edges are shocking) but by the time I added mudguards and chainguard and paid the shop to fit them there was only $100 difference and I honestly thought the $100 extra for the hub gears was worth it. [1] G-S [1] I will admit that I think the blue on the cypress city is a nicer color if that helps ;-) |
#30
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Simple bikes for local transport
Resound wrote:
Centrestands are a thing that I can see being a distinct advantage (especially for the bakfiet while trying to load and unload it). You're right... I hate the sidestand on my cypress city with a passion. It is easily the least practical bit of the bike, when I have weight in the panniers the bike is very unstable. G-S |
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