Road Tires: Width vs Speed Penalties?

On Sat, 16 Dec 2017 22:31:59 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 12/16/2017 8:58 PM, John B. wrote:


If one wants to get scientific, my guess is that the average guy
posting has well over 10% body weight as fat, in fact I read that the
*average* Usian is 23 lbs over his "ideal body weight" (which totally
ignores tissue make up).

(Note: I an excepting James from this as I believe that he is still
maintaining his lean body mass near optimum).

So, to be scientific, lets say, "You'd be far, far better off getting
rid of 15 - 20 lbs of that stuff hanging over your belt, before you
start buying new tires.... its cheaper too :-)

I think the difference is: For most of us here, buying new tires is
possible. In fact, it's easy.

Losing 20 pounds, on the other hand...

Geeze Frank, losing weight is probably the easiest thing that a person
can do..... Just keep your mouth closed :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Saturday, December 16, 2017 at 10:18:17 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2017 at 5:58:40 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 16 Dec 2017 08:13:42 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Saturday, December 16, 2017 at 2:53:06 AM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 16 Dec 2017 00:24:22 -0600, Tim McNamara
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Dec 2017 16:07:29 -0800 (PST), HaloTupolev
wrote:
but don't say anything about width-vs-speed penalties.

Compass generally claims that width itself doesn't cause significant
differences in net performance.

I can't remember which issue it was (43 maybe?), but one of the
editions of Bicycle Quarterly included testing on the apron of
Marymoor Velodrome where the entire range of Compass tire widths
performed identically, within the precision of their measurement
methodology.

I haven't read that one, but their earlier ones involved roll-down
testing and (from one of the photos in the article) timing with a
wris****ch. I put little credence into that article because if the
likelihood of noise in the data.

They later did some interesting testing using a power meter, which
struck me as a better way to assess performance.

That said, I think that Compass is correct in that given identical
construction (casing, tread thickness, rubber compound) the effects of
width as a variable would be small. The more traditional drum tests
suggested (e.g. the ones done for Avocet). For as long as I can
remember, most wider tires also feature heavier casings and much thicker
rubber- wide high performance tires were rare. Compass has pushed in
that direction quite aggressively and good for them.

Compass's assertion that inflation pressure has little impact on
performance is out of keeping with that testing, although when
real-world road textures/roughness are included there may be relatively
little adverse impact from lower pressures. Jim Papadopoulos wrote
about that in this forum many years ago under the rubric of suspension
losses, and his thinking had a direct impact on Compass's tire design
philosophy.

My bike with 26 x 1.8 Compass tires seems as fast as my bikes with 700 x
25 or 700 x 28 Paselas. At least based on average speeds on my cycle
computer and similar subjective effort. That is of course far from a
scientific approach!

On the other hand if you go out and ride your 50 km loop with the wide
26" tires and then go out the next day and ride the same loop with
your 700c x 28 tires in the same time, can science tell you any more
:-)

Science would tell you that your 700C X 28mm bike sucks or that you live in a place with absolutely no elevation gain.


While I wasn't specifically thinking of hills and such but the fact
remains that if you ride your 50 km loop at the same speed with the
two bikes and you are happy with the ride... what else is there?

If one wants to get scientific, my guess is that the average guy
posting has well over 10% body weight as fat, in fact I read that the
*average* Usian is 23 lbs over his "ideal body weight" (which totally
ignores tissue make up).

(Note: I an excepting James from this as I believe that he is still
maintaining his lean body mass near optimum).

So, to be scientific, lets say, "You'd be far, far better off getting
rid of 15 - 20 lbs of that stuff hanging over your belt, before you
start buying new tires.... its cheaper too :-)

If I lost 20lbs, I'd look like a death camp survivor. Ten would be O.K. Anyway, even when I'm carrying a few extra pounds, I can feel the difference in effort needed to move different bikes and tires. I just switched out some OE Schwalbe Luganos for some Pro4 Endurance -- both 28mm. https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...be-lugano-2015 I can feel the difference between the two, even though I was just slugging along today through the hills. I ride 6-7 days a week and ride three different bikes with regularity. They're all different. Tomorrow will be a group ride with guys I've been riding with weekly for years or decades -- racers and former racers, and although it won't be a death race this time of year . . . two guys a ride, three guys a race and more guys more race. I don't want to be flogging some touring bike with balloon tires up a hill when everyone else is on a racing bike.

-- Jay Beattie.

the peloton tried dragging taunting me along as they came past on my trip to Walmart. Tuned n lubed, was clear after 300 yards that the flow was not going my way.

Per :
Try a conti cyclo-cross tirefrom bike tires direct or universalcycles

Pulled the trigger on one yesterday.

Thanks.
--
Pete Cresswell

John B. wrote:
On Sat, 16 Dec 2017 22:31:59 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 12/16/2017 8:58 PM, John B. wrote:


If one wants to get scientific, my guess is that the average guy
posting has well over 10% body weight as fat, in fact I read that the
*average* Usian is 23 lbs over his "ideal body weight" (which totally
ignores tissue make up).

(Note: I an excepting James from this as I believe that he is still
maintaining his lean body mass near optimum).

So, to be scientific, lets say, "You'd be far, far better off getting
rid of 15 - 20 lbs of that stuff hanging over your belt, before you
start buying new tires.... its cheaper too :-)

I think the difference is: For most of us here, buying new tires is
possible. In fact, it's easy.

Losing 20 pounds, on the other hand...

Geeze Frank, losing weight is probably the easiest thing that a person
can do..... Just keep your mouth closed :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

This forum is often a shining example of exactly how hard it is to "just
keep your mouth closed".

On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 16:03:18 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote:
John B. wrote:
On Sat, 16 Dec 2017 22:31:59 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 12/16/2017 8:58 PM, John B. wrote:


If one wants to get scientific, my guess is that the average guy
posting has well over 10% body weight as fat, in fact I read that
the *average* Usian is 23 lbs over his "ideal body weight" (which
totally ignores tissue make up).

(Note: I an excepting James from this as I believe that he is still
maintaining his lean body mass near optimum).

So, to be scientific, lets say, "You'd be far, far better off
getting rid of 15 - 20 lbs of that stuff hanging over your belt,
before you start buying new tires.... its cheaper too :-)

I think the difference is: For most of us here, buying new tires is
possible. In fact, it's easy.

Losing 20 pounds, on the other hand...

Geeze Frank, losing weight is probably the easiest thing that a
person can do..... Just keep your mouth closed :-)

This forum is often a shining example of exactly how hard it is to
"just keep your mouth closed".

LOL! Well, the internet in general falls into that.

I am reminded of a quote attrinuted to Miles Davis in the mid 1950s.
John Coltrane was in the first great quintet of Miles's and famous for
playing on and on. At the end of one take, Miles chastized him and
Trane replied "Sorry, man, I couldn't figure out how to stop." Miles
replied "take the horn out of your mouth."

Speaking of weight loss and not meaning to shound like a shill, my wife
had great results with Weigh****chers. She started that in 1999 or 2000
and lost over 50#, which she has basically kept off since (+/- 10#).
That's in contrast to me; I hit 250 lbs in 1990 and got a severe lecture
from my doc (family history of diabetes, heart disease, etc.). Just by
eating less stupidly and resuming riding my bike, which I had left idle
for a year or two after moving to the Big City, I lost 55# in about a
year. I started racing in 1992 and maintained that weight until 2000
when I stopped racing. Even at 195# I was never competitive if the road
went uphil more than about 1/4 mile, bike racing is a sport for
flyweights. Indurain is my height and he raced at about 170 lbs; I'd
have had to have a leg amputated to get down to that weight. Gradually
my weight has crept up to 230# and it is now time to do something about
that. My IBW is up to 205# so I am 25# overweight- just about average
mild obesity. I may try the WW thing myself, since I am already
familiar with it and it's not very complicated.

On 12/17/2017 1:50 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 16:03:18 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote:
John B. wrote:
On Sat, 16 Dec 2017 22:31:59 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 12/16/2017 8:58 PM, John B. wrote:


If one wants to get scientific, my guess is that the average guy
posting has well over 10% body weight as fat, in fact I read that
the *average* Usian is 23 lbs over his "ideal body weight" (which
totally ignores tissue make up).

(Note: I an excepting James from this as I believe that he is still
maintaining his lean body mass near optimum).

So, to be scientific, lets say, "You'd be far, far better off
getting rid of 15 - 20 lbs of that stuff hanging over your belt,
before you start buying new tires.... its cheaper too :-)

I think the difference is: For most of us here, buying new tires is
possible. In fact, it's easy.

Losing 20 pounds, on the other hand...

Geeze Frank, losing weight is probably the easiest thing that a
person can do..... Just keep your mouth closed :-)

This forum is often a shining example of exactly how hard it is to
"just keep your mouth closed".

LOL! Well, the internet in general falls into that.

I am reminded of a quote attrinuted to Miles Davis in the mid 1950s.
John Coltrane was in the first great quintet of Miles's and famous for
playing on and on. At the end of one take, Miles chastized him and
Trane replied "Sorry, man, I couldn't figure out how to stop." Miles
replied "take the horn out of your mouth."

Speaking of weight loss and not meaning to shound like a shill, my wife
had great results with Weigh****chers. She started that in 1999 or 2000
and lost over 50#, which she has basically kept off since (+/- 10#).
That's in contrast to me; I hit 250 lbs in 1990 and got a severe lecture
from my doc (family history of diabetes, heart disease, etc.). Just by
eating less stupidly and resuming riding my bike, which I had left idle
for a year or two after moving to the Big City, I lost 55# in about a
year. I started racing in 1992 and maintained that weight until 2000
when I stopped racing. Even at 195# I was never competitive if the road
went uphil more than about 1/4 mile, bike racing is a sport for
flyweights. Indurain is my height and he raced at about 170 lbs; I'd
have had to have a leg amputated to get down to that weight. Gradually
my weight has crept up to 230# and it is now time to do something about
that. My IBW is up to 205# so I am 25# overweight- just about average
mild obesity. I may try the WW thing myself, since I am already
familiar with it and it's not very complicated.

When I was a young faculty member, I went to a free faculty fitness
workshop put on by the Human Performance & Exercise Science faculty. One
lecturer said "The average American gains one pound per year." The
assembled professors showed no reaction. The guy said "No, think about
that. What are you going to weigh in 30 years?"

I've gained weight since then, but only about seven pounds, IIRC. For
me, one key was eating zero to minimum lunch. And lately, I try to
reduce the late-night snacks.

I say that as I type with greasy fingers from potato chips and drink a
beer. Hey, we just had friends over for a party. Can't waste the
leftover snacks!


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sunday, December 17, 2017 at 7:59:48 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/17/2017 1:50 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 16:03:18 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote:
John B. wrote:
On Sat, 16 Dec 2017 22:31:59 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 12/16/2017 8:58 PM, John B. wrote:


If one wants to get scientific, my guess is that the average guy
posting has well over 10% body weight as fat, in fact I read that
the *average* Usian is 23 lbs over his "ideal body weight" (which
totally ignores tissue make up).

(Note: I an excepting James from this as I believe that he is still
maintaining his lean body mass near optimum).

So, to be scientific, lets say, "You'd be far, far better off
getting rid of 15 - 20 lbs of that stuff hanging over your belt,
before you start buying new tires.... its cheaper too :-)

I think the difference is: For most of us here, buying new tires is
possible. In fact, it's easy.

Losing 20 pounds, on the other hand...

Geeze Frank, losing weight is probably the easiest thing that a
person can do..... Just keep your mouth closed :-)

This forum is often a shining example of exactly how hard it is to
"just keep your mouth closed".

LOL! Well, the internet in general falls into that.

I am reminded of a quote attrinuted to Miles Davis in the mid 1950s.
John Coltrane was in the first great quintet of Miles's and famous for
playing on and on. At the end of one take, Miles chastized him and
Trane replied "Sorry, man, I couldn't figure out how to stop." Miles
replied "take the horn out of your mouth."

Speaking of weight loss and not meaning to shound like a shill, my wife
had great results with Weigh****chers. She started that in 1999 or 2000
and lost over 50#, which she has basically kept off since (+/- 10#).
That's in contrast to me; I hit 250 lbs in 1990 and got a severe lecture
from my doc (family history of diabetes, heart disease, etc.). Just by
eating less stupidly and resuming riding my bike, which I had left idle
for a year or two after moving to the Big City, I lost 55# in about a
year. I started racing in 1992 and maintained that weight until 2000
when I stopped racing. Even at 195# I was never competitive if the road
went uphil more than about 1/4 mile, bike racing is a sport for
flyweights. Indurain is my height and he raced at about 170 lbs; I'd
have had to have a leg amputated to get down to that weight. Gradually
my weight has crept up to 230# and it is now time to do something about
that. My IBW is up to 205# so I am 25# overweight- just about average
mild obesity. I may try the WW thing myself, since I am already
familiar with it and it's not very complicated.

When I was a young faculty member, I went to a free faculty fitness
workshop put on by the Human Performance & Exercise Science faculty. One
lecturer said "The average American gains one pound per year." The
assembled professors showed no reaction. The guy said "No, think about
that. What are you going to weigh in 30 years?"

I've gained weight since then, but only about seven pounds, IIRC. For
me, one key was eating zero to minimum lunch. And lately, I try to
reduce the late-night snacks.

I say that as I type with greasy fingers from potato chips and drink a
beer. Hey, we just had friends over for a party. Can't waste the
leftover snacks!

I weigh about the same as I did 30 years ago, but my body fat percentage is way higher. Besides weight gain, loss of muscle mass is a big issue for old folks, unless you go for testosterone and HGH injections. I'm on the slow skid towards chicken legs. I'm looking for magic pills on the internet . .. . or a time machine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3LHAlcrTRA

== Jay Beattie.

-- Jay Beattie.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 22:59:43 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 12/17/2017 1:50 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 16:03:18 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote:
John B. wrote:
On Sat, 16 Dec 2017 22:31:59 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 12/16/2017 8:58 PM, John B. wrote:


If one wants to get scientific, my guess is that the average guy
posting has well over 10% body weight as fat, in fact I read that
the *average* Usian is 23 lbs over his "ideal body weight" (which
totally ignores tissue make up).

(Note: I an excepting James from this as I believe that he is still
maintaining his lean body mass near optimum).

So, to be scientific, lets say, "You'd be far, far better off
getting rid of 15 - 20 lbs of that stuff hanging over your belt,
before you start buying new tires.... its cheaper too :-)

I think the difference is: For most of us here, buying new tires is
possible. In fact, it's easy.

Losing 20 pounds, on the other hand...

Geeze Frank, losing weight is probably the easiest thing that a
person can do..... Just keep your mouth closed :-)

This forum is often a shining example of exactly how hard it is to
"just keep your mouth closed".

LOL! Well, the internet in general falls into that.

I am reminded of a quote attrinuted to Miles Davis in the mid 1950s.
John Coltrane was in the first great quintet of Miles's and famous for
playing on and on. At the end of one take, Miles chastized him and
Trane replied "Sorry, man, I couldn't figure out how to stop." Miles
replied "take the horn out of your mouth."

Speaking of weight loss and not meaning to shound like a shill, my wife
had great results with Weigh****chers. She started that in 1999 or 2000
and lost over 50#, which she has basically kept off since (+/- 10#).
That's in contrast to me; I hit 250 lbs in 1990 and got a severe lecture
from my doc (family history of diabetes, heart disease, etc.). Just by
eating less stupidly and resuming riding my bike, which I had left idle
for a year or two after moving to the Big City, I lost 55# in about a
year. I started racing in 1992 and maintained that weight until 2000
when I stopped racing. Even at 195# I was never competitive if the road
went uphil more than about 1/4 mile, bike racing is a sport for
flyweights. Indurain is my height and he raced at about 170 lbs; I'd
have had to have a leg amputated to get down to that weight. Gradually
my weight has crept up to 230# and it is now time to do something about
that. My IBW is up to 205# so I am 25# overweight- just about average
mild obesity. I may try the WW thing myself, since I am already
familiar with it and it's not very complicated.

When I was a young faculty member, I went to a free faculty fitness
workshop put on by the Human Performance & Exercise Science faculty. One
lecturer said "The average American gains one pound per year." The
assembled professors showed no reaction. The guy said "No, think about
that. What are you going to weigh in 30 years?"

I've gained weight since then, but only about seven pounds, IIRC. For
me, one key was eating zero to minimum lunch. And lately, I try to
reduce the late-night snacks.

I say that as I type with greasy fingers from potato chips and drink a
beer. Hey, we just had friends over for a party. Can't waste the
leftover snacks!

The solution is quite simple. Energy in versus energy out.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sunday, December 17, 2017 at 9:32:11 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, December 17, 2017 at 7:59:48 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/17/2017 1:50 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 16:03:18 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote:
John B. wrote:
On Sat, 16 Dec 2017 22:31:59 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 12/16/2017 8:58 PM, John B. wrote:


If one wants to get scientific, my guess is that the average guy
posting has well over 10% body weight as fat, in fact I read that
the *average* Usian is 23 lbs over his "ideal body weight" (which
totally ignores tissue make up).

(Note: I an excepting James from this as I believe that he is still
maintaining his lean body mass near optimum).

So, to be scientific, lets say, "You'd be far, far better off
getting rid of 15 - 20 lbs of that stuff hanging over your belt,
before you start buying new tires.... its cheaper too :-)

I think the difference is: For most of us here, buying new tires is
possible. In fact, it's easy.

Losing 20 pounds, on the other hand...

Geeze Frank, losing weight is probably the easiest thing that a
person can do..... Just keep your mouth closed :-)

This forum is often a shining example of exactly how hard it is to
"just keep your mouth closed".

LOL! Well, the internet in general falls into that.

I am reminded of a quote attrinuted to Miles Davis in the mid 1950s.
John Coltrane was in the first great quintet of Miles's and famous for
playing on and on. At the end of one take, Miles chastized him and
Trane replied "Sorry, man, I couldn't figure out how to stop." Miles
replied "take the horn out of your mouth."

Speaking of weight loss and not meaning to shound like a shill, my wife
had great results with Weigh****chers. She started that in 1999 or 2000
and lost over 50#, which she has basically kept off since (+/- 10#).
That's in contrast to me; I hit 250 lbs in 1990 and got a severe lecture
from my doc (family history of diabetes, heart disease, etc.). Just by
eating less stupidly and resuming riding my bike, which I had left idle
for a year or two after moving to the Big City, I lost 55# in about a
year. I started racing in 1992 and maintained that weight until 2000
when I stopped racing. Even at 195# I was never competitive if the road
went uphil more than about 1/4 mile, bike racing is a sport for
flyweights. Indurain is my height and he raced at about 170 lbs; I'd
have had to have a leg amputated to get down to that weight. Gradually
my weight has crept up to 230# and it is now time to do something about
that. My IBW is up to 205# so I am 25# overweight- just about average
mild obesity. I may try the WW thing myself, since I am already
familiar with it and it's not very complicated.

When I was a young faculty member, I went to a free faculty fitness
workshop put on by the Human Performance & Exercise Science faculty. One
lecturer said "The average American gains one pound per year." The
assembled professors showed no reaction. The guy said "No, think about
that. What are you going to weigh in 30 years?"

I've gained weight since then, but only about seven pounds, IIRC. For
me, one key was eating zero to minimum lunch. And lately, I try to
reduce the late-night snacks.

I say that as I type with greasy fingers from potato chips and drink a
beer. Hey, we just had friends over for a party. Can't waste the
leftover snacks!

I weigh about the same as I did 30 years ago, but my body fat percentage is way higher. Besides weight gain, loss of muscle mass is a big issue for old folks, unless you go for testosterone and HGH injections. I'm on the slow skid towards chicken legs. I'm looking for magic pills on the internet .. . . or a time machine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3LHAlcrTRA

== Jay Beattie.

-- Jay Beattie.

-- Jay Beattie.

try whey

On Mon, 18 Dec 2017 12:25:34 +0700, John B wrote:
On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 22:59:43 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

When I was a young faculty member, I went to a free faculty fitness
workshop put on by the Human Performance & Exercise Science faculty.
One lecturer said "The average American gains one pound per year." The
assembled professors showed no reaction. The guy said "No, think about
that. What are you going to weigh in 30 years?"

I've gained weight since then, but only about seven pounds, IIRC. For
me, one key was eating zero to minimum lunch. And lately, I try to
reduce the late-night snacks.

I say that as I type with greasy fingers from potato chips and drink a
beer. Hey, we just had friends over for a party. Can't waste the
leftover snacks!

The solution is quite simple. Energy in versus energy out.

Not quite. The loss of muscle mass, especially after age 50, is
dramatic. No only are we gaining an averag eof a pound of fat a year,
we're probably also losing an average of a pound of muscle a year. Fo
most people that mass loss occurs in the legs, reducing strength and by
one's 80s adversely affecting the ability to walk, climb stairs, stand
up from a chair, get in and out of cars, prevent falls, etc. I've been
working in ursing homes since 1990 and have seen this as one of the most
common underlying causes of temporary and permanent placement- loss of
leg strength resulting in adverse outcomes.

Bicyclists probably have less leg strength and muscle mass loss than
most other people (skiers, hikers and runners probably maintain better,
too). Strength training is an important tool for preventing these
losses. If you want to improve your odds of staying out of the nursing
home in the future, keep those muscles strong! Instead of having half
the strength at 80 than you had at 30, aim to have 85% of that strength.
Your quality of life will be hugely better. Yoga can help with your
balance and flexibility. Cycling will help everything else.