Brandt on soldred/tied spoking

Subject: Tied and Soldered Wheels
From: Jobst Brandt
Date: December 16, 1996

While writing The Bicycle Wheel, to conclusively determine what effect tying and soldering of spoke crossings in a wheel had, I asked Wheelsmith to lend me an untied pair of standard 36-spoke rear wheels, on Campagnolo low and high flange hubs. I had an inner body of a freewheel machined with flats so that a wheel could be clamped into the vise of a Bridgeport milling machine while the left end of its axle was held in the quill.

With the hub rigidly secured, with its axle vertical, dial gauges were mounted at four equally spaced locations on the machine bed to measure rim deflections as a 35lb weight was sequentially hung on the wheel at these positions. The deflections were recorded for each location and averaged for each wheel before and after tying and soldering spokes.

The wheels were also measured for torsional rigidity in the same fixture, by a wire anchored in the valve hole and wrapped around the rim so that a 35-lb force could be applied tangential to the rim. Dial gauges located at two places 90 degrees apart in the quadrant away from the applied load were used to measure relative rotation between the wheel and hub.

Upon repeating the measurements after tying and soldering the spokes, no perceptible change, other than random measurement noise of a few thousandths of an inch, was detected. The spokes were tied and soldered by Wheelsmith, which did this as a regular service. The data were collected by an engineer who did not know what I expected to find. I set up the experiment and delivered the wheels.




That's what I have remembered from the heated discussion. Reason trumped.

On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 8:05:44 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Subject: Tied and Soldered Wheels
From: Jobst Brandt
Date: December 16, 1996

While writing The Bicycle Wheel, to conclusively determine what effect tying and soldering of spoke crossings in a wheel had, I asked Wheelsmith to lend me an untied pair of standard 36-spoke rear wheels, on Campagnolo low and high flange hubs. I had an inner body of a freewheel machined with flats so that a wheel could be clamped into the vise of a Bridgeport milling machine while the left end of its axle was held in the quill.

With the hub rigidly secured, with its axle vertical, dial gauges were mounted at four equally spaced locations on the machine bed to measure rim deflections as a 35lb weight was sequentially hung on the wheel at these positions. The deflections were recorded for each location and averaged for each wheel before and after tying and soldering spokes.

The wheels were also measured for torsional rigidity in the same fixture, by a wire anchored in the valve hole and wrapped around the rim so that a 35-lb force could be applied tangential to the rim. Dial gauges located at two places 90 degrees apart in the quadrant away from the applied load were used to measure relative rotation between the wheel and hub.

Upon repeating the measurements after tying and soldering the spokes, no perceptible change, other than random measurement noise of a few thousandths of an inch, was detected. The spokes were tied and soldered by Wheelsmith, which did this as a regular service. The data were collected by an engineer who did not know what I expected to find. I set up the experiment and delivered the wheels.




That's what I have remembered from the heated discussion. Reason trumped.

88888888888888888888888888

SO FAR, there are 8 members of RBT, who read.

HERE'S ONE FRESH IN

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/m...m-a-sea-snail/

claims based on size.....then claim is made for large structures. !?

great teeth tho...Mull Holland

How is Jobst doing? Has anybody heard anything?

On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 8:05:44 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Subject: Tied and Soldered Wheels
From: Jobst Brandt
Date: December 16, 1996

While writing The Bicycle Wheel, to conclusively determine what effect tying and soldering of spoke crossings in a wheel had, I asked Wheelsmith to lend me an untied pair of standard 36-spoke rear wheels, on Campagnolo low and high flange hubs. I had an inner body of a freewheel machined with flats so that a wheel could be clamped into the vise of a Bridgeport milling machine while the left end of its axle was held in the quill.

With the hub rigidly secured, with its axle vertical, dial gauges were mounted at four equally spaced locations on the machine bed to measure rim deflections as a 35lb weight was sequentially hung on the wheel at these positions. The deflections were recorded for each location and averaged for each wheel before and after tying and soldering spokes.

The wheels were also measured for torsional rigidity in the same fixture, by a wire anchored in the valve hole and wrapped around the rim so that a 35-lb force could be applied tangential to the rim. Dial gauges located at two places 90 degrees apart in the quadrant away from the applied load were used to measure relative rotation between the wheel and hub.

Upon repeating the measurements after tying and soldering the spokes, no perceptible change, other than random measurement noise of a few thousandths of an inch, was detected. The spokes were tied and soldered by Wheelsmith, which did this as a regular service. The data were collected by an engineer who did not know what I expected to find. I set up the experiment and delivered the wheels.




That's what I have remembered from the heated discussion. Reason trumped.

On 2/22/2015 3:58 AM, Earls61 wrote:
How is Jobst doing? Has anybody heard anything?

snip

At work, I know someone who knows him slightly. All I heard was that he
has a caretaker.

Think about the choices you make and the implications.

And remember, tying and soldering was never about static torsional rigidity.

On Sun, 22 Feb 2015 03:58:24 -0800 (PST), Earls61
wrote:

How is Jobst doing? Has anybody heard anything?

On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 8:05:44 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Subject: Tied and Soldered Wheels
From: Jobst Brandt
Date: December 16, 1996

While writing The Bicycle Wheel, to conclusively determine what effect tying and soldering of spoke crossings in a wheel had, I asked Wheelsmith to lend me an untied pair of standard 36-spoke rear wheels, on Campagnolo low and high flange hubs. I had an inner body of a freewheel machined with flats so that a wheel could be clamped into the vise of a Bridgeport milling machine while the left end of its axle was held in the quill.

With the hub rigidly secured, with its axle vertical, dial gauges were mounted at four equally spaced locations on the machine bed to measure rim deflections as a 35lb weight was sequentially hung on the wheel at these positions. The deflections were recorded for each location and averaged for each wheel before and after tying and soldering spokes.

The wheels were also measured for torsional rigidity in the same fixture, by a wire anchored in the valve hole and wrapped around the rim so that a 35-lb force could be applied tangential to the rim. Dial gauges located at two places 90 degrees apart in the quadrant away from the applied load were used to measure relative rotation between the wheel and hub.

Upon repeating the measurements after tying and soldering the spokes, no perceptible change, other than random measurement noise of a few thousandths of an inch, was detected. The spokes were tied and soldered by Wheelsmith, which did this as a regular service. The data were collected by an engineer who did not know what I expected to find. I set up the experiment and delivered the wheels.




That's what I have remembered from the heated discussion. Reason trumped.

Yes, that is what Brandt wrote and I'm sure that is what Brandt did to
prove his thesis.

But what would have happened if a larger force had been applied? After
all, what physical law says that the only force that will ever be
applied to a bicycle wheel is 35 lbs. (15.90 Kg.)? For example, I
weigh ~65 Kg (on a good day) and the bicycle I ride weighs 13 Kg. so,
given that a bi-cycle has two wheels, the wheels, must each support a
static load of at least 39 Kg. (85.8 Lbs.) which is magnified somewhat
when one hits a bump at say 25 KPH.

Would have applying, say double Brandt's test weight, resulted in
different results? Or even better, applying a series of weights
ranging from say one ounce to sufficient to cause the wheel to fail.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 22 Feb 2015 05:52:02 -0800, sms
wrote:
On 2/22/2015 3:58 AM, Earls61 wrote:
How is Jobst doing? Has anybody heard anything?

snip

At work, I know someone who knows him slightly. All I heard was that
he has a caretaker.

Think about the choices you make and the implications.

The implication being...?

And remember, tying and soldering was never about static torsional
rigidity.

Tying and soldering was about misunderstnding how wheels work and why
spokes were tied and soldered in the first place (to keep them from
flopping around in the drive wheel of a penny-farthing in case of
breakage).

On Mon, 23 Feb 2015 09:01:37 +0700, John B Slocomb
wrote:

Would have applying, say double Brandt's test weight, resulted in
different results? Or even better, applying a series of weights
ranging from say one ounce to sufficient to cause the wheel to fail.

Nothing different. The wire used in tying and soldering has such low
tensile strength that it is easily broken; solder too has very low
stength and is easiy broken. There is virtually movement at the spoke
crossings, as is testified to by noticing that the spokes are often
slightly stuck together at the crossing point.

This is a dog that never did hunt but we keep trying to make it out to
be a wolf-killer.

The implication being...?



https://www.google.com/#q=jobst brandt

Andretti had a similar accident. Go figure.

On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 8:32:28 AM UTC-5, wrote:
The implication being...?



https://www.google.com/#q=jobst brandt

Andretti had a similar accident. Go figure.

I have not reviewed the literature on this but my experience paralleling Jobst's as I'm 70 this year.
We have to cut back with reason. No X country skiing..no uphill MTB racing....no sustained over 125 heart rates for more than an hour or so...
recognizing lower control levels for your reflex's and reflex patterns is important. Visual capacity, our primary nervous system into the brain, activates reflex patterns for example POTHOLE AVOIDANCE or SKID CONTROL.
When in a 20-35 age group, patterns learned-go cart racing/MTBmotorcycle from 7-20 are automatic even practicing these skills is somewhat automatic.
As we age past 50 we 'forget' these automatic skills forgetting that we have forgotten them or had hem and in that forget to practice these once automatic skills.
When the pothole appears . we see it too late and then the automatic system is no longer automatic. We crash an aging body, the body breaks and zapppppp career ends.