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Chain Lube?



 
 
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  #101  
Old November 21st 18, 05:30 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 447
Default Chain Lube?

On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 3:51:00 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 08:52:17 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Sunday, November 18, 2018 at 4:57:31 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 16:18:41 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Sunday, November 18, 2018 at 4:02:50 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 10:35:49 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Saturday, November 17, 2018 at 3:40:25 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 12:25:25 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 11/15/2018 1:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I missed the part that referred back to your original suggestion of
using Dow Molykote D-321 R Dry Film lubricant. However, I prefer to
debate the current point of contention: Will a solvent carrier
transport grease into a chain link (without boiling in oil or pressure
injection)?

Yes. That's how commercial chain lubricants are formulated. The solvent
carrier carries the lubricant onto the pins and rollers.

"PJ1 Black Label is designed for standard non-”O”ring chains. PJ1 Black
Label has a foaming action that penetrates pins and rollers as well as
lubricating the rollers, sprocket and side plates. After penetrating the
inside of the chain, PJ1 Black Label chain lube becomes a sticky
lubricant that bounces back or has a “memory” effect that withstands the
continual mechanical stress of the chain."

For a very thick solid lubricant like wax, it has to be thinned by
heating to penetrate. It now appears that people that use wax also add
oil to the mixture because wax alone doesn't last very long. Perhaps in
the future they'll decide that the oil alone is sufficient. But probably
not. Tradition. It's like people that still change their car's oil every
3000 miles. It's just not possible to make them understand that it does
not provide any advantage. It's called "recreational oil changing" just
as waxing a chain is called "recreational chain waxing."

I remember you mentioning this "foaming action" several times before,
but I am wondering exactly how this "foaming action" forces oil
through the narrow passageway between the side plates. After all we
are talking about a passageway that is very narrow with ambient
pressure on one side and The Lord only knows what pressure on the
other. What contains the tiny little bubbles in the foam that allows
them to apply sufficient pressure to force themselves down into the
dark and dismal depths of the chain?

After all when a glass of beer is served with a head of foam the foam
doesn't seem to exert sufficient pressure to force itself down into
the beer, quite the opposite in fact, the foam seems to rise to the
top.

I might also comment that, in the gas and oil industry, producers
spend considerable time and effort to de-gas, i.e. remove the foam,
from oil before forcing it down a pipeline.

As an aside, can you provide any reference from a reliable source that
describes using a wax as a chain lube as being "recreational chain
waxing"?

After all Frank provided a reference from a source that seems to be
the "last word" in measuring friction losses in the bicycle world that
stated that the lowest losses were from using a wax lubricated chain,
that described in detain how the test was made.
cheers,

John B.

John, the popping of the bubbles that compose the foam puts a pressure inside the foam where it contacts the rollers. I'm not one to have a great deal of faith in this but it does appear to be plenty of lube everywhere including your chainstay and everyone within a yard of the operation.

I'm not sure that this explanation is valid in that a bubble contains
pressure inside the bubble but can only apply pressure outside the
bubble if it is contained in some manner. Think of a balloon. Blow it
up and then it simply floats around bumping into things and doesn't
penetrate a bit. Or, as in my original post, bubbles in a glass of
beer... or for those in an upper financial bracket, bubbles in a glass
of champagne.



The best I've used is Rock and Roll. This contains a Teflon lubricant
in a solvent. You roll the chain and liberally spray the stuff on the
chain/rear cassette for several revolutions of the chain. The solvent
washes off the dirt and old lubricant. You then use a cloth to wipe as
much of the chain dry as possible and then allow the chain to dry
overnight. The Teflon penetrates between the rollers and the solvent
evaporates overnight. So you have a clean chain that actually does
have lubrication that you can actually feel and it is dry so the chain
doesn't pick up dirt or leave muck on the chain rings and cogs. Of
course this stuff is as expensive as gold and you have to use it
fairly often to clean everything.

Amazon has R&R Gold for $6.66 for 4 oz.
cheers,

John B.

John, you don't seem to have the engineering concept. A lubricant bubble doesn't "bounce" off of anything. If the chain is dry each bubble progressive pops and wets and area. The next bubble floats along this lubricated surface until it in turn reaches an unlubricated surface etc. The bubbles are similar to your balloon idea save they have a very weak surface tension which is disturbed by anything other than the lubricant itself.

Fine, I can agree with that but the idea that bubbles, for some
reason, aid in forcing the lubricant into cracks and crevices is, at
least in the descriptions offered to date, seems to be a factor of
advertising not reality.



Only about one part in eight of Rock and Roll is Teflon (the actual lubricant). A four ounce bottle is good for at the most, two application of a clean chain or one of a dirty one. I'd say that makes it expensive, wouldn't you?

Gee, I don't know. In a previous post I offered the suggestion that
cyclists probably shouldn't talk about prices and quoted TREK's prices
to their top road and mountain bikes - $12,000 and $9,000 if I
remember. And certainly TREK wouldn't be making them if they couldn't
sell them.

$6.66 on a $12,000 bicycle sounds like chicken feed.

cheers,

John B.


John, how much have you paid for chain lube over the last year? I bought the 16 ounce bottle of Rock and Roll two years ago.


Over the last year? Nothing!

You see, I've been using hot wax for about 4 years now and while, yes,
I bought some blocks of wax 4 years ago, or about that, I haven't
spent a penny since.

But, according to your own statement, as you say a 4 oz bottle is good
for two applications then a 16 oz bottle must be good for about 8
applications so the fact that you apparently didn't ride your bike a
great deal last year is reflected in your savings on chain oil..... to
carry that to an extreme if you didn't ride your bike at all last year
you'd have spent the same on chain lube that I did.

By gorry! You've discovered something. "Save your money kids, stop
riding your bike."


My lack of buying any more chain lube is because I have an entire shelf full of the difference lubes I've used in an attempt to test everything. The Rock and Roll is the only one that seems effective but I hesitate to throw out bottles of liquid gold.
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  #102  
Old November 21st 18, 05:40 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 447
Default Chain Lube?

On Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 3:50:14 PM UTC-8, sms wrote:
On 11/19/2018 12:06 PM, wrote:
On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 9:45:31 AM UTC-8, sms wrote:
On 11/19/2018 8:56 AM,
wrote:

snip

"The “King of Lubes” has three chain lubes: The EXTREME,
ABSOLUTE DRY, and GOLD. All three are formulated to clean and lube at the same time when applied. "

Not sure if I believe this. It's like combined shampoo and conditioner..

I suppose that I'll continue with the old-school method of cleaning a
chain with petroleum based solvent and then lubricating it with chain lube.

With a chain cleaner, I can clean a chain five minutes or so and then
recycle dirty solvent.


Well, I didn't believe it either but after trying it, it appears to work pretty well but you're wiping off the chain for a long time after using the stuff.


The issue is that it takes several solvent changes before the solvent
runs clean.

From my web site on chain cleaning and lubrication:

Why is this method the best?

1. The links are in motion as the pass through the solvent, with the
rollers spinning and the links flexing. You cannot obtain this sort of
link action with the chain off the bike in a bottle of solvent, or in a
parts cleaner. As Sheldon Brown writes, "The on-the-bike system has the
advantage that the cleaning machine flexes the links and spins the
rollers. This scrubbing action may do a better job of cleaning the innards."

2. The chain gets cleaner with each repetition of the process, with the
dirty solvent removed, the contaminants don't remain in the process.

3.Solvents such as kerosene do not leave rust-causing moisture in the
chain like water-based solvents do.

4. Keeping the chain on the bicycle eliminates weakening the chain by
rivet extraction. As Sheldon Brown writes, "...modern chains have rivets
that are tighter fitting into the chain plates. The new rivets are
difficult to remove and reinstall without damaging either the rivet or
the side plate."

5. It requires very little time.

6. The Chain Master avoids spattering solvent on the wheel and tire.


The Park chain cleaner really isn't all that effective. You end up replacing the solvent several times even on what looks like a clean chain. And the end result is a chain that is so dry that you have a hard time making sure that it is completely lubricated. I had some "Teflon" lube from some company or another and would put one drop on each link. Very time consuming and usually the chain would be noisy and wear much faster. So I switched to IRC Gold chain which at the time was advertised as never having to be lubed for the life of the chain. Well they changed that advertisement directly after I paid through the nose for three of them. I still have one on the shelf and it weighs twice as much as my Campy chain.
  #104  
Old November 22nd 18, 01:54 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Posts: 8,342
Default Chain Lube?

On 11/21/2018 8:40 AM, wrote:

snip

The Park chain cleaner really isn't all that effective. You end up replacing the solvent several times even on what looks like a clean chain. And the end result is a chain that is so dry that you have a hard time making sure that it is completely lubricated. I had some "Teflon" lube from some company or another and would put one drop on each link. Very time consuming and usually the chain would be noisy and wear much faster. So I switched to IRC Gold chain which at the time was advertised as never having to be lubed for the life of the chain. Well they changed that advertisement directly after I paid through the nose for three of them. I still have one on the shelf and it weighs twice as much as my Campy chain.


Yes, with any of the chain cleaning devices you end up cleaning out all
the gunk as well as all of the lubricant and you end up with a "dry chain."

You need to use a lubricant that penetrates into the chain and onto the
pins and rollers, not one where you drip it onto the outside of the
chain but where it doesn't penetrate inside.

I use a foaming non-O-ring chain lubricant. Unsurprisingly, lubricating
your chain with a chain lubricant that has an evaporative carrier
designed to carry the lubricant into the chain is what works well. Of
course removing the chain and soaking it in a thin lubricant, perhaps
heated oil, also works, but is too much trouble.

  #105  
Old November 22nd 18, 02:16 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_4_]
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Posts: 1,388
Default Chain Lube?

John B. slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:44:19 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:42:07 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

snip
As for bike maintenance? Well I learned that when I was 12 years old
and got my first (second hand) bike.


cheers,

John B.




Sure like most people here. Except I was maybe 8 or 9. But if I used the
same maintenance procedures on my 11 speed double as I did on my first bike
I’d be buying a lot of chains and cassettes.


I'm a classic case of the old story" "When I was a boy my father was
so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when
I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned."
When I was 9 or 10 years old I learned to ride a bicycle by coasting
down my friend's driveway and when I was about 12 I coerced my father
into buying me a second, third, who know's, hand bike whereupon he
told me that he was buying but I had to "take care of it".


Odd but I had the same experience with my father’s late learning.

To make a long story short, the "coaster" brake didn't work very well
so I fixed it.... consider how many times a 12 year old kid had to
dis-assemble and assemble a coaster brake before it worked right?


One of my first comp sci profs asked me if I knew Macs. I told him I could
take them apart and put them back together. I’ll tell you the same thing
he told me. It’s good to be handy.

Yeah, my point was that things changed since then. Oiling a chain twice a
month may have been good maintenance then.


cheers,

John B.






--
duane
  #106  
Old November 22nd 18, 04:37 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 90
Default Chain Lube?

On Thu, 22 Nov 2018 01:16:30 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:44:19 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:42:07 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

snip
As for bike maintenance? Well I learned that when I was 12 years old
and got my first (second hand) bike.


cheers,

John B.




Sure like most people here. Except I was maybe 8 or 9. But if I used the
same maintenance procedures on my 11 speed double as I did on my first bike
I?d be buying a lot of chains and cassettes.


I'm a classic case of the old story" "When I was a boy my father was
so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when
I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned."
When I was 9 or 10 years old I learned to ride a bicycle by coasting
down my friend's driveway and when I was about 12 I coerced my father
into buying me a second, third, who know's, hand bike whereupon he
told me that he was buying but I had to "take care of it".


Odd but I had the same experience with my fathers late learning.

To make a long story short, the "coaster" brake didn't work very well
so I fixed it.... consider how many times a 12 year old kid had to
dis-assemble and assemble a coaster brake before it worked right?


One of my first comp sci profs asked me if I knew Macs. I told him I could
take them apart and put them back together. Ill tell you the same thing
he told me. Its good to be handy.

Yeah, my point was that things changed since then. Oiling a chain twice a
month may have been good maintenance then.


I've always reckoned that the proper interval for chain lubeing was
"when it was needed" :-)
--

Cheers,

John B.
  #107  
Old November 23rd 18, 11:21 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 447
Default Chain Lube?

On Wednesday, November 21, 2018 at 5:16:32 PM UTC-8, Duane wrote:
John B. slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:44:19 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:42:07 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

snip
As for bike maintenance? Well I learned that when I was 12 years old
and got my first (second hand) bike.


cheers,

John B.




Sure like most people here. Except I was maybe 8 or 9. But if I used the
same maintenance procedures on my 11 speed double as I did on my first bike
I’d be buying a lot of chains and cassettes.


I'm a classic case of the old story" "When I was a boy my father was
so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when
I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned."
When I was 9 or 10 years old I learned to ride a bicycle by coasting
down my friend's driveway and when I was about 12 I coerced my father
into buying me a second, third, who know's, hand bike whereupon he
told me that he was buying but I had to "take care of it".


Odd but I had the same experience with my father’s late learning.

To make a long story short, the "coaster" brake didn't work very well
so I fixed it.... consider how many times a 12 year old kid had to
dis-assemble and assemble a coaster brake before it worked right?


One of my first comp sci profs asked me if I knew Macs. I told him I could
take them apart and put them back together. I’ll tell you the same thing
he told me. It’s good to be handy.

Yeah, my point was that things changed since then. Oiling a chain twice a
month may have been good maintenance then.


cheers,


--
duane


My father was a railway clerk for the Southern Pacific and I was always in aw of what he could teach himself in so short a time. He could only afford old used cars so he bought a Motors Manual and almost overnight could disassemble and reassemble anything on the car. They made hand written reports and when they had to learn to make typewritten reports he learned to two finger typewrite faster than I've ever been able to use two hands. They used a telegraph to communicate between stations and from across the room he learned how to telegraph by listening and then reading the reports after they had been sent. And that telegrapher could send 40 wpm! Of course really good guys could send more than 300 wpm but then that was using speed keys and automatic tape readers.

He wanted to add a couple of rooms on to our house and his cousin was a carpenter. The cousin came over and they framed the house and then Dad roofed, walled and completed the wall board interior better than the house I live in now. He then built a complete backyard shed the size of a cabin that was missing only the plumbing to be a rental if he had wanted to.

He had been an amateur boxer that had never lost a round let alone a match. Even when he was in his 50's and dying with emphysema I was with him with me sitting in the restaurant side of the place and him at the bar. Three punks were bothering some old guy at the other end of the bar because he didn't have any teeth. They ere pretty nasty about it. Finally my father told them that was enough and they smarted off to him. He walked around the bar and knocked all three down with one punch apiece and they got up and ran out..

His weakness was that he smoked heavily and when he wasn't working he was a drunk. I think I inherited his ability to look at something and understand it almost immediately.
  #108  
Old November 23rd 18, 11:28 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 447
Default Chain Lube?

On Tuesday, November 13, 2018 at 8:54:39 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On 14/11/18 9:50 am, John B. slocomb wrote:


As for the rest of your argument, I performed an actual experiment,
rather then just imagining a result. I took an older chain, cleaned it
in solvent with a final wash in MEK, allowed it to dry and then
lubricated it with the above mentioned lube, allowed that to dry and
then, using a chain tool, disassembled several links and yes, the lub
had penetrated the chain and was evident in the rollers and on the
pins. I subsequently did the same thing using my chain wax formula -
much the same as James's mix - and the same thing happened. The hot
wax did penetrate the links


I often put a chain in hot wax/oil with the quick link put together, so
I don't lose it in the mix. Of course I have to undo it to reinstall
the chain on my bicycle, at which point I notice the wax/oil has
penetrated the pins of the quick link very well, so I conclude that it
has penetrated all the other pins and rollers very well too.


I have carefully used a can of bike chain wax. While it does make the chain really quiet and it appears clean for a long time it deposits really hard deposits on the cogs and rings and doesn't seem to slow chain wear at all.
  #109  
Old November 24th 18, 01:55 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 6,404
Default Chain Lube?

On 11/23/2018 5:28 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, November 13, 2018 at 8:54:39 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On 14/11/18 9:50 am, John B. slocomb wrote:


As for the rest of your argument, I performed an actual experiment,
rather then just imagining a result. I took an older chain, cleaned it
in solvent with a final wash in MEK, allowed it to dry and then
lubricated it with the above mentioned lube, allowed that to dry and
then, using a chain tool, disassembled several links and yes, the lub
had penetrated the chain and was evident in the rollers and on the
pins. I subsequently did the same thing using my chain wax formula -
much the same as James's mix - and the same thing happened. The hot
wax did penetrate the links


I often put a chain in hot wax/oil with the quick link put together, so
I don't lose it in the mix. Of course I have to undo it to reinstall
the chain on my bicycle, at which point I notice the wax/oil has
penetrated the pins of the quick link very well, so I conclude that it
has penetrated all the other pins and rollers very well too.


I have carefully used a can of bike chain wax. While it does make the chain really quiet and it appears clean for a long time it deposits really hard deposits on the cogs and rings and doesn't seem to slow chain wear at all.


There's data that says otherwise. This article is old, but I think it's
still valid:

https://flic.kr/p/dkUGq6
https://flic.kr/p/dkULS1


--
- Frank Krygowski
 




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