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#101
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Eyc headlight problem
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 3 Apr 2021 15:36:31 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone wrote: Dont tell anybody, but dynamos are alternators. They produce alternating current. Oops. You're right. I was thinking of getting rid of the magnets and replacing them with a field winding to provide some better current regulation. That's one reason why gasoline powered inverter-generators are more efficient than connecting the load directly to the generator. I haven't run any numbers, so I'm not sure if this will work. Thanks. I would have thought that the efficiency advantage of inverter based generators over the older style “hook it up to the generator” type is that the inverter produces a constant 60 Hz regardless of the incoming frequency, which gives you the option of reducing motor speed at low load to reduce frictional losses in the motor when high output power is not required. Older generators are stuck always turning at 3600 RPM or 1800 RPM just to get the frequency right. On a bike, unless you want to build a CVT between the wheel and the dynamo, the prime mover turning at the wrong speed is just something you have to live with. |
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#102
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Eyc headlight problem
On Sat, 3 Apr 2021 10:58:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 4/3/2021 1:45 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: The first thing to do is throw out the "voltage regulator" that reduces output (and decreases efficiency) at high RPM (high frequencies). Replace it with an electronic voltage regulator. It's not clear to me that the built-in voltage regulation represents a loss in efficiency. That is, I don't think the power is being taken from the rider's input by the coils and magnets, then converted to heat by the inductive reactance. My understanding is that what would be increased power at higher speed is simply never produced. Maybe. I need to dig through the available literature and do some testing to see what really happens. You might be correct as drag produced by the dynamo is reduces at high RPM's by the increased frequency which presents a higher inductive reactance. On an output power vs RPM graph, that causes the curve to become "flat" at high RPM's creating an effective output power regulator. In theory, inductive reactances do NOT dissipate power. Only resistances dissipate power. Since the inductance doesn't change, there would be no change in efficiency. However, there are also saturation effects in the inductor (windings) which do dissipate power once the current exceeds the core saturation limit. That should produce heat at high RPM's. If you have time, try spinning the bottle dynamo at a high RPM driven by an electric drill and see of it gets hot. Also, if you have a motor that can drive the dynamo (or just a spinning bicycle wheel), try shorting the load (headlight). My guess(tm) is that the motor or wheel will spin quite easily. Notice the drop in output power at various loads and RPM's. http://pilom.com/BicycleElectronics/Dynamo.htm My guess(tm) is that's mostly core saturation at the high end. I know from private correspondence that David Gordon Wilson (of MIT and _Bicycling Science_) said he was once working on a scheme to produce a constant rpm bike dynamo, but once he understood how they worked, he stopped thinking about his scheme. Cool. Anything you can share? I can think of a variety of CVT (continuously variable transmission) designs that might be suitable. I'm not so sure he gave up because he thought it won't work. My guess(tm) is that it didn't provide a sufficient improvement to justify the cost and complexity. If there was some way to get the dynamo RPM up high enough, an alternator would be a further efficiency improvement. Extra points for a fixed RPM mechanism, where the efficiency is optimized for a narrow range of RPM's. The rotational speed of a bottle dynamo is pretty high! Over 4000 rpm at 12 mph. 4000 RPM is only 66.7 Hz for a single pole and 533 Hz for an 8 pole bottle dynamo. I want to see something in 50KHz range where I can start using ferrite materials instead of powdered iron. However, that will require 31,800 RPM, which is probably not practical. More poles will do it, but that costs more money. Hmmm... Please note that a hybrid battery plus dynamo contrivance would be a far better proposition. At low speeds, the light operates off the battery. At higher speeds (i.e. downhill), where there is power available, it switches to dynamo. In it's spare time, it charges the battery. I strongly, strongly dispute the need for 800 lumens for riding on the road at night. To me that's very similar to saying bicycles should all have motorcycle-duty drive chains and spokes. I think it was Jay Beattie who suggested the 800 lumen number. I merely stole it from him. I agree that 800 lumens probably too much. However, if such a high power dynamo product ever arrives on the market, there will surely be a lumens war among vendors to see who can advertise the largest number. At that time, 800 lumens will reserved for purists and regulatory agencies. -- Jeff Liebermann PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272 Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#103
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Eyc headlight problem
On 4/3/2021 8:36 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Sat, 3 Apr 2021 02:14:42 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone wrote: Since light bulbs dont put out much light at low voltage and tend to die at high voltage (I seem to recall bulb life being inversely proportional to the fourth power of voltage), it was important to try and find a way to produce a constant voltage from a variable speed generator. I beg to differ. As I understand it, the bulb life is thermal problem, not a voltage problem. For example, a halogen light needs to be run a rather high temperature so that the tungsten particles evaporated off the filament are re-deposited back onto the filament, thus giving the halogen bulb a longer life. This doesn't work unless the filament is really hot. Since the temperature of the filament is mostly determined by the power (watts) dissipated in the filament, lamps of equal operating wattage will last about the same number of hours no matter what the voltage. Or more crudely, a 6v 1A lamp running at rated voltage, will last approximately the same number of hours as a 12v 0.5A bulb running at rated voltage, because they both burn the same number of watts and operate at the same temperature. Notice I wrote "approximately". The difference is the surface area of the helical filament. A low voltage filament uses heavier wire than a high voltage filament. Since brightness and tungsten evaporation amount are partially determined by the surface area (for the same wattage), things go non-linear in a hurry. We would probably be using heavy gauge filament wire for maximum surface area if tungsten wasn't so expensive. Where the 4th power rule comes in is where the operating voltage is lowered in order to reduce the current, which reduces the dissipated wattage, which dramatically increases the bulb life. It's not by the 4th power but rather by the 3.5th power: https://www.edn.com/incandescent-lamps-and-service-life/ "Candlepower = (Applied voltage / Rated voltage)3.5 × MSCP or the mean spherical candlepower at the design voltage. From there, Lumens = Candlepower × 4 pi " Reality tends to be more complicated. See the section on Pg 7 "Lamp Life" in: https://www.alliedelec.com/m/d/04fe4bc2ac7e247d70e8e7d88fe48b19.pdf Yes, bulb life is a thermal problem, but filament operating temperature depends on applied voltage. The filament is heated by V^2/R, and cooled by conduction back to the base (linear thermal model) and radiation into free space (fourth power thermal model). Light output is optimized as you get the tungsten closer to the liquid state, which is also, of course when the bulb fails. Incandescent lights produce a colour temperature in the 3000 K range, so I assume the filament is also around that temperature. Tungsten melts at 3687 K, so you can see that the designers of light bulbs don’t have much room to play before the filament liquifies. snip LEDs also have thermal issues. Thermal solutions on higher power automotive LED headlights have elaborate thermal solutions with heat sinks, heat pipes, and even fans. With bicycle lights, the higher-end, higher-power lights use multiple LEDs with a collimated beam to address the thermal issue and will usually use an aluminum case, with fins, as a heat sink. They'll also have a thermal sensor that reduces power to prevent overheating. I once had a cheap high-power LED flashlight where the LED got so hot that it unsoldered itself from the board. I recall many years ago on this board that someone insisted that a big advantage of LEDs was that "...LEDs being solid state electronic devices, not high-temperature bits of super-thin tungsten wire... that they last very close to forever" (see https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/0DBl75y7JFQ/m/7LQK0xc-T8YJ). Well that's true, when an LED is being used as an indicator lamp, operating at only a 5-20 milliamps, but it was not true for LEDs being used for actual lighting. A properly cooled high-power LED is going to last a lot longer than an incandescent bulb, but with most bike lights when that LED does burn out the entire light needs to be replaced. A few early bike lights used replaceable LED lamps, but those added size and complexity. The reality was that managing thermals on an incandescent bulb, where the heat radiated out the front of the light, was a lot simpler than the elaborate LED thermal solutions that are necessary on high-power LED lamps. TDP (thermal design power) used to be something that was of concern mainly for CPUs and graphics processors, now it's a concern on a lot more devices. |
#104
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Eyc headlight problem
On 4/2/2021 10:45 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
snip If there was some way to get the dynamo RPM up high enough, an alternator would be a further efficiency improvement. Uh, have you ever looked at the output of a bicycle dynamo on a scope? They are alternators. I do recall a couple of DC dynamos in the distant past. |
#105
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Eyc headlight problem
On Sat, 3 Apr 2021 16:55:07 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote: Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Sat, 3 Apr 2021 15:36:31 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone wrote: Don?t tell anybody, but dynamos are alternators. They produce alternating current. Oops. You're right. I was thinking of getting rid of the magnets and replacing them with a field winding to provide some better current regulation. That's one reason why gasoline powered inverter-generators are more efficient than connecting the load directly to the generator. I haven't run any numbers, so I'm not sure if this will work. Thanks. I would have thought that the efficiency advantage of inverter based generators over the older style hook it up to the generator type is that the inverter produces a constant 60 Hz regardless of the incoming frequency, which gives you the option of reducing motor speed at low load to reduce frictional losses in the motor when high output power is not required. Older generators are stuck always turning at 3600 RPM or 1800 RPM just to get the frequency right. Agreed. Notice I said "That's one reason...". Variable engine RPM provides lower gasoline consumption at low loads and low RPM's. Also, the noise level is lower at low RPM's. However, the engine efficiency is optimized for about 1/2 the maximum load, which is where the generator is expected to spend most of its time. The inverter efficiency is also load dependent. It's the same problem as solar inverter systems, where both the source and load powers vary continuously. The solar inverter efficiency looks something like this: where they're reasonably efficient between 10% and 100% load. I suspect that an inverter-generator has a similar curve. If a prospective bicycle inverter follows the same curve, then there's going to be a problem at low speeds, which is easily solved by a hybrid battery and dynamo combination, where the battery takes over at low RPM's. On a bike, unless you want to build a CVT between the wheel and the dynamo, the prime mover turning at the wrong speed is just something you have to live with. A CVT is actually quite easy to build if you have disk wheels. Just run a rubber roller wheel dynamo along different radius points on the disk wheel for different RPM. The position of the dynamo will be set by pulley and cable arrangement where the radius point is determined by the dynamo RPM. For slow wheel RPM, the dynamo will move near the tire. For high wheel RPM, the dynamo will be near the hub. Patent pending. -- Jeff Liebermann PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272 Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#106
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Eyc headlight problem
On Sat, 3 Apr 2021 10:22:35 -0700, sms
wrote: On 4/2/2021 10:45 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: snip If there was some way to get the dynamo RPM up high enough, an alternator would be a further efficiency improvement. Uh, have you ever looked at the output of a bicycle dynamo on a scope? They are alternators. I do recall a couple of DC dynamos in the distant past. Sorry, I goofed. Others pointed out my screwup. I was thinking of replacing the magnets with a field winding and was ignoring everything else. Also, it was late (10:45PM) and I was distracted by several computah projects, phone calls, and running email exchanges. -- Jeff Liebermann PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272 Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#107
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Eyc headlight problem
On Saturday, April 3, 2021 at 12:36:34 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Uh, have you ever looked at the output of a bicycle dynamo on a scope? They are alternators. I do recall a couple of DC dynamos in the distant past. Sorry, I goofed. Others pointed out my screwup. I was thinking of replacing the magnets with a field winding and was ignoring everything else. Also, it was late (10:45PM) and I was distracted by several computah projects, phone calls, and running email exchanges. You can count the dynohubs I've seen the insides of on one hand, but they all have the windings on the stator with magnets comprising the rotor. This obviates the need for brushes, which would be a wear/service item. |
#108
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Eyc headlight problem
Steve Weeks wrote:
On Saturday, April 3, 2021 at 12:36:34 PM UTC-5, wrote: Uh, have you ever looked at the output of a bicycle dynamo on a scope? They are alternators. I do recall a couple of DC dynamos in the distant past. Sorry, I goofed. Others pointed out my screwup. I was thinking of replacing the magnets with a field winding and was ignoring everything else. Also, it was late (10:45PM) and I was distracted by several computah projects, phone calls, and running email exchanges. You can count the dynohubs I've seen the insides of on one hand, but they all have the windings on the stator with magnets comprising the rotor. This obviates the need for brushes, which would be a wear/service item. The terminology here starts to get a bit confusing because of course the stator is the stationary bit and the rotor rotates, but in 99.9% of electric motors or generators, the stator is on the outside and the rotor is on the inside, while in dynamo hubs, it’s the other way around. |
#109
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Eyc headlight problem
On 4/3/2021 10:28 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
snip prospective bicycle inverter follows the same curve, then there's going to be a problem at low speeds, which is easily solved by a hybrid battery and dynamo combination, where the battery takes over at low RPM's. Well the growth of the electric bicycle market has created a hybrid whole machine, not just the light. But even on the more expensive models with regenerative braking (i.e. https://www.radpowerbikes.com/products/radcity-electric-commuter-bike) it's not clear if you can charge the battery by pedaling or coasting, or if you can operate the lights when the battery is discharged and you're pedaling. All that the Rad site states is that the regenerative charging starts when you squeeze the brake levers. I think that the bottom line is that no company is likely to invest a lot of money in creating better dynamos to pair with better lamps. We'll see some marginal improvements if LEDs with efficiency of 300 lumens per watt become commercially available at not too exorbitant prices. It would also be nice if some of the higher-end lights had a non-StVZO model with additional features that are not legal in Germany. |
#110
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Eyc headlight problem
On 4/3/2021 12:57 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 3 Apr 2021 10:58:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/3/2021 1:45 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: The first thing to do is throw out the "voltage regulator" that reduces output (and decreases efficiency) at high RPM (high frequencies). Replace it with an electronic voltage regulator. It's not clear to me that the built-in voltage regulation represents a loss in efficiency. That is, I don't think the power is being taken from the rider's input by the coils and magnets, then converted to heat by the inductive reactance. My understanding is that what would be increased power at higher speed is simply never produced. Maybe. I need to dig through the available literature and do some testing to see what really happens. You might be correct as drag produced by the dynamo is reduces at high RPM's by the increased frequency which presents a higher inductive reactance. On an output power vs RPM graph, that causes the curve to become "flat" at high RPM's creating an effective output power regulator. In theory, inductive reactances do NOT dissipate power. Only resistances dissipate power. Since the inductance doesn't change, there would be no change in efficiency. However, there are also saturation effects in the inductor (windings) which do dissipate power once the current exceeds the core saturation limit. That should produce heat at high RPM's. If you have time, try spinning the bottle dynamo at a high RPM driven by an electric drill and see of it gets hot. Several times I've touched the outside of my Union bottle dyno after a long ride. It was never more than very slightly warm. Of course, I was moving so it was losing heat by convection. Also, if you have a motor that can drive the dynamo (or just a spinning bicycle wheel), try shorting the load (headlight). My guess(tm) is that the motor or wheel will spin quite easily. I'm sure I did that some time in the past. I may have notes about it... I know from private correspondence that David Gordon Wilson (of MIT and _Bicycling Science_) said he was once working on a scheme to produce a constant rpm bike dynamo, but once he understood how they worked, he stopped thinking about his scheme. Cool. Anything you can share? No, it was just a brief remark - something like "Oh, I thought they just wasted all the power above 3W. I'll stop thinking about a constant velocity drive." I can think of a variety of CVT (continuously variable transmission) designs that might be suitable. I'm not so sure he gave up because he thought it won't work. My guess(tm) is that it didn't provide a sufficient improvement to justify the cost and complexity. I think that's what we're up against in this entire discussion. The relatively simple systems we have now work very well. It's hard to see how a lot more complexity and expense will pay off. Please note that a hybrid battery plus dynamo contrivance would be a far better proposition. At low speeds, the light operates off the battery. At higher speeds (i.e. downhill), where there is power available, it switches to dynamo. In it's spare time, it charges the battery. From Sheldon Brown's site: https://www.sheldonbrown.com/dynohubs.html " I used to have a Dynohub on a tandem, and the bulb consumption was unacceptable. I solved the problem (and some others) by running the Dyno's output through a full-wave bridge rectifier and then hooking the DC in parallel with a 6 volt (5 x 1.2v cell) nickel cadmium battery. This not only provided light when I was stopped, the Dyno would re-charge the nicads, and, when we went so fast that the voltage rose above 6 volts, the low internal resistance of the nicads sucked up the excess, gaining a bit of extra charge and saving the bulb. "The rectified output of the Dynohub was always connected to the lights. There was no way to turn the light off while in motion. It would have been easy enough to rig a switch for that purpose, but I didn't see the need. The Dynohub has _very_ low drag." (There are other articles there on generators, lights, etc. ) I strongly, strongly dispute the need for 800 lumens for riding on the road at night. To me that's very similar to saying bicycles should all have motorcycle-duty drive chains and spokes. I think it was Jay Beattie who suggested the 800 lumen number. I merely stole it from him. I agree that 800 lumens probably too much. However, if such a high power dynamo product ever arrives on the market, there will surely be a lumens war among vendors to see who can advertise the largest number. At that time, 800 lumens will reserved for purists and regulatory agencies. Yep, safety inflation is real. -- - Frank Krygowski |
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