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#11
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rear der adjustment
Ben C wrote:
On 2008-03-16, Lou Holtman wrote: Ben C wrote: On 2008-03-16, Lou Holtman wrote: [...] I find that a very confusing description 'adjusting cable tension'. The tension is determined by de spring in the derailleur. You adjust the POSITION of the upper pulley with barrel adjuster. If the derailleur is on its lower limit screw and you turn the barrel you will be increasing tension in the cable. Yeah by 0.001% or something. The main purpose is POSITIONING the upper pulley, by in- or decreasing the length of the outer cable between two cable stops. Why the outer cable? The outer cable has to be filled by the same amount of inner cable. That is only possible if the RD moves thereby positioning the upper pulley. The way I assume it works is like this: the shifter is clicked into the position for third gear (for example). You set the (inner) cable length to just the right length to position the derailleur nicely on third gear. Correct. You should now hit the other gears correctly as the shifter changes the cable length by the right amount for the distance between gears. Exactly. The tiny weeny in- or decrease of the tension, which you can not feel in the cable, is a side effect. Why not call by the right name instead of that voodoo bicycle tech talk nobody 'not in the business' understands. Anyway if you did rack up the tension with the derailleur on the lower limit screw you wouldn't achieve anything useful. Correct. That's what goes wrong often. Alway check if the RD doesn't bottom out against the limit screw(s). Limit screws are just safety devices an with a proper set up indexed system redundant. It's like calling shifting to another gear in- or decreasing cable tension. Which it isn't. As you say it's the cable length you're setting here and the tension is always the same and determined by the derailleur spring. Correct Lou |
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#12
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rear der adjustment
Which it isn't. As you say it's the cable length you're setting here and
the tension is always the same and determined by the derailleur spring. Correct I disagree. As the derailleur moves, its spring lengthens or shortens, and the spring tension changes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooke's_law |
#13
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rear der adjustment
Barry wrote:
tension is determined by de spring in the derailleur. You adjust the POSITION of the upper pulley with barrel adjuster. If the derailleur is on its lower limit screw and you turn the barrel you will be increasing tension in the cable. Yeah by 0.001% or something. The main purpose is POSITIONING the upper pulley, by in- or decreasing the length of the outer cable between two cable stops. The tiny weeny in- or decrease of the tension, which you can not feel in the cable, is a side effect. Here's how I would describe the physics. You apply a torque to turn the barrel, which transmits a force to the cable and pulls it a little harder - this pull is the cable tension. When turning the barrel you lengthen of shorten the distance of the outet/inner cable between two cable stop. By doing so the RD has to move because the length of the inner cable is fixed between the shifter and the fixing point on the RD when the shifter is in a gear position. Because the RD moves the tension alters a tiny bit, but it is a side effect caused by the movement of the RD. The same happens when you shift from one gear to another only you shorten or lengthen the length of the inner cable between the shifter and the RD. The rear derailleur takes up the slack and moves because it is pre loaded by the RD spring. The other end of the cable transmits this pull to the derailleur. As the derailleur moves, its spring lengthens, and the spring force increases to balance the increased cable tension. Look at it this way. If the derailleur spring was replaced by something like a solid rod, the derailleur would hardly move, No it moves the same. You only have to apply more torque when turning the barrel or operate the shifter. and cable tension would have to be increased a lot for a tiny bit of movement. On the other hand, if the spring was very weak, a small increase in cable tension would cause a large movement. No it doesn't. Only the torque would be smaller to turn the barrel or the force to operate the shifter. The spring in the RD is a compromise between the force needed to operate the shifter of the sensitivity for sticky cables. The amount of movement is determent by the lever ratios in the shifter and RD If you find it clearer to refer to cable length instead of tension, that's fine. But I think it's wrong to call the tension increase a "side effect," as it's the increase in tension that causes everything else to happen. No it doesn't. See above. Lou |
#14
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rear der adjustment
Barry wrote:
Which it isn't. As you say it's the cable length you're setting here and the tension is always the same and determined by the derailleur spring. Correct I disagree. As the derailleur moves, its spring lengthens or shortens, and the spring tension changes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooke's_law What makes the RD move? Lou |
#15
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rear der adjustment
On 2008-03-16, Barry wrote:
Which it isn't. As you say it's the cable length you're setting here and the tension is always the same and determined by the derailleur spring. Correct I disagree. As the derailleur moves, its spring lengthens or shortens, and the spring tension changes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooke's_law Yes I think you're right. Although it may be more complicated if there are also leverage changes caused by the shape of the parallelogram. At the end of the day it's the position of the derailleur you care about, which corresponds to cable length. The spring is only there so you can change up. |
#16
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rear der adjustment
What makes the RD move?
Like anything else, the rear derailleur moves because a force acts on it. In this case, there are two opposing forces, coming from the cable (tension) and the spring. When the two forces are equal, the RD stays put. If the forces are unequal, the RD moves. |
#17
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rear der adjustment
Barry wrote:
What makes the RD move? Like anything else, the rear derailleur moves because a force acts on it. In this case, there are two opposing forces, coming from the cable (tension) and the spring. When the two forces are equal, the RD stays put. If the forces are unequal, the RD moves. OK, lets rephrase my question: What determines the position of the RD. That's is the only thing that is important for the adjustment and whether it shift or not. Lou |
#18
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rear der adjustment
Lou Holtman wrote:
Barry wrote: What makes the RD move? Like anything else, the rear derailleur moves because a force acts on it. In this case, there are two opposing forces, coming from the cable (tension) and the spring. When the two forces are equal, the RD stays put. If the forces are unequal, the RD moves. OK, lets rephrase my question: What determines the position of the RD. That's is the only thing that is important for the adjustment and whether it shift or not. Lou dude, this tread is already painfully retarded - now you're just prolonging it. cable length. end of story. now let's go home. |
#19
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rear der adjustment
Ben C wrote:
On 2008-03-16, Barry wrote: Which it isn't. As you say it's the cable length you're setting here and the tension is always the same and determined by the derailleur spring. Correct I disagree. As the derailleur moves, its spring lengthens or shortens, and the spring tension changes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooke's_law Yes I think you're right Of course that is right. .. Although it may be more complicated if there are also leverage changes caused by the shape of the parallelogram. At the end of the day it's the position of the derailleur you care about, which corresponds to cable length. The spring is only there so you can change up. That is what I meant. Adjusting the RD is posioning it in- or decreasing the cable tension. In a certain position of the RD corresponding to a shifter position/click I can change the RD spring by a stronger one or a weaker on. The RD stays in place. I changed the tension but not the position of the RD. Lou |
#20
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rear der adjustment
"Ben C" wrote...
If the limit screw isn't what's limiting it then the cable may be too tight. "Jim F" wrote: Bingo. That, plus I opened it up half a turn. Dave wrote: The only thing the high and low limit screws do is limit how far a derailleur can move in either direction. That adjustment can be made without a cable being attached. After that how well the indexing works is determined by cable tension. Lou Holtman wrote: I find that a very confusing description 'adjusting cable tension'. The tension is determined by de spring in the derailleur. You adjust the POSITION of the upper pulley with barrel adjuster. Ben C wrote: If the derailleur is on its lower limit screw and you turn the barrel you will be increasing tension in the cable. Lou Holtman wrote: Yeah by 0.001% or something. The main purpose is POSITIONING the upper pulley, by in- or decreasing the length of the outer cable between two cable stops. The tiny weeny in- or decrease of the tension, which you can not feel in the cable, is a side effect. Why not call by the right name instead of that voodoo bicycle tech talk nobody 'not in the business' understands. It's like calling shifting to another gear in- or decreasing cable tension. Well phrased, Lou. Thanks -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
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