Traction

LIMITS are HIGHLY

SUBJECTIVE.

I am a ground sloth. But I can do the Peterson in muh van ....

come up alongside in rainstorm on the outside of the Interstate next to a white knuckler going the speed limit...

and wiggle the truck back n forth then make it dance up and down..

jus saying uknow ......

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 1:24:29 AM UTC-5, Tosspot wrote:
On 17/02/16 01:34, Frank Krygowski wrote:
We got 12" of wet, dense snow today, but the plows came out, and the
roads aren't terrible, despite a bit of slush and some snowy patches. So
this evening, when I had to pick up a prescription at the local
pharmacy, I flicked on the dynohub headlight & taillight and rode to the
pharmacy and back. As I did so, I noticed a reflex retained from my
teenage years of winter newspaper delivery by bicycle.

When I'm making a turn on a surface that is, or might be, very slippery,
of course I slow down. But I also reflexively make an effort to keep
the bike vertical. To balance, I lean my body inward from the bike.

Obviously, the center of gravity of my body+bike must be a bit inward
(i.e. toward the center of the curve) for balance and stability. The
amount the c.g. is inward is a simple function of speed and radius of
turn. But in dry conditions, I achieve this by tilting the bike while
keeping my body in the normal position relative to the bike. In
slippery conditions, I do it instead by leaning my body away from the bike.

Do others do this? If so, why?

Yep. Makes me feel like a Motorcycle Grand Prix racer.

To achieve a certain lateral acceleration (or sharpness of turn), the
amount of lateral friction force (or traction) is fixed. And I don't
think there's any great difference in friction coefficient for my
Paselas when they're vertical vs. tilted, so the likelihood of a skid
shouldn't be much different. Psychologically, it _feels_ like some sort
of secondary effect - as if I have a better chance of stopping the
slide, or catching the bike, or just not falling, if the bike is vertical.

I *think* it gives a small margin. With the normal turn the CoG, point
of lateral resistance (CoLR) are in a plane, if the CoLR moves outwards,
out of plane, the CoG is now helping it move further out of plane. If
you hang off, you get a few inches while the *opposite* is happening.

Just my tuppence worth.


/////////////////////////////////////+

no. is a lot faster prob 10% right off.....


last I looked aloooooong time ago....20 years ? there was some disorientation in here prob reflective of this thread

this is how one rides a bike. Was either Brandt or Brown discoursed in learning cycling early in the brain formative connection development phase so countersteering would be go kart natural in opposite of that.


https://www.google.com/#q=bicycle%20...%3Ayoutube.com

I have instructed older folk who on trying CS fell onto the parking lot

https://www.google.com/#q=bicycle%20...%3Ayoutube.com

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 11:59:20 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 1:24:29 AM UTC-5, Tosspot wrote:
On 17/02/16 01:34, Frank Krygowski wrote:
We got 12" of wet, dense snow today, but the plows came out, and the
roads aren't terrible, despite a bit of slush and some snowy patches. So
this evening, when I had to pick up a prescription at the local
pharmacy, I flicked on the dynohub headlight & taillight and rode to the
pharmacy and back. As I did so, I noticed a reflex retained from my
teenage years of winter newspaper delivery by bicycle.

When I'm making a turn on a surface that is, or might be, very slippery,
of course I slow down. But I also reflexively make an effort to keep
the bike vertical. To balance, I lean my body inward from the bike.

Obviously, the center of gravity of my body+bike must be a bit inward
(i.e. toward the center of the curve) for balance and stability. The
amount the c.g. is inward is a simple function of speed and radius of
turn. But in dry conditions, I achieve this by tilting the bike while
keeping my body in the normal position relative to the bike. In
slippery conditions, I do it instead by leaning my body away from the bike.

Do others do this? If so, why?

Yep. Makes me feel like a Motorcycle Grand Prix racer.

To achieve a certain lateral acceleration (or sharpness of turn), the
amount of lateral friction force (or traction) is fixed. And I don't
think there's any great difference in friction coefficient for my
Paselas when they're vertical vs. tilted, so the likelihood of a skid
shouldn't be much different. Psychologically, it _feels_ like some sort
of secondary effect - as if I have a better chance of stopping the
slide, or catching the bike, or just not falling, if the bike is vertical.

I *think* it gives a small margin. With the normal turn the CoG, point
of lateral resistance (CoLR) are in a plane, if the CoLR moves outwards,
out of plane, the CoG is now helping it move further out of plane. If
you hang off, you get a few inches while the *opposite* is happening.

Just my tuppence worth.


/////////////////////////////////////+

no. is a lot faster prob 10% right off.....


last I looked aloooooong time ago....20 years ? there was some disorientation in here prob reflective of this thread

this is how one rides a bike. Was either Brandt or Brown discoursed in learning cycling early in the brain formative connection development phase so countersteering would be go kart natural in opposite of that.


https://www.google.com/#q=bicycle%20...%3Ayoutube.com

I have instructed older folk who on trying CS fell onto the parking lot

https://www.google.com/#q=bicycle%20...%3Ayoutube.com

)))))))))))))))))))))))\XX

off course what wud a handling thread be without

https://www.google.com/#q=isle+of+man+sidecar+accidents

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 12:02:19 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 11:59:20 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 1:24:29 AM UTC-5, Tosspot wrote:
On 17/02/16 01:34, Frank Krygowski wrote:
We got 12" of wet, dense snow today, but the plows came out, and the
roads aren't terrible, despite a bit of slush and some snowy patches. So
this evening, when I had to pick up a prescription at the local
pharmacy, I flicked on the dynohub headlight & taillight and rode to the
pharmacy and back. As I did so, I noticed a reflex retained from my
teenage years of winter newspaper delivery by bicycle.

When I'm making a turn on a surface that is, or might be, very slippery,
of course I slow down. But I also reflexively make an effort to keep
the bike vertical. To balance, I lean my body inward from the bike.

Obviously, the center of gravity of my body+bike must be a bit inward
(i.e. toward the center of the curve) for balance and stability. The
amount the c.g. is inward is a simple function of speed and radius of
turn. But in dry conditions, I achieve this by tilting the bike while
keeping my body in the normal position relative to the bike. In
slippery conditions, I do it instead by leaning my body away from the bike.

Do others do this? If so, why?

Yep. Makes me feel like a Motorcycle Grand Prix racer.

To achieve a certain lateral acceleration (or sharpness of turn), the
amount of lateral friction force (or traction) is fixed. And I don't
think there's any great difference in friction coefficient for my
Paselas when they're vertical vs. tilted, so the likelihood of a skid
shouldn't be much different. Psychologically, it _feels_ like some sort
of secondary effect - as if I have a better chance of stopping the
slide, or catching the bike, or just not falling, if the bike is vertical.

I *think* it gives a small margin. With the normal turn the CoG, point
of lateral resistance (CoLR) are in a plane, if the CoLR moves outwards,
out of plane, the CoG is now helping it move further out of plane. If
you hang off, you get a few inches while the *opposite* is happening.

Just my tuppence worth.


/////////////////////////////////////+

no. is a lot faster prob 10% right off.....


last I looked aloooooong time ago....20 years ? there was some disorientation in here prob reflective of this thread

this is how one rides a bike. Was either Brandt or Brown discoursed in learning cycling early in the brain formative connection development phase so countersteering would be go kart natural in opposite of that.


https://www.google.com/#q=bicycle%20...%3Ayoutube.com

I have instructed older folk who on trying CS fell onto the parking lot

https://www.google.com/#q=bicycle%20...%3Ayoutube.com





)))))))))))))\XX


off course what wud a handling thread be without


https://www.google.com/#q=isle+of+ma...idents&tbm=vid



~

waste time on this one ....3 minutes in....


your ad is not my ad hehehhehheheh .....



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqUa0dduw9o

On 2/17/2016 12:13 PM, wrote:

waste time on this one ....3 minutes in....


your ad is not my ad hehehhehheheh .....



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqUa0dduw9o

You're having quite a conversation with yourself!


--
- Frank Krygowski

FranKly. I'll look for The Confrontation after dinner. Went thru that one via th Brit tabloids n club news. Max Duel. Poss newbies would enjoy that one.

Sic Gloria Transit

with bicycles tho limits are easier reached. certainly less costly easier exceeded n recovered from.

My knowledge in the area is very limited as no group rides no peloton np race attendance. I see only sporadic hobby riders who do not AFAIK countersteer.

cannah find the braking area stand off at that same coroner

but here

https://www.youtube.coms/watch?v=zyi_Eu6mxyo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v7pxwdqGQM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x0CBWlg2b4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHidS8AjMS0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d3r2LNNiUA

On 2016-02-16 16:34, Frank Krygowski wrote:
We got 12" of wet, dense snow today, but the plows came out, and the
roads aren't terrible, despite a bit of slush and some snowy patches. So
this evening, when I had to pick up a prescription at the local
pharmacy, I flicked on the dynohub headlight & taillight and rode to the
pharmacy and back. As I did so, I noticed a reflex retained from my
teenage years of winter newspaper delivery by bicycle.

When I'm making a turn on a surface that is, or might be, very slippery,
of course I slow down. But I also reflexively make an effort to keep
the bike vertical. To balance, I lean my body inward from the bike.

Obviously, the center of gravity of my body+bike must be a bit inward
(i.e. toward the center of the curve) for balance and stability. The
amount the c.g. is inward is a simple function of speed and radius of
turn. But in dry conditions, I achieve this by tilting the bike while
keeping my body in the normal position relative to the bike. In
slippery conditions, I do it instead by leaning my body away from the bike.

Do others do this? If so, why?

To achieve a certain lateral acceleration (or sharpness of turn), the
amount of lateral friction force (or traction) is fixed. And I don't
think there's any great difference in friction coefficient for my
Paselas when they're vertical vs. tilted, so the likelihood of a skid
shouldn't be much different. Psychologically, it _feels_ like some sort
of secondary effect - as if I have a better chance of stopping the
slide, or catching the bike, or just not falling, if the bike is vertical.


Usually the bike is leaned and the body counteracts the lean a bit, like
he

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkK05NXLFhk

At least that's how I learned it early on. Mostly because as a kid I
preferred riding my bicycle on motocross circuits, often in the rain
when nobody was out there. Fun! (well, my mom didn't think so when she
saw my clothes)


Maybe this is a valuable reflex I picked up by trial and error in my
paperboy days. Or maybe it's some unconscious superstition. At my age,
I'm a bit afraid to do an A-B test to see.

So: Comments?


Strange. I do it opposite and see others do it similarly: Lean the bike
and then move the upper body opposite, towards the outside of the curve.
This keeps the CG more towards the line where the wheels roll. When
riding at the limit I sometimes stop pedaling and set a foot out. Many
MTB riders do this kind of instinctively. There are days in winter when
the bike slides sideways even on a dirt trail that looks straight
because it's all rutted and muddy. Becomes a normal riding mode quickly.

End of December when riding fat bikes on an icy road keeping the CG
almost above where the wheels touch was even more important. Move it
just an inch too far ... swish ... ka-crash.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Joerg

try reading on this...Bicycle Science...and online.

The bicycle configuration turns right when the butt and legs/torso turn left on the saddle. The front wheel need not turn...this is the important part....the wheel need not run.

The frame turns as it fall right.

so there's no scrub or less scrub on the road from a turning motion on a straight ahead route. Less energy loss.

The motions are continuous. So at the top, the balancing rider losses less energy per 100 miles than the lesser balanced rider.

big difference. a constant energy advantage as the frame traveles in a straight line not scrubbing off energy forcing the frame into a turn.