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  #11  
Old August 21st 05, 01:13 PM
till!
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Gemma_k Wrote:

You miss the point....It's all about the choice of whther you WANT t
wear a helmet
rather than mandating that you do....

Not at all true, I mean there is no mandate that requires you ride
bike

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till!

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  #12  
Old August 21st 05, 02:03 PM
Resound
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"Gemma_k" wrote in message
u...

"Bleve" wrote in message
ups.com...

Euan wrote:
"Bob" == Bob writes:


Bob The only link is that mandatory wearing of helmets, at one
Bob point in time, discouraged cyclists, reducing cyclist
Bob numbers. I think everyone is over that by now - does it really
Bob discourage anyone anymore?

Absolutely. It's a hot and smelly inconvenience which is off-putting to
the fashion conscious.


Stackhats went out in, oh, 1980? Modern helmets are light, well
ventilated and comfortable.

You miss the point. It doesn't matter how good a helmet is to wear, or
how safe you feel in one, or how many vents there are or what kind of
hairstyle you have. It's all about the choice of whther you WANT to wear
a helmet, rather than mandating that you do....
Gemma


I'm still undecided about whether the law should mandate helmet use for
adults. However, children don't have the sort of decision making abilities
that adults do, that's why they're considered children. In the same way that
it's illegal for children to smoke tobacco, drink alcohol etc it should be
illegal for them to partake of risk taking behaviour like riding without a
helmet. Once they're an adult they should perhaps be allowed to make up
their own minds. Then there's the issue of the public health system
subsidising people's voluntary risk taking behaviour. But that's another
rant.


  #13  
Old August 21st 05, 09:29 PM
Euan
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"Bleve" == Bleve writes:

Absolutely. It's a hot and smelly inconvenience which is
off-putting to the fashion conscious.


Bleve Stackhats went out in, oh, 1980? Modern helmets are light,
Bleve well ventilated and comfortable.

On a hot summer's day they most certainly aren't as comfortable as a
decent sun hat.

It's a bit of baggage that you need to lug around and there is no
proof that helmets provide any benefit whereas there is
substantial proof that helmets are detrimental.


Bleve "any" benefit? If I wasn't wearing mine a few months ago
Bleve when I crashed into an oncoming bike on a bikepath, I'd
Bleve probably be a vegetable (more than I am now!). I'd certanily
Bleve have done significan injury. As it is, I had to buy a new
Bleve helmet and was a bit dizzy for a couple of days.

At age five I rode head face in to a concrete lamp post (I sneezed,
opened my eyes, saw lamp post and grabbed the front brake with
predictable results.) I required two stitches but other than that,
fine.

At at age 12 I went sailing over the bonnet of my geography teacher's
car. Many bruises and abrasions but guess what? My skin and bone
healed up.

At fourteen my tennis racket holder (a clamp which fitted on the front
forks which could hold a tennis racket) worked loose and jammed in the
spokes with rather spectacular results. Again, battered and bruised but
I recovered.

I wasn't wearing a helmet. I hit my head. I'm here and not a
vegetable.

Bleve 20 years ago (or however long ago it was) it may have stopped
Bleve some adults riding - but all the kids at my school still
Bleve rode. We hated stackhats and those awful Bell puddingbowls,
Bleve but we still rode our bikes everywhere. As to how many
Bleve people that grew up post-compulsory rules that haven't ridden
Bleve because they'd have to wear a helmet? How's that going to be
Bleve measured?

It's pretty hard to measure, agreed. However the requirement to wear a
helmet is a barrier on two fronts.

One, cycling must be dangerous. It must be dangerous otherwise why
would you have to wear a helmet? You don't have to wear a helmet if
something's not dangerous.

Two, it's just inconvenient. Bicycles are much more convenient when you
don't have to lug around a helmet once you've parked the bike. These
things matter to people.

Bob But wearing helmets can impact outcomes. These however would
Bob not be identifiable in statistics because the number of deaths,
Bob while being too high already, is to low in Australia to draw
Bob real conclusions.
There is no proof that helmets are beneficial.


Bleve Heh, I refute this thus; I can still read.

I refute your refute, I can still read to after several cycling
accidents which resulted in a bump on the head. I fully suspect that if
you had not been wearing a helmet in your accident you'd still be able
to read as well.

This is the thing about helmets, you have an accident and see the damage
done to the helmet. ``Oh thank goodness I was wearing a helmet, that
impact would have left me with brain damage.'' That's a very unlikely
scenario. People have been falling on their bonce since the beginning
of time and it is the minority of those cases which result in brain
injury.

If you're convinced of the properties of cycling helmets then I hope you
wear one when walking and driving a car (I know you wear a motorcycle
helmet ;-) ).

Bleve It is a fact that in
every country that has helmet compulsion cycling has decreased
significantly which has a far greater impact on cyclist safety.


Bleve It may have temporarily reduced numbers, but is there any
Bleve evidence to suggest that the change lasted a generation?

If the numbers hadn't reduced it's quite possible we'd have a lot more
cyclists today.

That's a very big may. I prefer not to entrust my safety to what
is essentially a piece of polystyrene designed to absorb the
kinetic energy of a fall from head height. That's all it does.


Bleve "all" it does? "I refuse to breath because all it does is
Bleve oxygenate blood". Mine without doubt saved me from significant head
Bleve injury. I'm mighty glad that polystyrene saved my bonce from
Bleve a fall from head-height. I landed head-first (back of head).
Bleve Helmets work.

Helmets may work in very limited scenarios, they do not make a
significant contribution to cyclist safety that warrants compulsion.

Compulsion is a barrier to cycling, a barrier to cycling reduces cycling
numbers and increases the risk per cyclists. It's not a good trade off.

Wear a helmet or don't, I just don't agree with compulsion.
--
Cheers | ~~ __@
Euan | ~~ _-\,
Melbourne, Australia | ~ (*)/ (*)
  #14  
Old August 21st 05, 10:28 PM
flyingdutch
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After having 2 serious spills recently, one racing and one commuting, I
darned glad i was wearing a helmet.

I'd love to be able to get away with not wearing one but the penalt
for something happening is just too high

http://thehippy.net/gallery/displayi...album=98&pos=1

--
flyingdutch

  #15  
Old August 21st 05, 11:06 PM
Flying Echidna
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On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 09:06:37 GMT, Euan wrote
in aus.bicycle:

... Dr Dorothy Robinson's concern, instead, is bicycle safety. She has
just published a study in the Health Promotion Journal of Australia that
is likely to send shock waves through Australian cycling communities
with its claim that mandatory bicycle helmet laws increase rather than
decrease the likelihood of injuries to cyclists.

http://melbourne.citysearch.com.au/profile?id=53571

Personally I'd still use a helmet in winter 'cause it's a handy place to
put lights :-) Summer I'd leave the lid behind and wear a sun hat.



Dr Robinson still cycling in her satin flaired trousers , platform
shoes and floral paisley top must be a sight to behold. I wouldn't
admit to still owning the clothes I wore in 1971 let alone claim to
wear them


Regards
Prickles
  #16  
Old August 22nd 05, 12:00 AM
sinus
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Resound Wrote:

I'm still undecided about whether the law should mandate helmet use fo
adults. However, children don't have the sort of decision makin
abilitie
that adults do, that's why they're considered children. In the same wa
tha
it's illegal for children to smoke tobacco, drink alcohol etc it shoul
b
illegal for them to partake of risk taking behaviour like ridin
without
helmet. Once they're an adult they should perhaps be allowed to make u
their own minds. Then there's the issue of the public health syste
subsidising people's voluntary risk taking behaviour. But that'
anothe
rant.

How hard would it be to encourage children to wear a helmet if adult
don't. Not to mention any enforcement when they are teenagers. Yo
cannot effectively get kids to adopt a behaviour when it is highl
obvious that their role-models, adults, are doing something different

I always shake my head when I see people on bike paths with helmets o
the handlebars, particularly when it is Dad with the kids. I want on
of those magic helmets with accident detector and auto-instal
capability. You wonder what logic Dad used to get kids to put thei
helmet on

I have had my share of accidents on a bike in the past. Last count wa
two on the road involving cars, one on the road caused by fault
equipment (tyre, bang), one on trails (note: check front wheel quic
release before going over ANY size bump) and two on the Yarra bik
path. The only two times I hit my head was on the bike path a
reasonably slow speeds. And both would have been bad headaches withou
a helmet. That's good enough for me

--
sinus

  #17  
Old August 22nd 05, 12:04 AM
ritcho
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Euan Wrote:
.... Dr Dorothy Robinson's concern, instead, is bicycle safety. She has
just published a study in the Health Promotion Journal of Australi
that
is likely to send shock waves through Australian cycling communities
with its claim that mandatory bicycle helmet laws increase rather than
decrease the likelihood of injuries to cyclists.

http://melbourne.citysearch.com.au/profile?id=53571

Personally I'd still use a helmet in winter 'cause it's a handy plac
to
put lights :-) Summer I'd leave the lid behind and wear a sun hat.
--
Cheers | ~~ __@
Euan | ~~ _-\,
Melbourne, Australia | ~ (*)/ (*)


Dr Robinson is a well known anti-helmet law campaigner and does som
pretty good research. However, I'm concerned that her pre-determine
conclusions undermines her work.

Euan had better make sure he falls off and hits his head in winte
only...

Ritc

--
ritcho

  #18  
Old August 22nd 05, 12:06 AM
Ray Peace
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Flying Echidna wrote:
On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 09:06:37 GMT, Euan wrote
in aus.bicycle:


... Dr Dorothy Robinson's concern, instead, is bicycle safety. She has
just published a study in the Health Promotion Journal of Australia that
is likely to send shock waves through Australian cycling communities
with its claim that mandatory bicycle helmet laws increase rather than
decrease the likelihood of injuries to cyclists.

http://melbourne.citysearch.com.au/profile?id=53571

Personally I'd still use a helmet in winter 'cause it's a handy place to
put lights :-) Summer I'd leave the lid behind and wear a sun hat.




Dr Robinson still cycling in her satin flaired trousers , platform
shoes and floral paisley top must be a sight to behold. I wouldn't
admit to still owning the clothes I wore in 1971 let alone claim to
wear them


Regards
Prickles

Greetings,
I was wearing a helmet long before they became mandatory, and have
wrecked several in crashes, I prefer to wreck the helmet rather than my
skull. But the helmet is merely a last line of defence, not something
that prevents accidents, and if 1.5 tonnes of metal collects you at 100
k/mh, you are dead whichever way you cut it.
The number of cars of world roads has doubled in the past 20 years, from
500 million to one billion, and is still increasing. Given that the
roads are at best marginally better, accidents are almost inevitable.
Cyclists tend to get the attention as they are more directly vulnerable
to impact.
I drive a car as well as ride a bike, but I do not drive like some of
the arrogant, aggro morons I regularly see on the roads in this area.
Attitudes are as much a part of the problem as anything else, and
changing them is an uphill battle. Helmets are certainly improved in the
past 20 years, unfortunately, the situation on the roads has gone in the
opposite direction.
Regards,
Ray.
  #19  
Old August 22nd 05, 12:28 AM
Peter McCallum
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HellenWheels wrote:
What? Banning kids from wearing cycling caps at school? What's the purpose
of that. You can't ban an idea. If you start doing picky things like that
on the off chance it might lead to wearing a cap in school, that would only
increase the tension among the youngsters and promote even more civil
disobedience, imo. What about wearing a lycra skull cap? Are they gonna ban
those too? You can stuff 'em in your pocket. Hell they probably think that
a skull cap is even worse than a little cycling cap, which is more 'dork'
than 'outlaw', for most people's taste...

-Wheels


At my daughter's school there's a policy that students must wear the
correct coloured shoelaces, and it's strictly enforced. Obviously
shoelace colour has some bearing on educational outcomes.

P
--
Peter McCallum
Mackay Qld AUSTRALIA
  #20  
Old August 22nd 05, 01:16 AM
flyingdutch
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Peter McCallum Wrote:

At my daughter's school there's a policy that students must wear the
correct coloured shoelaces, and it's strictly enforced. Obviously
shoelace colour has some bearing on educational outcomes.

P
--
Peter McCallum
Mackay Qld AUSTRALIA


bwahahahah. opened up The Age today to discover my eldests' propose
highschool is introducing tie and Blazer.
Daughter's response...
"Can i burn it?

--
flyingdutch

 




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