Shrewd maketing by Shimano -- too bad for cyclists.

On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:47:31 -0400, Curtis L. Russell
wrote:

On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:14:31 -0400, Bob Wheeler
wrote:

It would be nice if they were maintenance free, but I suspect not.

Shimano has originated a shrewd way to move product. More power to them.

Not based on what you've said. They made it difficult to upgrade and
presumably most of the stuff on a Paramount from the 70s still works.
So they've discouraged a sale until you buy a new bike - which is
irrelevant to the issue of compatibility.

At one time I owned bikes that ran from a 1975 Italvega with all Campi
to a Lotus Supreme to my wife's Terry and Viner to my son's Team
Schwinn to a couple ofSantana tandems. Oh, yeah, and a freewheel
BMX-style bike. The only issue of compatibility that came up in doing
the maintenance and support on these bikes were pedals. And that's
because its expensive to buy a separate pair of shoes for each bike.

In all the ten or so years that I supported the bikes for three grown
bike riders, not once did compatibility cause me any issues in
maintaining and repairing the bikes. The total special tools to
maintain this variety came down to tools to easily remove freewheels
and cogs, the Campi seatbolt tool and IIRC, a rather large pedal tool
for the special platform pedal on the Lotus Supreme (could be
remembering that wrong, though).

I've been hearing this 'scam' argument for at least 25 years. The
argument works better for new bike retailers than for Shimano. Shimano
probably has a bigger mark-up on retail gruppos than on the ones they
sell to the bike manufacturers.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

How many seven-speed wheelsets can you find? I had a very hard time
finding these. It's possible, just hard.

--
Bob in CT
Remove ".x" to reply

Would that were true. The frame was chrome, but it rusted, so I
repainted it. The Campy deraillers looked great but didn't work very
well, so they were replaced with SunTour. Other than that things are
much as they were, but it is a much used bike -- hardly vintage.

Terry Morse wrote:
Bob Wheeler wrote:


I have a Paramount that
weighs 21 lb.. I doubt that changing a few components will shave much
off that.


You have a vintage Paramount that's been hanging in a garage for 25
years? Don't touch a thing on it! You have a highly prized classic.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/


--
Bob Wheeler --- http://www.bobwheeler.com/
ECHIP, Inc. ---
Randomness comes in bunches.

Bob in CT wrote in
news
How many seven-speed wheelsets can you find? I had a very hard time
finding these. It's possible, just hard.

I'm about to run into that. I'm thinking of upgrading or replacing some
worn-out components on a '92 Trek hybrid, maybe have some new wheels built.
It's been converted to drop bars as more of a touring bike than a hybrid,
and it's 7-speed. My LBS guy said he can get the 7-speed parts, but I
wonder for how long. And this is for a bike that's only 12 years old. I
should probably get off the stick and have this done now, and not wait a
year or two, or the parts may not be available.

Another option would be a full rebuild with the current generation of
components, if it can be made to fit the bike (I'm pretty sure it can). But
that's going to cost a small fortune at individual part prices. I can see
why people just buy a new bike instead of upgrading an older frame. I can
probably get a new Cannondale or Trek touring bike for the cost of the
component upgrade (including LBS rebuild fees) on the older bike.

--
Mike Barrs

"Bob Wheeler" wrote in message
...
Shimano seems to have conned the world. Of course the new shifting
mechanisms are nice and more precise than those that I have on my bikes,
but the improvement is not earth shattering. What shocked me, however,
was the fact that, to add these to one of my bikes, in addition to the
crankset and freewheel, I would have to replace the bottom bracket,
rebuild the rear wheel, and probably replace the deraillers. Moreover,
nothing was compatible.
Well damn. I don't think that very many of the parts on
my 1994 Corvette would be compatible with the 1969
Impala that I used to drive. Maybe I should complain to
Chevrolet.

It is ridiculous to complain that parts made in 2004 won't
easily fit a 34 year old bicycle. People will complain about
anything.

On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:54:13 -0400, Bob Wheeler wrote:

but apparently there is no
backward compatibility within a manufacturer's product line. An upgrade
seems as costly and time consuming as a new build. What a marketer's
dream. Make a cosmetic change, and sell a new group. I see that this is
what Shimano is doing in December -- does anyone care?

It's a 30 year old bike--what do you expect?

I've got a 25 year old bike, and it's old derailleurs handle a modern
wheelset and 8 speed cassette with no complaint and the venerable SR
cranks accept clipless pedals. The 600 long pulls
are perfectly happy with the set of Bontrager shoes I bought on sale...

I doubt you'd have this easy of a time with a 1970 Buick.

Shut up and ride, you sound like you've got rambling old man syndrome.



....well in my day we'd milk a cow with tweezers barefoot on our heads and
we liked it dammit!

On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:59:22 +0000, Bob in CT wrote:

How many seven-speed wheelsets can you find? I had a very hard time
finding these. It's possible, just hard.

Just use an 8-speed. It'll work just fine with friction components. You'll
have to spread the frame a bit to make it fit, so I'd recommend this for
steel frames only. If you're clicky, then around $50 will get you a Sora
derailleur and downtube shifter that'll interface flawlessly with the new
wheel.

On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:29:35 +0000, Steve Knight wrote:

you have to go outside of shimano and campy to get them. but my hubs are
sealed cartridge bearings and my headset too.

My BB is too--pressed cartridge Campy from the late seventies.

Bob Wheeler wrote:

I note that one of the things we, in 1970, thought would soon be
replaced is still with us -- loose balls in a cup and cone.

That is the single most telling sign of Shimano's hegemony in the bike
parts business, if you ask me-- cup & cone hubs. It's as if cars had
managed to develop all their various sophistications since the days of
the Model T, but most of them still started with a hand crank in the
front. How many other 21st century machines still have user-adjusted,
non-replaceable cup & cone bearings for critical mechanisms? I can't
think of even one.

As for the lack of backwards compatibility in succesively more
complicated shifting systems, that's easier to accept. I order to get
improving shifting performance from increasing numbers of gears, more
parameters of the system (dimensions, spacings, etc.) have had to be
controlled by the component manufacturer. Previous systems that did
not control as many variables are unlikely to function as desired when
required to perform a more demeanding task.

There are lots of tricks and workarounds in reconciling old and new
equipment, and a seasoned expert mechanic will be familiar with many
of them. A younger or less experienced mechanic, who may never have
been familiar with the old stuff to begin with, probably will not be
able to offer the whole range of usable partial updates.

Chalo Colina

On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:59:22 GMT, Bob in CT
wrote:


How many seven-speed wheelsets can you find? I had a very hard time
finding these. It's possible, just hard.

--
Bob in CT
Remove ".x" to reply

I have enough parts to build a couple, but replacements for the
5-speed are more difficult if you don't want to spread the rear stays.
OTOH, I had at least three freewheels in good shape and the Campagnolo
(Italvega) and Shimano (Lotus) hubs showed no reason to replace the
hubs. I had three sets of wheels each and could rebuild them when
needed.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

In article ,
Bob Wheeler wrote:

I hung up my bike in 1970 after having been a cyclist for over 30 years.
Recently, I pulled some off their hangers, dusted them off and climbed
aboard. It's as much fun as it ever was.

I needed a few things, like gloves and a frame pump. The tires and tubes
were still in good shape, as were moving parts such as bottom brackets
and hubs -- I used VersiLube G322L in those days and it seems to have
lasted. So I went to the local bike shop, and was amazed at the changes,
but then I looked more closely, and did a bit of reading. Wow!

Shimano seems to have conned the world. Of course the new shifting
mechanisms are nice and more precise than those that I have on my bikes,
but the improvement is not earth shattering. What shocked me, however,
was the fact that, to add these to one of my bikes, in addition to the
crankset and freewheel, I would have to replace the bottom bracket,
rebuild the rear wheel, and probably replace the deraillers. Moreover,
nothing was compatible. I can't really fault manufacturer's for doing
things differently from their competitors, but apparently there is no
backward compatibility within a manufacturer's product line. An upgrade
seems as costly and time consuming as a new build. What a marketer's
dream. Make a cosmetic change, and sell a new group. I see that this is
what Shimano is doing in December -- does anyone care?

No. If you want indexing, it's basically not possible to make an old
shifter (barring a bit of adaptation and luck) work. The key issues are
that the newer shifters have more precise mechanisms and different
leverage ratios that make indexing simpler.

But of course, the only reason to upgrade is to gain the advantages of
indexing, or maybe to lose a few grams. You're not being forced to
upgrade, and I happily ride an old Bianchi with mid-grade friction
Suntour stuff. I upgraded the front brake, because I am a true believer
in dual-pivots and a hater of the nastier sort of old Dia-Compe
single-pivot brake. This would have required no other changes to the
bike had I bought the exact right parts (I didn't; I used a bodge of
available parts to do the same thing slightly more cheaply).

If you want new shifters, you can still buy them, and they can be
switched between index and friction settings, meaning they will work
with your gear.

Further, a switch to indexed (as opposed to brifteur) shifting takes
three component changes: rear derailleur, rear shifter lever, and rear
hub. That last one is a bit of a pain, but given that a built _wheel_
can be had for a C-note or less, my sympathy is lacking. If you're
willing to look into new old stock or readily available used parts, you
could easily go to 6- or 7- speed indexing with no changes other than
the shifter, derailleur, and a fresh cassette. Hm. You might have to
fiddle with the rear axle spacing or something. Don't quote me.

So what are you complaining about, exactly?

I note that one of the things we, in 1970, thought would soon be
replaced is still with us -- loose balls in a cup and cone.

In all places where you might find these, there are cartridge bearing
replacements available.

Now, what has brand S (and by extension, Campy) done for us?

-integrated brake-and-shifter setups are a clear win for racers, and a
pleasant convenience for most cyclists who try them.

-parts are now lighter and nominally stronger than before

-brakes (in my opinion) are better than they were 20 years ago

-more gears

-better shifting through pins and ramps. Indeed, even without changing
to indexing, I have improved the shifting of several bikes by adding
Hyperglide (or clones thereof) freewheels.

--
Ryan Cousineau, http://www.wiredcola.com
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club