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  #181  
Old February 22nd 19, 12:26 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Default Latest on Australian Mandatory Helmet Law propaganda

On Thursday, February 21, 2019 at 6:17:36 PM UTC, wrote:
On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 at 2:59:10 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 at 7:52:38 PM UTC, Frank Krygowski wrote:

If you disagree, put some data up and let's discuss it.


Hmm. See, Franki-boy, not only have I put up data, which you refused to discuss because even you know you have no answers to such conclusive data, my data proved:
1. That cycling is safer than you claimed before you started using my figures, which coincidentally also proved you don't know how to handle statistics, and through your clumsiness were making cycling seem more dangerous than it is.
2.That a substantial number of cyclists' lives, up to perhaps 400, can be saved in America every year if helmets were mandatory, which could come to more than half of the cyclists killed on American roads every year, a conclusion you inhumanely dismissed as irrelevant because so few cyclists die every year that it isn't worth saving half of them... For future reference, Franki-boy, the correct answer is that even one life saved is worth the effort: it could be your life.
3. That it is therefore counterproductive dimwits like you who put people off cycling, by contributing to the belief that cycling is dangerous, and that the self-appointed "spokesmen for cycling" do not care about the lives of cyclists.

You want to be the friend of cycling, Franki-boy, you should shut the **** up, for good.

You won't, of course. You're too full of yourself, which is the same as saying you're too full of ****.

Andre Jute
Professional publicist


I do not in the least believe that a single life could be saved by helmets other than very far outliers on the curve.


The New York study gives the lie to this overly obvious conclusion.

That pedestrian and bicyclists deaths track each other so closely shows that to be a truism.


And this is the cause of the error. You need to look at the constituent components of the incidents.

Like you appear to be saying, I do not believe cycling to be dangerous in general but that is only in comparison to driving which is not safe at all..


That's a fair enough summary of what I'm saying. But this is another overly obvious conclusion from the numbers I worked up, which everyone accepts (or at least don't argue against). See, even with the speed differential, an automobile still has four wheels for inherent stability whereas a bicycle has only two and is inherently unstable, and, most of all, the bicycle offers the rider very little protection, whereas a car is a steel cage designed with crumple zones to absorb impact before it reaches the driver or his passengers plus airbags and padding everywhere. So, in reality, cycling should be far more dangerous than motoring, but the figures, even closely analysed, doin't show this.

I have been told that driving in Germany was so dangerous that Americans often would not do so.


No. German drivers are good. The most dangerous drivers in Europe are the British.
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  #182  
Old February 22nd 19, 01:11 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
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Default Latest on Australian Mandatory Helmet Law propaganda

On 22/2/19 5:10 am, jbeattie wrote:


If you
had raced for 20 years, I could also guaranty that you would have
crashed. Anybody who rides daily will at some time crash.


Yep. I've raced and crashed, and crashed a few times just out riding.
On a few occasions I've crashed into cars and ruined bicycle frames.

A helmet has never saved me though, and where I live they have been
mandatory since 1990/91. I don't have any broken helmets or scars on my
head from crashing either.

--
JS
  #183  
Old February 22nd 19, 02:21 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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On Thursday, February 21, 2019 at 1:10:40 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, February 21, 2019 at 9:03:50 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/20/2019 11:48 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 at 6:47:19 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:

And perhaps you shouldn't credit my lack of crashing to magic? I think
there's something to be said for riding within the limits of one's
abilities.

That and not riding in ice or at night on rain soaked roads with hidden pot holes or on broken wet cement...


Except that I've done all those things!

on tires with clay-based pigments or Umma Gummas that were pulled from the market.


OK, I haven't done that one.

It also helps not to have you son crash in front of you on a slippery descent.


I've ridden with people who have crashed. I pay attention to the
behavior of riders, and I don't draft any but the best.

But if I were in a slippery descent, I think I'd take it a lot slower
than you. I don't see any sense in pushing for speed in risky situations.

I doubt you often encounter hills where you keep going even when your wheels are stopped. https://tinyurl.com/y53jrl9d I about slid through the stop sign. That was on 32mm semi-slicks. Do you ever ride on moss? I ride in rain the equivalent of four solid months a year, in traffic with lots of other cyclists, walkers, dogs -- often in the dark. There are a lot of reasons for crashing that do not suggest incompetence.


Our philosophies differ. I think that most times a cyclist crashes, it's
for reasons that could have and should have been foreseen. So potholes?
In my commuting days, I was rarely surprised by them. I knew the
stretches of road where they first appeared - often where the pavement
was partly shaded by trees, for example. Corners? I watch for gravel.
Dogs? High alert every time, leashed or not.

There were many years I tried to be fast, usually time trialing home
from work. I might do some slightly tricky moves as part of that,
notably jumping a set of angled railroad tracks. But it was within my
level of skill (since I always did it successfully). And where things
were more uncertain, like corners that sometimes had gravel, I was more
conservative.

I may have told this story before, but on one ride with my daughter, we
approached a set of railroad tracks just after a rain. I said "Be
careful, the tracks are going to be slippery." The kid said "Oh, Dad!!"
in the way kids are programmed to do. Then she dumped onto the ground.

We were almost side by side, going the same speed. But I think I was
more careful than she was, to ride perfectly straight and not jerk the
bike. Sometimes that's all it takes.

I think it was last week that I rode to the library on icy streets. To
tell the truth, I didn't realize they were as icy as they were; if I
had, I might not have taken the bike. But I did keep going - very, very
slowly and carefully. There were times I was riding at 3 mph on icy
turns, keeping the bike as upright as possible and ready to put my foot
down instantly.

You probably would have beat me to the library. But I was happy to keep
my crash risk to a minimum.


I doubt you could teach me anything about technique, particularly when it comes to train tracks. Downtown is solid Max and streetcar tracks. A small segment of my commute through south waterfront: https://bikeportland.org/wp-content/...moody-high.jpg The best part of downtown are the MAX tracks combined with the cobbles or the slippery death-brick pavers. We get 140-150 days of rain. Have you ever ridden for 140-150 days on wet pavement in a year? I've done that for the last 35 years. It's a jungle out there. http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3046/...223dd5bed8.jpg If you had raced for 20 years, I could also guaranty that you would have crashed. Anybody who rides daily will at some time crash. https://bikeportland.org/2010/11/11/...released-42622 https://www.portlandmercury.com/Blog...ured-in-a-year

-- Jay Beattie.




It was icy this morning, and I was particularly careful on the sled hill which is a quarter mile or so of 16-20% of badly broken concrete.

Look at it this way -- there are a lot of crashes I did and do avoid. I stayed upright yesterday, sliding along with my wheels locked.


The first time I rode a bicycle southbound through St. George Ontario Canada I was on a long downhill run and riding at traffic speed which is around 30 mph. My buddy was to my left. Without any warning at all the lane I was in ended just like the one in your farm4.static.flickr.com/3046/2495012212_223dd5bed8.jpg image. I bunny hopped up over the curb and was able to come to a safe stop before going back onto the road.

There are two very interesting bicyclists on this newsgroup. One is Joerg who is always having problems and the other is Frank who NEVER has a problem or crash. Frank reminds me of Eddy Merckx who when asked his opinion of index shifting replied, "I have not missed a shift since I was eight years old!" Both are kind of unbelievable.

Cheers
  #184  
Old February 22nd 19, 03:02 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
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Posts: 805
Default Latest on Australian Mandatory Helmet Law propaganda

On Thu, 21 Feb 2019 17:21:56 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, February 21, 2019 at 1:10:40 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, February 21, 2019 at 9:03:50 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/20/2019 11:48 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 at 6:47:19 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:

And perhaps you shouldn't credit my lack of crashing to magic? I think
there's something to be said for riding within the limits of one's
abilities.

That and not riding in ice or at night on rain soaked roads with hidden pot holes or on broken wet cement...

Except that I've done all those things!

on tires with clay-based pigments or Umma Gummas that were pulled from the market.

OK, I haven't done that one.

It also helps not to have you son crash in front of you on a slippery descent.

I've ridden with people who have crashed. I pay attention to the
behavior of riders, and I don't draft any but the best.

But if I were in a slippery descent, I think I'd take it a lot slower
than you. I don't see any sense in pushing for speed in risky situations.

I doubt you often encounter hills where you keep going even when your wheels are stopped. https://tinyurl.com/y53jrl9d I about slid through the stop sign. That was on 32mm semi-slicks. Do you ever ride on moss? I ride in rain the equivalent of four solid months a year, in traffic with lots of other cyclists, walkers, dogs -- often in the dark. There are a lot of reasons for crashing that do not suggest incompetence.

Our philosophies differ. I think that most times a cyclist crashes, it's
for reasons that could have and should have been foreseen. So potholes?
In my commuting days, I was rarely surprised by them. I knew the
stretches of road where they first appeared - often where the pavement
was partly shaded by trees, for example. Corners? I watch for gravel.
Dogs? High alert every time, leashed or not.

There were many years I tried to be fast, usually time trialing home
from work. I might do some slightly tricky moves as part of that,
notably jumping a set of angled railroad tracks. But it was within my
level of skill (since I always did it successfully). And where things
were more uncertain, like corners that sometimes had gravel, I was more
conservative.

I may have told this story before, but on one ride with my daughter, we
approached a set of railroad tracks just after a rain. I said "Be
careful, the tracks are going to be slippery." The kid said "Oh, Dad!!"
in the way kids are programmed to do. Then she dumped onto the ground.

We were almost side by side, going the same speed. But I think I was
more careful than she was, to ride perfectly straight and not jerk the
bike. Sometimes that's all it takes.

I think it was last week that I rode to the library on icy streets. To
tell the truth, I didn't realize they were as icy as they were; if I
had, I might not have taken the bike. But I did keep going - very, very
slowly and carefully. There were times I was riding at 3 mph on icy
turns, keeping the bike as upright as possible and ready to put my foot
down instantly.

You probably would have beat me to the library. But I was happy to keep
my crash risk to a minimum.


I doubt you could teach me anything about technique, particularly when it comes to train tracks. Downtown is solid Max and streetcar tracks. A small segment of my commute through south waterfront: https://bikeportland.org/wp-content/...moody-high.jpg The best part of downtown are the MAX tracks combined with the cobbles or the slippery death-brick pavers. We get 140-150 days of rain. Have you ever ridden for 140-150 days on wet pavement in a year? I've done that for the last 35 years. It's a jungle out there. http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3046/...223dd5bed8.jpg If you had raced for 20 years, I could also guaranty that you would have crashed. Anybody who rides daily will at some time crash. https://bikeportland.org/2010/11/11/...released-42622 https://www.portlandmercury.com/Blog...ured-in-a-year

-- Jay Beattie.




It was icy this morning, and I was particularly careful on the sled hill which is a quarter mile or so of 16-20% of badly broken concrete.

Look at it this way -- there are a lot of crashes I did and do avoid. I stayed upright yesterday, sliding along with my wheels locked.


The first time I rode a bicycle southbound through St. George Ontario Canada I was on a long downhill run and riding at traffic speed which is around 30 mph. My buddy was to my left. Without any warning at all the lane I was in ended just like the one in your farm4.static.flickr.com/3046/2495012212_223dd5bed8.jpg image. I bunny hopped up over the curb and was able to come to a safe stop before going back onto the road.

There are two very interesting bicyclists on this newsgroup. One is Joerg who is always having problems and the other is Frank who NEVER has a problem or crash. Frank reminds me of Eddy Merckx who when asked his opinion of index shifting replied, "I have not missed a shift since I was eight years old!" Both are kind of unbelievable.

Cheers


I can't say as I agree with you. I've had two crashes in the 20 years
or so that I've been riding, during my adult years, that were severe
enough to break bones. And both were entirely my own fault, so I don't
believe that Frank is any way unique.

But then, I, and probably Frank, cheat. We ride in a manner
commensurate with the conditions.

--
Cheers,
John B.


  #185  
Old February 22nd 19, 04:38 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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On 2/21/2019 8:21 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

There are two very interesting bicyclists on this newsgroup. One is Joerg who is always having problems and the other is Frank who NEVER has a problem or crash. Frank reminds me of Eddy Merckx who when asked his opinion of index shifting replied, "I have not missed a shift since I was eight years old!" Both are kind of unbelievable.


Disbelieve if you must. I've had precisely two moving on-road falls as
an adult, counting since I bought my first ten-count-'em-ten speed in
1972. The first was descending a city street with a gradient of about
15% in winter, when my front wheel slipped out on the road salt when I
tried to avoid some broken glass. I was going barely above walking
speed. The second was when the front forks snapped off our tandem when I
hit a rough patch at less than 10 mph.

I've fallen other times. I once toppled over while stationary at a
traffic light, losing my balance as I tried to twist around to fix
something on the back of the bike. I've fallen several times while
mountain biking, trying to "clean" tricky terrain, trying to blast down,
then up a narrow trail at a former strip mine, riding trails in icy
conditions, etc. And as a kid, I fell occasionally. One of my worst
falls was riding through a parking lot and not seeing that it held a
platform scale with a tire-swallowing gap. I broke my over-the-bars fall
with my bare hands (no gloves in those days) and scraped up my palms
pretty badly.

But I've always been reasonably careful riding. And I have a habit of
thinking ahead. Maybe I'll crash tomorrow - but I doubt it.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #186  
Old February 22nd 19, 10:00 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Rolf Mantel[_2_]
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Posts: 267
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Am 22.02.2019 um 00:26 schrieb Andre Jute:
I have been told that driving in Germany was so dangerous that Americans often would not do so.


No. German drivers are good. The most dangerous drivers in Europe are the British.


I do not know any measure by which British Drivers are more dangerous
than German drivers. Yes, German drivers are good (to a very large
extent) but they risk compensate and use their skill for driving
recklessly fast.

What is certainly extremely dangerous is when American tourists rent a
fast car and try to drive like the Germans, without the regular practice
of looking at the traffic half a mile ahead that you need if you wish to
drive 50 mph faster than the guy on the other lane (you need to
anticipate lane changes perfectly for that driving style).
  #187  
Old February 22nd 19, 10:09 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Rolf Mantel[_2_]
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Am 21.02.2019 um 22:33 schrieb Frank Krygowski:
Anybody who rides daily will at some time crash.


That's much less believable. It depends on their riding conditions,
their skill and their attitude toward risk. And almost everyone who does
crash while riding has only a simple fall and incurs only minor
injuries. The most common injury bike riders present at ER is road rash.


I do believe this. I believe the average for regular riders is to have a
fall once a year (independent of mileage), and safety-concerned,
experienced cyclists can easily bring that down to once every 5-10 years.

Even as an experienced cyclist, there are occasional new unexpected
situations (in my case in the last 20 years: once losing focus of
streetcar tracks in heavy rain when turning, once crossing points of
streetcar track that were icy); you might make sure you never repeat a
stupid mistake but avoiding them in the first place is hard.
  #188  
Old February 22nd 19, 10:25 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
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On Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:00:48 +0100, Rolf Mantel
wrote:

Am 22.02.2019 um 00:26 schrieb Andre Jute:
I have been told that driving in Germany was so dangerous that Americans often would not do so.


No. German drivers are good. The most dangerous drivers in Europe are the British.


I do not know any measure by which British Drivers are more dangerous
than German drivers. Yes, German drivers are good (to a very large
extent) but they risk compensate and use their skill for driving
recklessly fast.

What is certainly extremely dangerous is when American tourists rent a
fast car and try to drive like the Germans, without the regular practice
of looking at the traffic half a mile ahead that you need if you wish to
drive 50 mph faster than the guy on the other lane (you need to
anticipate lane changes perfectly for that driving style).


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate
The U.S. records 12.9 deaths per 100,000 motor vehicles (2013), the
U.K. - 5.1 and Germany 6.8. In comparison, France - 7.6, the
Netherlands - 6 and Switzerland 3.6.


--
Cheers,
John B.


  #189  
Old February 22nd 19, 10:48 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 10,422
Default Latest on Australian Mandatory Helmet Law propaganda

On Friday, February 22, 2019 at 9:00:51 AM UTC, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 22.02.2019 um 00:26 schrieb Andre Jute:
I have been told that driving in Germany was so dangerous that Americans often would not do so.


No. German drivers are good. The most dangerous drivers in Europe are the British.


I do not know any measure by which British Drivers are more dangerous
than German drivers. Yes, German drivers are good (to a very large
extent) but they risk compensate and use their skill for driving
recklessly fast.

What is certainly extremely dangerous is when American tourists rent a
fast car and try to drive like the Germans, without the regular practice
of looking at the traffic half a mile ahead that you need if you wish to
drive 50 mph faster than the guy on the other lane (you need to
anticipate lane changes perfectly for that driving style).


You gave us the measure of German superiority yourself: practice at very high speed driving and its attendant anticipations.

Andre Jute
A critic compares
  #190  
Old February 22nd 19, 11:11 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Rolf Mantel[_2_]
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Posts: 267
Default Latest on Australian Mandatory Helmet Law propaganda

Am 22.02.2019 um 10:48 schrieb Andre Jute:
No. German drivers are good. The most dangerous drivers in Europe
are the British.


I do not know any measure by which British Drivers are more
dangerous than German drivers. Yes, German drivers are good (to a
very large extent) but they risk compensate and use their skill for
driving recklessly fast.


You gave us the measure of German superiority yourself: practice at
very high speed driving and its attendant anticipations.


Sure, having lived in UK, USA and Germany I fully agree that the driving
quality is a lot higher in Germany than in the other two countries.
However, this does *not* bring reduced danger as compared to the UK
(which is one of the safest countries in the world for driving) due to
massively increased aggressiveness.

After returning to Germany, I avoided car driving as much as possible
for close to 10 years due to the high stress levels, taking most trips
by train and bicycle.

Rolf
 




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