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#21
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First road bike: braking?
David L. Johnson:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:52:54 +0000, Jose Rizal wrote: These come at costs, though, and become uncomfortable over time. See below. Drop bars become uncomfortable over time? Compared to mountain bike bars? No, hand positioning other than on the hoods in drop bars become uncomfortable over time. How much time do you spend with your hands on the drops, and on the drops where your hands are within reach of the brake levers? So, this is why long-distnace tourists all use drop bars? To be uncomfortable? Don't argue with yourself. Not ALL long-distance tourists use drop bars. What you've seen and what is the absolute number are two different things. If you have figures, post them. Not true about drop bars. The only time your hands are in position for easy operation of the brakes is when they are in the hoods, except when the brakes have extensions which allow operation on the top of the bars. Not at all. Hands on the drops can easily reach both the brakes and the shifters (except fo Sora) of modern units. True, not on the tops, but riding on the tops is only for a change of pace. Modern cross and touring bikes do have secondary brake levers to operate on the tops, but I don't find them necessary. Not in the position when your hand is in the weight-bearing mode. You can easily reach the brakes only when your hands are gripping the section close to the curve to the hoods. This is not a comfortable weight-bearing position for hands. Even at the hoods the grip you can have on the brake levers don't allow as good leverage as you can have in a straight bar. True, but that is not the point. You have more than enough leverage to send you over the bars in an endo. That is more than enough leverage for any stop. Yours is not the point. Most of everyone do not brake to perform an endo. It's harder to modulate your braking when your fingers are so close to the pivot point of the brake lever (hands on hoods), and the better brake lever grip afforded by placing your hands on the drop where the curve is does not allow for long-term grip comfort. The hand positions on drop bars come at the cost of changing your body angle as well. The result is that riding on the lowest part can only be done over short periods since it changes the weight taken up by your hands, and your neck gets more strained looking at the road by the upper body being positioned lower down. Look, you've obviously not ridden a road bike much. So, you are uncomfortable on one. If you rode it more, you would become more comfortable. Lots of us do that. Don't pass it off as impossible because you are unfamiliar with it. No one mentioned it being impossible. You conveniently ignored the change in body position that comes with changing your hand positions using drop bars, and this is a very important factor in comfort since these changes can be uncomfortable especially on long-distance rides. Sure, with time many people can adjust and become used to it, but the fact remains that drop bars do not necessarily offer a better solution for comfort than straight bars. This "drop bars are superior to straight bars" argument smacks of "roadbike-is-superior-to-mountainbike" attitude, and is a lore oft repeated by many. |
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#22
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First road bike: braking?
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:22:43 +0000, Jose Rizal wrote:
Drop bars become uncomfortable over time? Compared to mountain bike bars? No, hand positioning other than on the hoods in drop bars become uncomfortable over time. So does the single position available with mountain bars. Plus, the more upright position is more uncomfortable on the butt, as well as being slower. How much time do you spend with your hands on the drops, and on the drops where your hands are within reach of the brake levers? Only about 10% of the time, depending on the ride. All of that is within reach of the brake levers. I never ride with my hands on the bottom of the drops, but up in the hooks. With a finger on the brake lever. So, this is why long-distnace tourists all use drop bars? To be uncomfortable? Don't argue with yourself. I'm not. It's called irony. I will avoid it in this reply in order to be clear. Not ALL long-distance tourists use drop bars. What you've seen and what is the absolute number are two different things. If you have figures, post them. Of course I don't. No one does. It's not as if there is a sanctioning organization that lists every tourist. But I've been out there, and the number of long-distance riders with straight bars is very small. Not at all. Hands on the drops can easily reach both the brakes and the shifters (except fo Sora) of modern units. True, not on the tops, but riding on the tops is only for a change of pace. Modern cross and touring bikes do have secondary brake levers to operate on the tops, but I don't find them necessary. Not in the position when your hand is in the weight-bearing mode. You can easily reach the brakes only when your hands are gripping the section close to the curve to the hoods. This is not a comfortable weight-bearing position for hands. Again, you are not used to it. You have to have the proper fit in order to be comfortable with your hands in the hooks. But don't simply say that it is not possible. Yours is not the point. Most of everyone do not brake to perform an endo. It's harder to modulate your braking when your fingers are so close to the pivot point of the brake lever (hands on hoods), You make these statements as if they were true, but they aren't. It is very simple to modulate your braking on the hoods. Thousands of us do it every day. and the better brake lever grip afforded by placing your hands on the drop where the curve is does not allow for long-term grip comfort. There you go again. You say it over and over, and maybe it'll become true? No single position is comfortable over the long term. That's the advantage of road bars. You have multiple positions, giving you a chance to rest one group of muscles and use another. Look, you've obviously not ridden a road bike much. So, you are uncomfortable on one. If you rode it more, you would become more comfortable. Lots of us do that. Don't pass it off as impossible because you are unfamiliar with it. No one mentioned it being impossible. You conveniently ignored the change in body position that comes with changing your hand positions using drop bars, and this is a very important factor in comfort since these changes can be uncomfortable especially on long-distance rides. Again, there are thousands, hundreds of thousands, of riders who know better than this. Making blanket statements to the contrary of common experience is pointless. The change in body position is not a negative, it gives you a chance to rest some muscles and use others. A single body position is deadly on a long ride. This "drop bars are superior to straight bars" argument smacks of "roadbike-is-superior-to-mountainbike" attitude, and is a lore oft repeated by many. Let's see. The original poster was talking about riding on roads. Now, which kind of bike would be more comfortable on a road ride, a mountain bike or a road bike? For me, the answer is obvious. If you noticed, it was for the OP as well. -- David L. Johnson __o | the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. _`\(,_ | That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being (_)/ (_) | attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country. -- Hermann Goering |
#23
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First road bike: braking?
David L. Johnson:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:22:43 +0000, Jose Rizal wrote: Drop bars become uncomfortable over time? Compared to mountain bike bars? No, hand positioning other than on the hoods in drop bars become uncomfortable over time. So does the single position available with mountain bars. Hence bar ends on mountain bars. Plus, the more upright position is more uncomfortable on the butt, as well as being slower. But you know very well that the more upright position can be fixed by adjusting stem height and angle. In fact, body angle on a road bike can be easily replicated on a mountain bike with mountain bars. The issue is hand positions. How much time do you spend with your hands on the drops, and on the drops where your hands are within reach of the brake levers? Only about 10% of the time, depending on the ride. All of that is within reach of the brake levers. I never ride with my hands on the bottom of the drops, but up in the hooks. With a finger on the brake lever. Whereas a mountain bar allows you to ride within easy reach of the brakes most of the time. There are now also brake levers with extensions to enable braking from bar ends. Not ALL long-distance tourists use drop bars. What you've seen and what is the absolute number are two different things. If you have figures, post them. Of course I don't. No one does. It's not as if there is a sanctioning organization that lists every tourist. But I've been out there, and the number of long-distance riders with straight bars is very small. Then consider people in countries who use bicycles as utility vehicles, hauling cargo and people all day, everyday. If you have not observed them in countries (particularly in SE Asia), there are plenty of websites where you can see that not many of them use dropbars. Not at all. Hands on the drops can easily reach both the brakes and the shifters (except fo Sora) of modern units. True, not on the tops, but riding on the tops is only for a change of pace. Modern cross and touring bikes do have secondary brake levers to operate on the tops, but I don't find them necessary. Not in the position when your hand is in the weight-bearing mode. You can easily reach the brakes only when your hands are gripping the section close to the curve to the hoods. This is not a comfortable weight-bearing position for hands. Again, you are not used to it. You have to have the proper fit in order to be comfortable with your hands in the hooks. But don't simply say that it is not possible. So you need to get used to dropbars in order to be more comfortable with them. Why, if that isn't the same reasoning when using mountain bars... Look at the design of the road brake lever. At the vertical position, it is obvious that it is meant to be grasped below the pivot point, with fingers that exert a force perpendicular to the lever. When you operate it from the hood, it is easy to see that you do not have as better a grip (in terms of leverage and "feel" for modulation) because you are exerting force on the lever from points close to the pivot, and at a significant angle from perpendicular to the lever. The fact that you and many others are used to it does not imply that it is easier or just as efficient than in mountain bars. Maybe you can juggle three or more apples too, but that says nothing about the universal ease and efficiency with which others will find that. Yours is not the point. Most of everyone do not brake to perform an endo. It's harder to modulate your braking when your fingers are so close to the pivot point of the brake lever (hands on hoods), You make these statements as if they were true, but they aren't. It is very simple to modulate your braking on the hoods. Thousands of us do it every day. And how many more don't manage to do that *easily* ? The issue is ease, not simplicity nor whether you can do it or not, and my argument is that it is easier with mountain bars. You want to make it seem as if the fact that many people have become used to dropbars imply that it's easier and more comfortable. The latter does not follow the former. and the better brake lever grip afforded by placing your hands on the drop where the curve is does not allow for long-term grip comfort. There you go again. You say it over and over, and maybe it'll become true? You dismiss it without reason other than because you're used to it. There's no compelling argument there. No single position is comfortable over the long term. That's the advantage of road bars. You have multiple positions, giving you a chance to rest one group of muscles and use another. And again, at the cost of changing your body angle which may not be desirable for the rider. You don't want to mention this at all. You can accomplish a different position with bar ends without changing body angle significantly. Look, you've obviously not ridden a road bike much. So, you are uncomfortable on one. If you rode it more, you would become more comfortable. Lots of us do that. Don't pass it off as impossible because you are unfamiliar with it. No one mentioned it being impossible. You conveniently ignored the change in body position that comes with changing your hand positions using drop bars, and this is a very important factor in comfort since these changes can be uncomfortable especially on long-distance rides. Again, there are thousands, hundreds of thousands, of riders who know better than this. Making blanket statements to the contrary of common experience is pointless. The change in body position is not a negative, it gives you a chance to rest some muscles and use others. A single body position is deadly on a long ride. If it were as you preach, then most of every cyclist would be riding bicycles with dropbars. This is not so, despite your hundreds of thousands of riders, and this implies that dropbars do not represent the best choice in comfort, be it road rides or anything else. This "drop bars are superior to straight bars" argument smacks of "roadbike-is-superior-to-mountainbike" attitude, and is a lore oft repeated by many. Let's see. The original poster was talking about riding on roads. Now, which kind of bike would be more comfortable on a road ride, a mountain bike or a road bike? For me, the answer is obvious. You've been arguing on types of handlebars, now you extend it to bicycle type. The answer may be obvious to you, but it is not to me. I'm sticking to the features and merits of handlebar types instead of including gearing, wheel characteristics and other distinctions between the two bicycle types. If you noticed, it was for the OP as well. This doesn't support your argument, without knowing if a proper fit on a mountain bike could have helped. |
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First road bike: braking?
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 02:42:49 +0000, Jose Rizal wrote:
Plus, the more upright position is more uncomfortable on the butt, as well as being slower. But you know very well that the more upright position can be fixed by adjusting stem height and angle. In fact, body angle on a road bike can be easily replicated on a mountain bike with mountain bars. The issue is hand positions. I thought you were saying how bad the body position is on the drops on a road bike. It is better to have more than one body position as well as hand position. Whereas a mountain bar allows you to ride within easy reach of the brakes most of the time. There are now also brake levers with extensions to enable braking from bar ends. Not ALL long-distance tourists use drop bars. What you've seen and what is the absolute number are two different things. If you have figures, post them. Of course I don't. No one does. It's not as if there is a sanctioning organization that lists every tourist. But I've been out there, and the number of long-distance riders with straight bars is very small. Then consider people in countries who use bicycles as utility vehicles, hauling cargo and people all day, everyday. If you have not observed them in countries (particularly in SE Asia), there are plenty of websites where you can see that not many of them use dropbars. Nor do many of them take long trips. Hauling cargo is a short-distance proposition. So you need to get used to dropbars in order to be more comfortable with them. Why, if that isn't the same reasoning when using mountain bars... It's not, because you do not get used to riding for long distnaces with only one hand position, or (even with bar ends) only one back position. Look at the design of the road brake lever. At the vertical position, it is obvious that it is meant to be grasped below the pivot point, with fingers that exert a force perpendicular to the lever. Why is that obvious? If it is "meant" to be gripped like that, why are the hoods padded? When you operate it from the hood, it is easy to see that you do not have as better a grip (in terms of leverage and "feel" for modulation) because you are exerting force on the lever from points close to the pivot, and at a significant angle from perpendicular to the lever. The fact that you and many others are used to it does not imply that it is easier or just as efficient than in mountain bars. Long back in this thread, I did agree that road brake levers are not as efficient as mountain bars. They don't have to be. They serve their purpose well. And how many more don't manage to do that *easily* ? The issue is ease, not simplicity nor whether you can do it or not, and my argument is that it is easier with mountain bars. You want to make it seem as if the fact that many people have become used to dropbars imply that it's easier and more comfortable. The latter does not follow the former. Your last statement is true. It may not be as easy at first. So? It's certainly learnable, and when you do get used to it, drop bars are more comfortable on longer trips. and the better brake lever grip afforded by placing your hands on the drop where the curve is does not allow for long-term grip comfort. There you go again. You say it over and over, and maybe it'll become true? You dismiss it without reason other than because you're used to it. There's no compelling argument there. Nor is there a compelling argument when you simply state that the position "does not allow for long-term comfort". That is simply false. And again, at the cost of changing your body angle which may not be desirable for the rider. You don't want to mention this at all. Actually, I did. I stated that changing the body position from time to time is more comfortable than being locked into one position. Whether it "may not" be desirable for "the" rider (which rider?) -- well, that depends on the rider. But those with many miles of experience racing, riding in tours, centuries, and the like overwhelmingly choose drop bars -- for comfort in the long haul. This "drop bars are superior to straight bars" argument smacks of "roadbike-is-superior-to-mountainbike" attitude, and is a lore oft repeated by many. Let's see. The original poster was talking about riding on roads. Now, which kind of bike would be more comfortable on a road ride, a mountain bike or a road bike? For me, the answer is obvious. You've been arguing on types of handlebars, now you extend it to bicycle type. Actually, read three paragraphs up. You extended the argument to bicycle type. -- David L. Johnson __o | More people object to wearing fur than leather because it is _`\(,_ | safer to harrass rich white women than motorcycle gangs. (_)/ (_) | |
#25
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First road bike: braking?
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:00:19 GMT, Jose Rizal wrote:
There's nothing in what you post which suggests anything other than a poor fit on your mountain bike. Perhaps. Taken in isolation, I agree: hand numbness probably isn't enough reason to want to get a whole new bike. However it isn't the only reason I want a road bike though. It's a purchase I've been contemplating for some time. I want to ride faster and do longer distance rides more efficiently. Can't I just be happy with my new toy? ;-) -alan -- Alan Hoyle - - http://www.alanhoyle.com/ "I don't want the world, I just want your half." -TMBG Get Horizontal, Play Ultimate. |
#26
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First road bike: braking?
Alan Hoyle wrote in message ...
I'm in the market for my first road bike. I currently use a '94 Trek 970 mountain bike with slicks for commuting (3 miles) that I've upgraded several times over the years (notably XT V brakes, Rockshox FSX carbon fork, and a few other things) but I've been doing some slightly longer rides and have found it uncomfortable, particularly my hands get numb after a while. So, I've been test driving a few road bikes. While they have all seemed to be more comfortable and seem more efficient, the brakes have invariably seemed to be far less powerful than I'm used to. Is this universal for road bikes? Is there any way to make them stop faster? -alan Alan, My road bike has the newer dual pivot Ultegra brakes and I can slide the bike from the hoods without much effort. I brake carefully so my front wheel doesn't skid as I may want to turn while braking as in avoiding car doors. It takes a while to get the hang of it and get good in an emergency. My mountain bike has disk brakes. They stop just as well as the road bike. In other words I can apply the brakes on either bike to take maximum use of the rubber on the road/trail or hard enough to skid either one. The road bike has less rubber on the road so it takes longer to stop on the road. The road bike is much faster too so the problem is compounded. The road bike will stop in the road faster than I can get the mountain bike stopped in the hard pack dirt though at the same speed. It's all a matter of traction once the clampers are working right! John |
#27
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First road bike: braking?
David L. Johnson:
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 02:42:49 +0000, Jose Rizal wrote: Then consider people in countries who use bicycles as utility vehicles, hauling cargo and people all day, everyday. If you have not observed them in countries (particularly in SE Asia), there are plenty of websites where you can see that not many of them use dropbars. Nor do many of them take long trips. Hauling cargo is a short-distance proposition. Come now. Hauling cargo and people all day, everyday, for most of the year is a long-distance proposition. These people do more miles with heavier cargo than any tourist per year, or even six months. Comfort is a very big factor in their bike usage, and drop bars don't afford that to them. Look at the design of the road brake lever. At the vertical position, it is obvious that it is meant to be grasped below the pivot point, with fingers that exert a force perpendicular to the lever. Why is that obvious? If it is "meant" to be gripped like that, why are the hoods padded? From a mechanical operation viewpoint, the shape of the lever (how the fingers are meant to grasp it) and its movement about its pivot clearly indicates that the most efficient and easiest way to exert maximum leverage on it is by applying a force perpendicular to the lever. The further away from the pivot you push the lever, the lower the force you need to move it. The fact that there is a hook at the end of the lever indicates that your fingers are meant to be held close to that point. You already know this; compare the effort you need to operate the brakes (with one finger as you stated) when your hands are on the "hook" below the hoods, to that required when your hands are on the hoods. The fact that the hoods are padded is an indication only that people do grasp their handlebars at this position, allowing operation of the brake levers albeit with more effort than necessary and adapting to the poor ergonomic design of the road brake lever/dropbar arrangement (rather that having the design adapt to the human body). I think it's one of the more neglected components in a bicycle, which can use a re-design. There is no doubt in my mind that a more ergonomically satisfying design can be implemented on road brake levers on road bars operated from the hoods, but since most people who use drop bars put up with it, there doesn't seem to be any incentive to component manufacturers to do so. And how many more don't manage to do that *easily* ? The issue is ease, not simplicity nor whether you can do it or not, and my argument is that it is easier with mountain bars. You want to make it seem as if the fact that many people have become used to dropbars imply that it's easier and more comfortable. The latter does not follow the former. Your last statement is true. It may not be as easy at first. So? It's certainly learnable, and when you do get used to it, drop bars are more comfortable on longer trips. The last sentence is certainly a subjective one. I've gotten used to hauling backpacks weighing 75 lbs over hilly terrain with dense vegetation, but it's certainly not become easier nor more comfortable. I could just tolerate it better. and the better brake lever grip afforded by placing your hands on the drop where the curve is does not allow for long-term grip comfort. There you go again. You say it over and over, and maybe it'll become true? You dismiss it without reason other than because you're used to it. There's no compelling argument there. Nor is there a compelling argument when you simply state that the position "does not allow for long-term comfort". That is simply false. I don't find it allows for the same comfort as a mountain bar. Many long-distance utility bikers I've observed don't, either. I've explained why, and you haven't rendered my explanations invalid. However, I concede that adding "for all" to my statement above is required to make it true and more accurate. And again, at the cost of changing your body angle which may not be desirable for the rider. You don't want to mention this at all. Actually, I did. I stated that changing the body position from time to time is more comfortable than being locked into one position. Whether it "may not" be desirable for "the" rider (which rider?) -- well, that depends on the rider. But those with many miles of experience racing, riding in tours, centuries, and the like overwhelmingly choose drop bars -- for comfort in the long haul. I'm not convinced that it's for "comfort in the long haul". I think "easier to have gotten used to" for these riders you mention is more accurate. This "drop bars are superior to straight bars" argument smacks of "roadbike-is-superior-to-mountainbike" attitude, and is a lore oft repeated by many. Let's see. The original poster was talking about riding on roads. Now, which kind of bike would be more comfortable on a road ride, a mountain bike or a road bike? For me, the answer is obvious. You've been arguing on types of handlebars, now you extend it to bicycle type. Actually, read three paragraphs up. You extended the argument to bicycle type. If you read it carefully, I suggested that the pro-dropbars argument stemmed from an attitude borne out of a perception that road bikes are superior to mountain bikes. Nowhere did I extend the argument to types of bikes. |
#28
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First road bike: braking?
Alan Hoyle:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:00:19 GMT, Jose Rizal wrote: There's nothing in what you post which suggests anything other than a poor fit on your mountain bike. Perhaps. Taken in isolation, I agree: hand numbness probably isn't enough reason to want to get a whole new bike. However it isn't the only reason I want a road bike though. It's a purchase I've been contemplating for some time. I want to ride faster and do longer distance rides more efficiently. Can't I just be happy with my new toy? ;-) In my mind, you don't have to have a "logical" justification to acquire and be happy with a new bike, unless you really can't afford it... |
#29
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First road bike: braking?
"Jose Rizal" wrote in message
ink.net... Come now. Hauling cargo and people all day, everyday, for most of the year is a long-distance proposition. These people do more miles with heavier cargo than any tourist per year, or even six months. Comfort is a very big factor in their bike usage, and drop bars don't afford that to them. Comfort doesn't mean diddly-squat to these people. They do with what they have or can get. I had the pleasure of letting an Indian student test-ride a multi-speed drop-bar bike. As he fumbled around and ground the gears (no STI on this one), his buddy told me that they just didn't have multi-gear bikes in India. By your logic, this would mean that single-speed bikes are the most comfortable, right? You should also note that the upright position on cargo, utility and even single-speed bikes places most of the rider's weight on the saddle, not the hands. Aerodynamics and ergonomics are simply non-issues in these countries. To take this argument one step further, consider the role of the recumbent bike in the third world. While it is obvious that a recumbent would be a lot more comfortable, how many pictures do you see of recumbents there? Expense shouldn't be a concern because once mass-produced, they would be the same price as the ancient designs that they already ride. Why aren't recumbents seen all over the third world? It's simple - they just aren't available and probably wouldn't be accepted even if they were. Modern multi-speed mountain bikes are available all over the place, but they just aren't seen in India. By your arguments, they would be more comfortable and certainly more efficient. But that isn't what is found because a market doesn't exist. Oh yeah, don't forget that they also require more maintenance as well. From a mechanical operation viewpoint, the shape of the lever (how the fingers are meant to grasp it) and its movement about its pivot clearly indicates that the most efficient and easiest way to exert maximum leverage on it is by applying a force perpendicular to the lever. The Have you bothered to ride a modern road bike lately? Maximum leverage just isn't needed. If your brakes are set up properly, the amount of force required to brake from the hoods is minimal and modulation is a non-issue. Heck, even my 20 year old road bike with centerpulls can be stopped just fine from the hoods. The fact that the hoods are padded is an indication only that people do grasp their handlebars at this position, allowing operation of the brake levers albeit with more effort than necessary and adapting to the poor ergonomic design of the road brake lever/dropbar arrangement (rather that having the design adapt to the human body). I think it's one of It takes hardly any force to brake from the hoods with modern brakes. Even my wife can do it with her petite hands. I'm not convinced that it's for "comfort in the long haul". I think "easier to have gotten used to" for these riders you mention is more accurate. Here's some evidence against your "comfort" concerns. I commuted on a full-suspension mountain bike with slicks for many years. It was great for the bumps, but put me in a position that was certainly not aerodynamic. I *could* have modified the position, but then it wouldn't have been a good bike for bombing the trails on the weekend. I got my hands on an old road bike which I then modified with flat bars and bar-ends so I could use it for commuting and recreational road rides pulling a trailer. My position was considerably more aerodynamic, but I started having hand and wrist problems. I tried several different stems, modified the position of the bar-ends, and even tried bars with a different bend, but nothing could make the problem disappear. The solution was simple. When your arms are to your side, which way are your palms? Your hands should fall naturally to your side with your palms inward. This also happens to be the best way for your palms when your hands are extended forward. But flat bars rotate your hands so the palms are down. This rotation affects circulation and strains muscles, tendons, etc. Road bars allow you to keep your palms rotated inward. Before my problems set in (which didn't occur until the mileage increased), I thought that the flat-bar road bike was such a great idea that I wanted to buy a new one. But now I have changed my mind. If I am going to put in some miles with the trailer, I want a drop bar for the best hand positions. Of course, you will argue that you can get the same thing with a set of bar-ends. But this is simply not true. When you use bar-ends, your hands have to move to a position that is wider, thus keeping your arms out of the best alignment (the best alignment would be directly forward - the place where you put your flat-bar grips, no?). This also creates greater frontal area which messes up your aerodynamics. I ask you, since when has aerodynamics been a concern for people in third-world countries using utility bikes? Since when has ergonomics been an issue to them as well? Finally, since when could you move from a very upright position to a very low and aerodynamic position with a set of flat bars? Without a set of aerobars attached to your flat bars, you simply cannot duplicate the full range of positions available with a set of drop bars. This isn't to say that the flat bar doesn't have some advantages. Off-road, flat bars can't be beat. They provide greater leverage, a more upright position, and greater visibility in the rough. On-road, the more upright position makes it easier to see and be seen, while the greater leverage makes dealing with urban obstacles easier. My solution to my wrist and hand problems was to put the drop bars back onto the trailer-hauler. For short road rides while pulling the trailer in traffic, I usually grab the rigid mountain bike with slicks. For longer weekend trips pulling the trailer, I grab the old road bike (now with drop bars back in place). My newer road bike is reserved for long solo rides. Trips to the trail requires the full-suspension mountain bike, of course. And my '63 Schwinn Panther (the one most like the utility bikes you are fond of referring to) is reserved for slow cruises through the neighborhood or the occasional parade. It just isn't comfortable enough for anything else. If you read it carefully, I suggested that the pro-dropbars argument stemmed from an attitude borne out of a perception that road bikes are superior to mountain bikes. Nowhere did I extend the argument to types of bikes. This has absolutely nothing to do with the "superiority" of either type of bike. For long rides where the body position is not likely to change for long periods of time, it's hard to beat a drop bar. For off-road rides where moving around on the bike and changing positions often is the norm, flat bars rule. This same discussion came up about saddles recently. One guy complained that his favorite off-road saddle was now giving him problems. The real problem was that he put slicks on his mountain bike and was riding the road for long periods of time. What was fine for bouncing around off-road was putting his parts to sleep because he just didn't move around as much and the saddle cut off his circulation. Please don't bother using the third-world as an example any longer. Their wants and needs are quite different from ours. And the bikes available to them are quite different as well. If you want to make comparisons, then talk about the uses of bikes within the modern world where all varieties of bikes are available. But don't give us any crap about market share - the mountain bike with knobbies has been dominating the market for years despite better choices being available for the intended uses. Markets tend to go for what is "in" or "cool," not what is best for the use. -Buck |
#30
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First road bike: braking?
Buck:
"Jose Rizal" wrote in message ink.net... Come now. Hauling cargo and people all day, everyday, for most of the year is a long-distance proposition. These people do more miles with heavier cargo than any tourist per year, or even six months. Comfort is a very big factor in their bike usage, and drop bars don't afford that to them. Comfort doesn't mean diddly-squat to these people. They do with what they have or can get. I had the pleasure of letting an Indian student test-ride a multi-speed drop-bar bike. As he fumbled around and ground the gears (no STI on this one), his buddy told me that they just didn't have multi-gear bikes in India. By your logic, this would mean that single-speed bikes are the most comfortable, right? What a ridiculous projection. Don't equate your "logic" to mine. Gears are a whole different issue to handlebars, where local multipurpose mechanics in the countries I mentioned make ones up from ordinary steel tubing. It's not an issue to get any shaped handlebar you like. The fact is that not very many at all choose the common drop bar shape. You should also note that the upright position on cargo, utility and even single-speed bikes places most of the rider's weight on the saddle, not the hands. Exactly. Aerodynamics and ergonomics are simply non-issues in these countries. Comfort is, and you've stated nothing which counters this. To take this argument one step further, consider the role of the recumbent bike in the third world. While it is obvious that a recumbent would be a lot more comfortable, how many pictures do you see of recumbents there? Another ridiculous argument. You're seriously comparing a type of bicycle to handlebar shape and the ease with which you can obtain either? Expense shouldn't be a concern because once mass-produced, they would be the same price as the ancient designs that they already ride. Assuming they will be mass-consumed. This is a huge assumption without basis on your part. Why aren't recumbents seen all over the third world? It's simple - they just aren't available and probably wouldn't be accepted even if they were. You've just made up your argument and dismissed it yourself. To summarise it, "Recumbents can be mass produced in [insert country here], hence they can't be too expensive for poverty-stricken people, but they're not available and won't be accepted even if they were." Whatever the point of this is, it's irrelevant to the issue discussed. Modern multi-speed mountain bikes are available all over the place, but they just aren't seen in India. By your arguments, they would be more comfortable and certainly more efficient. I don't see that at all. Again, misrepresentation abounds in your argument. Drivetrain and gears are not in the same league as simple handlebars in terms of ease of availability, cost, and manufacture. But that isn't what is found because a market doesn't exist. This has nothing to do with any of the arguments you've made, and connecting it to such just does not make sense whatsoever. You need to think the point you're trying to make, so that it will be understandable. Oh yeah, don't forget that they also require more maintenance as well. And the point with handlebars is...? From a mechanical operation viewpoint, the shape of the lever (how the fingers are meant to grasp it) and its movement about its pivot clearly indicates that the most efficient and easiest way to exert maximum leverage on it is by applying a force perpendicular to the lever. The Have you bothered to ride a modern road bike lately? Yes. Maximum leverage just isn't needed. So? That says nothing about the ease of operation, which is my point. If your brakes are set up properly, the amount of force required to brake from the hoods is minimal and modulation is a non-issue. Rubbish. The fact is that it requires more effort and more time getting used to operating the brake from the hood than it is from a mountain bar. This isn't in dispute: the fact that you're used to it doesn't say anything whatsoever to the relative ease with which you do it compared to mountain bars. Have you ridden a modern mountain bike lately? Heck, even my 20 year old road bike with centerpulls can be stopped just fine from the hoods. Again, the issue is relative ease and comfort. The fact that the hoods are padded is an indication only that people do grasp their handlebars at this position, allowing operation of the brake levers albeit with more effort than necessary and adapting to the poor ergonomic design of the road brake lever/dropbar arrangement (rather that having the design adapt to the human body). I think it's one of It takes hardly any force to brake from the hoods with modern brakes. Even my wife can do it with her petite hands. Again, by "hardly any force" you really mean "force which you've gotten used to". If you have any experience with mountain bars at all, you'll be better positioned to know that brake operation takes less effort. I'm not convinced that it's for "comfort in the long haul". I think "easier to have gotten used to" for these riders you mention is more accurate. Here's some evidence against your "comfort" concerns. I commuted on a snip Road bars allow you to keep your palms rotated inward. So do bar ends on mountain bars. Before my problems set in (which didn't occur until the mileage increased), I thought that the flat-bar road bike was such a great idea that I wanted to buy a new one. But now I have changed my mind. If I am going to put in some miles with the trailer, I want a drop bar for the best hand positions. This is your experience, and I never discounted the fact that there are many people who find dropbars more comfortable. My point is it isn't the ultimate solution handlebar for everyone, and in fact is not even near, even with long-distance riders. Of course, you will argue that you can get the same thing with a set of bar-ends. But this is simply not true. When you use bar-ends, your hands have to move to a position that is wider, thus keeping your arms out of the best alignment (the best alignment would be directly forward - the place where you put your flat-bar grips, no?). No. Where did you get this idea from? The best alignment is the one which is most comfortable. This also creates greater frontal area which messes up your aerodynamics. I ask you, since when has aerodynamics been a concern for people in third-world countries using utility bikes? Since when has aerodynamics been a concern for comfort of your hands? Since when has ergonomics been an issue to them as well? Since it has always implied comfort. Finally, since when could you move from a very upright position to a very low and aerodynamic position with a set of flat bars? Since when has aerodynamics been a concern for comfort of your hands? Without a set of aerobars attached to your flat bars, you simply cannot duplicate the full range of positions available with a set of drop bars. Irrelevant. Aerodynamics isn't the issue for comfort of your hands. My solution to my wrist and hand problems was to put the drop bars back onto the trailer-hauler. For short road rides while pulling the trailer in traffic, I usually grab the rigid mountain bike with slicks. For longer weekend trips pulling the trailer, I grab the old road bike (now with drop bars back in place). My newer road bike is reserved for long solo rides. Trips to the trail requires the full-suspension mountain bike, of course. And my '63 Schwinn Panther (the one most like the utility bikes you are fond of referring to) is reserved for slow cruises through the neighborhood or the occasional parade. It just isn't comfortable enough for anything else. Good for you. That's your experience. It's far from being universal. If you read it carefully, I suggested that the pro-dropbars argument stemmed from an attitude borne out of a perception that road bikes are superior to mountain bikes. Nowhere did I extend the argument to types of bikes. This has absolutely nothing to do with the "superiority" of either type of bike. As I've implied. You can do with reading the post again more carefully, too. For long rides where the body position is not likely to change for long periods of time, it's hard to beat a drop bar. For off-road rides where moving around on the bike and changing positions often is the norm, flat bars rule. Ah, so you can move around with a mountain bar if you're off-road, but not if you go on road? You might need to re-think that statement. Please don't bother using the third-world as an example any longer. Their wants and needs are quite different from ours. And the bikes available to them are quite different as well. If you want to make comparisons, then talk about the uses of bikes within the modern world where all varieties of bikes are available. Please don't take on a patronising attitude towards "third-world" countries. Their need for comfort is exactly the same as "ours". The availability of differently shaped handlebars is just as easy as it is "here" in the "modern" world. Handlebars are not the same as gears or other drivetrain components. Types of bikes are not the same as type of handlebars. Recumbents and handlebars aren't valid comparisons. Your use of the terms "third world countries", "modern world", and "us" versus "them" shows quite clearly how little you know about the places I mentioned, the lack of any idea of the situations in those countries, and the ethnocentricity with which you view those countries. Please refrain from making arguments about places and situations which you have no experience in nor knowledge of. An encounter with one student from India does not contribute to anything near awareness of India's issues, let alone "third-world" countries. By the way, many European countries also have workers utilising bicycles as cargo and people haulers. What made you confine your focus to the "third world"? But don't give us any crap about market share - the mountain bike with knobbies has been dominating the market for years despite better choices being available for the intended uses. Markets tend to go for what is "in" or "cool," not what is best for the use. This is quite hilarious. You're the one who brought up the crap on market share. It's your crap. You raised that crap. Please don't attribute your crap to me. It's impolite and does not add to your credibility. |
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