Economics of Custom Frame Building in non Ferrous Materials

"Ryan Cousineau" wrote in message
...


What I like best about my steel Pinarello (besides the price and the
pretty chromed chainstay) is that finishing well in my crit races
(personal-best of 5th place last time, woo hoo) makes the riders behind
me on lighter, newer bikes feel even worse. I have a friggin' Sora
brifteur on the thing for heaven's sake, not to mention a bell!

Nobody likes it when I use the bell in a race,


I guess I'm nobody, cause I love it when a bell shows up in an intense
situation. I would also not feel any worse because someone with a steel
frame was faster than me. I have an 18 lb bike, a 20 lb bike and a 22 lb
steel bike. I don't gain or lose performance on any of the bikes. The
difference in performance between those bikes is much less perceptable than
the difference in the natural day to day variability of my
strength/speed/etc... Can you feel when one of your water bottles is full
compared to empty?

"Werehatrack" wrote in message
...
On 24 Aug 2003 14:17:29 -0700, (Donald Gillies) And
carbon is just so completely different that some frame builders
may not want to get into it. You would just have to ask them, I
guess.

If you want "custom" carbon, you have a couple of choices, Calfee and
Parlee. Calfee has been in business longer, but I understand Parlee frames
are very nice. I also understand its possible to get a custom Colnago, but
that will probably take alot more time and $$$.

In article ,
"one of the six billion" wrote:

"Ryan Cousineau" wrote in message
...


What I like best about my steel Pinarello (besides the price and the
pretty chromed chainstay) is that finishing well in my crit races
(personal-best of 5th place last time, woo hoo) makes the riders behind
me on lighter, newer bikes feel even worse. I have a friggin' Sora
brifteur on the thing for heaven's sake, not to mention a bell!

Nobody likes it when I use the bell in a race,

I guess I'm nobody, cause I love it when a bell shows up in an intense
situation. I would also not feel any worse because someone with a steel
frame was faster than me. I have an 18 lb bike, a 20 lb bike and a 22 lb
steel bike. I don't gain or lose performance on any of the bikes. The
difference in performance between those bikes is much less perceptable than
the difference in the natural day to day variability of my
strength/speed/etc... Can you feel when one of your water bottles is full
compared to empty?

Probably not, but it's a close-run thing to keep up on the climb some
races.

Rigged and ready to run (bell, but no water bottles), the Pinarello is
22 pounds according to my bathroom scale.

I don't ride another road bike to compare this one to, but it doesn't
feel heavy when I'm racing. Then again, the triathlete beside me at the
finish last time noted that his new (non-aero crit-style) wheels felt
"more responsive" than his usual (presumably aero) wheels. I don't know.
Maybe he was sensitive enough to notice.

I like the Pinarello because it represents my whole approach to racing,
which is to focus on the things that make me faster. I'm sitting beside
guys with sweet $3000 bicycles, in full Euro-team replica kit. That's
cool for them, because I'm sure they enjoy the aesthetics and it
probably does help them get up for the racing.

Meanwhile, I have my wacky pastiche-bike with a carbon fibre Trek fork
(it was cheap, and the stock fork was rusting) and a single Sora 8v
shifter setup (because right-side STI does make a difference in crit
racing), and my kit consists of black shorts and either my plain red
jersey or my plain beige jersey. I like the DIY style of it all, (which
is to say, my bike budget is low), and I've been careful to be cheap
where cheap doesn't make me slower ($30 Bell Paradox helmet instead of a
sweet Giro Pneumo in Italia tri-colour). I sit in to punish the
over-eager triathletes, and I let my legs and my cornering skills do the
talking (mostly they say, "this hurts!")

The real point is that I could probably force a pound off of this bike
with really judicious component replacement, but it was a lot easier to
just lose 10 pounds off me this Summer, and there's another 10 that I
have my eye on.

I salute your delight in the absurd under intense situations! For you, I
will be sure to ring the bell during Tuesday's race, the last of the
season.

--
Ryan Cousineau, http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

Ryan Cousineau wrote:

The other tale oft told is that steel frames are repairable, aluminum
ones are not. Discounting the fact that the cost of repairing a frame
makes this folly on all but the most costly or sentimental frames,
aluminum can now be properly repaired and treated too:
http://pyrobike.com/

That depends on the repair. Replacing main tubes is probably
uneconomical, but I bet many repairs are smaller things like
bent dropouts. There steel has an advantage. And
repair-by-replacing an entire frame is a PITA even if the frame
is free. I wouldn't necessarily choose a material for these reasons
though. BTW, heaven help us all if Campagmano decide to change
the rear spacing again.

Nobody likes it when I use the bell in a race,

Race cyclocross. You can get away with that kind of **** in
cyclocross, people even appreciate it, or at least the spectators do.

To the OP: Nonferrous materials can involve larger capital
costs, like welding equipment and heat treatment for aluminum,
bladder molding and tons of engineering for carbon, etc.
There are smaller builders who build in aluminum and titanium,
but not as many. BTW, 30 years ago my guess is that the US
was only partway into its framebuilding renaissance; the UK
was probably different.

ryan- What's that? The extra weight of lugged construction? BRBR

Why don't you read the post. Didn't mention 'lugs', you did. BTW, I have a 3.6
pound lugged steel frameset. Weigh a stadard aluminum frameset lately?? How
about the low end Seven ti??

Ryan The lack of
natural corrosion resistance? BRBR

Here we go-aluminum corrodes quite well and I have an 18 year old Ciocc w/o any
corrosion on it or in it.


ryan The general inability to build a frame as
light as other materials? BRBR

Horse****. My steel builder builds steel in the 3.2 to 3.5 pound range all the
time, just like most aluminum and mid range ti. If ya want a light frameset,
sure you can get one, for a lot more $$($2900 for a Calfee Dragonfly), or in
Ti-check out the prices of the 1 kilo ti Litespeed framesets or perhaps an
aluminum/scamdium 1 kilo framesets that are $2500 and may last one season...

COMBINATION of things that make a good frameset.

Discounting the fact that the cost of repairing a frame
makes this folly on all but the most costly or sentimental frames,
aluminum can now be properly repaired and treated too:

http://pyrobike.com/ BRBR

Folly is right. You need to read some info about how these are 'repaired' and
how reliable the repair is.

Ryan If you really like lugs, then steel is real, but I
am not so sentimental. BRBR

There you go again...never mentioned lugs...



Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

bjw- BTW, heaven help us all if Campagmano decide to change
the rear spacing again. BRBR

Campagnolo wasn't responsible for the first 8s 130mm rear hubs...

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

In article ,
(Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote:

ryan- What's that? The extra weight of lugged construction? BRBR

Why don't you read the post. Didn't mention 'lugs', you did. BTW, I have a
3.6
pound lugged steel frameset. Weigh a stadard aluminum frameset lately?? How
about the low end Seven ti??

I realize that steel frames can be made without lugs, but I was positing
lugs as a potential "benefit" of steel.

Ryan The lack of
natural corrosion resistance? BRBR

Here we go-aluminum corrodes quite well and I have an 18 year old Ciocc w/o
any corrosion on it or in it.

I don't think most frames succumb to corrosion, but when I hear people
extol the virtues of steel, they generally refrain from mentioning its
vices, however minor.

ryan The general inability to build a frame as
light as other materials? BRBR

Horse****. My steel builder builds steel in the 3.2 to 3.5 pound range all
the
time, just like most aluminum and mid range ti. If ya want a light frameset,
sure you can get one, for a lot more $$($2900 for a Calfee Dragonfly), or in
Ti-check out the prices of the 1 kilo ti Litespeed framesets or perhaps an
aluminum/scamdium 1 kilo framesets that are $2500 and may last one season...

Well, I daresay a 3.2-3.5 lb. steel frame sounds pretty deep into the
stupid-light zone for that material. Meanwhile, a Ti frame (or Al, or
carbon fibre) at that same weight is arguably overbuilt, and not too
expensive:

http://www.habcycles.com/road.html

3.0-3.7 lbs. in sizes from 50-64 cm. $695.

(I'm not particularly picking Mark's bikes for any reason other than the
nice chart with all the weights right there; I suspect his bikes are on
the cheap and heavy side of Ti frames, not that there's anything wrong
with that.)

COMBINATION of things that make a good frameset.

Discounting the fact that the cost of repairing a frame
makes this folly on all but the most costly or sentimental frames,
aluminum can now be properly repaired and treated too:

http://pyrobike.com/ BRBR

Folly is right. You need to read some info about how these are 'repaired' and
how reliable the repair is.

Well, that particular company comes from an aviation repair background,
and tests for alloy type and heat-treats their work afterwards. I'm not
sure what the folly is, given that post-weld heat treatment is the one
thing that most welding shops can't do to an Al frame.

Ryan If you really like lugs, then steel is real, but I
am not so sentimental. BRBR

There you go again...never mentioned lugs...

Sure. And welded steel frames (heck, even lugged steel frames) are very
good. As I mentioned, I have two steel bikes: a welded Kona hardtail,
and a lugged Pinarello. I race both at a low level (beer league/Cat 5),
and the magnetic nature of the frames is not what holds me back from
greater glory .

As I mentioned either here or in another thread, I think steel frames
are an especially good bargain on the used market because their cachet
(collectibles excepted) has sunk faster than their functionality.

But in the new frame or bike market, I don't see a lot of market
territory that steel frames have covered well. On the simple two axes of
price and weight, there are light steel frames that cost more than
non-Fe frames of the same weight, and there are heavy steel frames that
weigh more than non-Fe frames of the same cost. At the extreme ends of
the market, there are (as you mention above) stupidlight frames that get
into the 1 kg range, and a Trek OCLV (a bike I have never heard
described as fragile or underbuilt) frame weighs about 2.3-2.4 lbs, a
weight no steel frame is likely to approach at any price, and OCLV
frames are not outrageously expensive by the rarefied standards of
high-end frame pricing.

As for reliability, a frame in any common material should have a service
life longer than any component attached to the frame. 20 years of
regular riding, at the bare minimum. I would just expect that of any
normal bike, and have no reason to doubt that in any material, an
unforced road-frame failure sooner than that would indicate a failure in
design or manufacture. There are specific stupid-light frames (in steel
and aluminum, though demand for the former is minimal now) designed
outside these parameters, but they come with weight limits and bogus
warranties to go along with their astonishing lightness, and the
non-sponsored rider should be forewarned.

Only in the realm of the cheapest road bikes does steel usually have a
cost advantage over the next-cheapest material, which is usually
aluminum.

This is quibbling over trifles: what I was trying to say was not that
steel frames were a waste of money. At worst, they are a small waste of
money, and at best they have some specific attributes that make them
interesting. One of those (I hesitate to bring it up) is that some
lugged steel bikes are very pretty. Another is that if you are in dire
straits and absolutely have to bend your frame into another shape (say,
because it got bent into the wrong shape, or you need to cold-set your
rear triangle to a new spread), then steel is real (and if you have to
heat-treat it, steel will anneal .

But most riders will probably find a better value off-the-rack in Al
frames than Fe frames. And as long as Habanero keeps selling custom Ti
for $995, it will be hard for custom steel builders to match the price,
much less the weight.

That said, a local steel builder may simply offer a better, prettier
frame with better service and faster turnaround. They may even be able
to beat the price (though rarely the weight) of most other custom
makers. This is partly because steel lends itself to easy manufacture
with relatively inexpensive equipment, and partly because there are a
lot of people able to custom-make steel frames, leading to a buyer's
market.

So I'm curious: although you rebutted some of my knocks against steel,
what do you see as the advantages of steel that make it preferable to
other materials (which is to say, mainly to aluminum). Would you make
your arguments only when referring to custom builds, or would you say
that even in the off-the-rack market steel is generally preferable to
other materials?

Sheesh, it seems like I've been picking on you a lot this week. Maybe
it's time to go for a ride.
--
Ryan Cousineau, http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

ryan- I realize that steel frames can be made without lugs, but I was
positing
lugs as a potential "benefit" of steel. BRBR

Then you need to be clearer, instead of posting, " ryan- What's that? The
extra weight of lugged construction? BRBR

ryan I don't think most frames succumb to corrosion, but when I hear people
extol the virtues of steel, they generally refrain from mentioning its
vices, however minor. BRBR

As do those that fail to mention the problems with other materials....like
repairability of carbon, or the soft ride of ti or the lack of durability of
aluminum.

ALL materials have goods and others, steel is the best COMBINATION, IMO.

Well, I daresay a 3.2-3.5 lb. steel frame sounds pretty deep into the
stupid-light zone for that material. BRBR

Daresay all you want, my 3.6 pound steel frameset hauls my .1 offa ton around
w/o problem. 3.5 pound tig welded steel isn't anywhere close to stoopid light.


Ryan- Meanwhile, a Ti frame (or Al, or
carbon fibre) at that same weight is arguably overbuilt, and not too
expensive: BRBR


http://www.habcycles.com/road.html

3.0-3.7 lbs. in sizes from 50-64 cm. $695. BRBR


Is there in expensive Ti, carbon, aluminum and steel? you bet. A Torelli Corsa
Strada is $650 and weighs 3.6 pounds.

Ryan Well, that particular company comes from an aviation repair background,
and tests for alloy type and heat-treats their work afterwards. I'm not
sure what the folly is, BRBR


The folly is that a lot of aluminum frame makers say the repair is not
reliable...see BRAIN.

To equate aluminum aircraft skin repair to bicycles is also folly.

Ryan- But in the new frame or bike market, I don't see a lot of market
territory that steel frames have covered well. On the simple two axes of
price and weight, there are light steel frames that cost more than
non-Fe frames of the same weight, and there are heavy steel frames that
weigh more than non-Fe frames of the same cost. BRBR

This market is awash with aluminum because it is CHEAP...

Ryan Only in the realm of the cheapest road bikes does steel usually have a
cost advantage over the next-cheapest material, which is usually aluminum.


garbage-MANY spend $$ here for a custom steel frasmeset by Mark Nobilette, many
more than who would even consider paying the same amount for a custom aluminum.

Ryan But most riders will probably find a better value off-the-rack in Al
frames than Fe frames. And as long as Habanero keeps selling custom Ti
for $995, it will be hard for custom steel builders to match the price,
much less the weight. BRBR

You have a reall tendency to generalize and for the most part are only
partially correct in only a few markets.

Ryan So I'm curious: although you rebutted some of my knocks against steel,
what do you see as the advantages of steel that make it preferable to
other materials (which is to say, mainly to aluminum). BRBR

Best combination of those things you are looking for in a frameset-stiffness,
comfort, looks, price, weight, repairability, longevity.

Not the best in each catagory, wehich you seem to thing I am saying, but best
combination.


Ryan Sheesh, it seems like I've been picking on you a lot this week. Maybe
it's time to go for a ride. BRBR

My skin is a lot thicker than that. I have been slammed by the likes of Jobst,
after-all...

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

In article ,
(Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote:

ryan- I realize that steel frames can be made without lugs, but I was
positing
lugs as a potential "benefit" of steel. BRBR

Then you need to be clearer, instead of posting, " ryan- What's that?
The
extra weight of lugged construction? BRBR

ryan I don't think most frames succumb to corrosion, but when I hear people
extol the virtues of steel, they generally refrain from mentioning its
vices, however minor. BRBR

As do those that fail to mention the problems with other materials....like
repairability of carbon, or the soft ride of ti or the lack of durability of
aluminum.

Ryan Sheesh, it seems like I've been picking on you a lot this week. Maybe
it's time to go for a ride. BRBR

My skin is a lot thicker than that. I have been slammed by the likes of
Jobst,
after-all...

Probably because you attribute ride characteristics to Ti frames.

BTW, carbon fibre is easy to repair. Nobody likes to think about it, but
carbon fibre is fibreglass boat technology with a lighter-weight
matting. I believe the major reason nobody considers repairing carbon
fibre is because Trek's frame warranty is so good. Don't know if the
same goes for Calfee, et al.

--
Ryan Cousineau, http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

snip
BTW, carbon fibre is easy to repair. Nobody likes to think about it, but
carbon fibre is fibreglass boat technology with a lighter-weight
matting. I believe the major reason nobody considers repairing carbon
fibre is because Trek's frame warranty is so good. Don't know if the
same goes for Calfee, et al.
snip

Have you ever worked with composites? Do you have experience building
or repairing composite structures? I think not or you wouldn't spout
such inane nonsense.

First, there would be the grinding. You couldn't just take the
damaged area out and fill like bondo as the fibers have to be
continuous for some distance to provide the strength that the tube
originally had. Discontinuity of fibers, unless engineered for, is
bad in composites. It would have to be calculated what strength was
lost and thereby, how much material needs to be re-applied and how
(fiber orientation(s), etc..) . Then, the whole deal would need to be
vacuum bagged or otherwise compressed to squeeze out the air. Then,
the now repaired but butt-ugly frame would need to sanded (be careful
not to remove any fiber or strength will be lost) and refinished.

If a lug were damaged then things would get really interesting.

I would suggest that the current cost to Trek for a 5500 frame (not
including tooling and R+D costs) is less than $100. At $50 an hour
for skilled composite work (less than boat repair rate), unless you
have a tiny ding, it just ain't worth it.

App

Who worked for a major racing dinghy manufacturer for four years and
repaired composite sailboats for another three.