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Where "Safety Inflation" leads



 
 
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  #151  
Old October 18th 19, 11:08 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Zen Cycle
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Posts: 194
Default Where "Safety Inflation" leads

On Monday, October 14, 2019 at 2:03:43 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:


All I can tell you john, is that avoiding low branches and bushes is a daily occurrence on my rides. Like frank, just because it isn't your experience doesn't mean it's no one's experience.


So, please tell us more about your experience! I've been talking about
riding on normal public roads and (rarely) on normally designed paved
multi-use paths.


There are no bike paths on my commute. I ride exclusively on public roadways.

Where are you riding that you daily have to duck under branches that
would hit your head?


The vast majority of my morning commute is on RTE 125 in northeastern Massachusetts. As I noted elswhere, my morning commute is 20 miles, and I encounter 24 stoplights.

And are you riding a normal height bicycle?


yes, frank, I ride a standard roadbike, 55cm C-C

Do you
have photos?


I can get some, but I'm simply incredulous that you are seriously doubting my experience, as well as every one else here. We aren't arguing with you simply to argue ala jute. The roadside foliage around here simply isn't trimmed to the highway safety standards you are quoting. Most of the towns have budgetary considerations, and they are not going to perform that maintenance unless there is a hazard to motor vehicles. Bikes - most towns could simply not care less about. Outside of Cambridge, most towns have only started painting bikes lanes in the past few years, and that's still a rare occurrence. Seriously frank, Why do you refuse to accept my experience?
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  #152  
Old October 18th 19, 11:41 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Zen Cycle
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Posts: 194
Default Where "Safety Inflation" leads

On Monday, October 14, 2019 at 10:43:00 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:


I wouldn't argue that where you go there are overhanging limbs and
bushes. Mostly I'm arguing that New England roads did not evolve from
cow paths and logging roads, although I will admit that saying so does
add a bit of color to one's otherwise rather drab tales.


I'm not suggesting they _all_ did. There are many paved public roads in this area that saw their genesis as a result of the clearcutting and transition to farmland. As the farms have been sold off to developers of the last several decades, these roads have been paved and neighborhoods built. Take for example one road I regualrly commute on - West street in Wilmington.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/We...8!4d-71.139541

I work in wilmington, and a couple of my older co-workers remember that whole street as part of a large farm. West street used to dead-end before Woburn street. That chicane on the southern end was a priavate farm road, and only since the 1970's was cleared and extended to intersect with woburn street. I asked about it because that chicane is so tight they have a posted 20 MPH speed limit, and there isn't enough clearance on the shoulder to ride on the right side of the white line.

Look at this strava segment*:

https://www.strava.com/segments/18422295

you'll see the winding, twisting route with a profile of many short steep climbs. This was all land that was once clear cut, then farmed. These were logging roads, then farm roads. These kinds of roads end up like because they avoid the larger swamp areas that would have made them largely unpassable in wet seasons. Again, there are a couple of curves on this concatenation with posted 20 mph speed limits.

If these roads were built for the purpose of a-b transportation of humans, they would have looked a lot more like railroads - straightened, flattened, clear sightlines. No, these were logging and farming roads that eveolved over time.

That KOM?, yeah, that's me

  #153  
Old October 18th 19, 01:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Zen Cycle
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Posts: 194
Default Where "Safety Inflation" leads

On Monday, October 14, 2019 at 10:43:00 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:


I wouldn't argue that where you go there are overhanging limbs and
bushes. Mostly I'm arguing that New England roads did not evolve from
cow paths and logging roads, although I will admit that saying so does
add a bit of color to one's otherwise rather drab tales.


I'm not suggesting they _all_ did. There are many paved public roads in this area that saw their genesis as a result of the clearcutting and transition to farmland. As the farms have been sold off to developers of the last several decades, these roads have been paved and neighborhoods built. Take for example one road I regularly commute on - West street in Wilmington.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/We...8!4d-71.139541

I work in wilmington, and a couple of my older co-workers remember that whole street as part of a large farm. West street used to dead-end before Woburn street. That chicane on the southern end was a private farm road, and only since the 1960's was cleared and extended to intersect with woburn street. I asked them about it because that chicane is so tight they have a posted 20 MPH speed limit, and there isn't enough clearance on the shoulder to ride on the right side of the white line. The foliage along the sides encroaches so my I have no choice but to ride in the lane of traffic. Fortunately, with a 20 MPH speed limit I don't have a problem staying ahead of the cars in that section.

Look at this strava segment:

https://www.strava.com/segments/18422295

you'll see the winding, twisting route with a profile of many short steep climbs. This was all land that was once clear cut, then farmed. These were logging roads, then farm roads. These kinds of roads end up like this because they avoid the larger swamp areas that would have made them largely unpassable in wet seasons. Again, there are a couple of curves on this concatenation with posted 20 mph speed limits.

If these roads were built for the purpose of a-b transportation of humans, they would have looked a lot more like railroads - straightened, flattened, clear sightlines. No, these were logging and farming roads that evolved over time.
  #154  
Old October 18th 19, 04:18 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 1,231
Default Where "Safety Inflation" leads

On Friday, October 18, 2019 at 3:08:36 AM UTC-7, Zen Cycle wrote:
On Monday, October 14, 2019 at 2:03:43 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:


All I can tell you john, is that avoiding low branches and bushes is a daily occurrence on my rides. Like frank, just because it isn't your experience doesn't mean it's no one's experience.


So, please tell us more about your experience! I've been talking about
riding on normal public roads and (rarely) on normally designed paved
multi-use paths.


There are no bike paths on my commute. I ride exclusively on public roadways.

Where are you riding that you daily have to duck under branches that
would hit your head?


The vast majority of my morning commute is on RTE 125 in northeastern Massachusetts. As I noted elswhere, my morning commute is 20 miles, and I encounter 24 stoplights.

And are you riding a normal height bicycle?


yes, frank, I ride a standard roadbike, 55cm C-C

Do you
have photos?


I can get some, but I'm simply incredulous that you are seriously doubting my experience, as well as every one else here. We aren't arguing with you simply to argue ala jute. The roadside foliage around here simply isn't trimmed to the highway safety standards you are quoting. Most of the towns have budgetary considerations, and they are not going to perform that maintenance unless there is a hazard to motor vehicles. Bikes - most towns could simply not care less about. Outside of Cambridge, most towns have only started painting bikes lanes in the past few years, and that's still a rare occurrence. Seriously frank, Why do you refuse to accept my experience?


55 cm huh - I see you're 8" taller than Kragowski.
  #155  
Old October 18th 19, 04:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Where "Safety Inflation" leads

On 10/18/2019 6:08 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
On Monday, October 14, 2019 at 2:03:43 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:


All I can tell you john, is that avoiding low branches and bushes is a daily occurrence on my rides. Like frank, just because it isn't your experience doesn't mean it's no one's experience.


So, please tell us more about your experience! I've been talking about
riding on normal public roads and (rarely) on normally designed paved
multi-use paths.


There are no bike paths on my commute. I ride exclusively on public roadways.

Where are you riding that you daily have to duck under branches that
would hit your head?


The vast majority of my morning commute is on RTE 125 in northeastern Massachusetts. As I noted elswhere, my morning commute is 20 miles, and I encounter 24 stoplights.

And are you riding a normal height bicycle?


yes, frank, I ride a standard roadbike, 55cm C-C

Do you
have photos?


I can get some, but I'm simply incredulous that you are seriously doubting my experience, as well as every one else here.


It's not true that "everyone else here" is claiming they're in danger of
conking their head on tree branches while riding roads. Scharf made the
initial claim a couple years ago, when he was arguing that StVZO
headlights were dangerous - that (blinding) headlights with no cutoff
were necessary to prevent head injuries. Tom decided to agree with
Scharf just a few days ago, claiming he hit his head hard on a tree
branch in daylight, and on a street with no such branches visible in
March or April of this year.

The others have alluded to odd situations like riding paths in woods -
but I've been talking about roads. Jay linked to a Streetview of an
alley-like 10 foot wide lane in a dead-end neighborhood with just one
suspect tree.

We aren't arguing with you simply to argue ala jute. The roadside foliage around here simply isn't trimmed to the highway safety standards you are quoting.


Then, seriously, what _does_ happen when a USPS truck drives down it?
Those go everywhere and are taller than normal cyclists.

Most of the towns have budgetary considerations, and they are not going to perform that maintenance unless there is a hazard to motor vehicles.


I can accept that. But again, any branch over a road that's a hazard to
a normal bicyclist is also a hazard to a motor vehicle.

Outside of Cambridge, most towns have only started painting bikes lanes in the past few years, and that's still a rare occurrence.


Bike lanes are not an issue here unless they are done so badly that they
endanger riders with low branches. That must be very rare, and why
wouldn't riders either complain or fix it with a hand saw?

Almost all bike lanes are done by striping or otherwise segregating a
portion of the pre-existing pavement. That pavement essentially always
has clearance for vehicles taller than bikes, since garbage trucks,
delivery vans, tall pickups, various trailers etc. are all commonly more
than six feet high.

Seriously frank, Why do you refuse to accept my experience?


For the reasons stated above, Zen. I've biked in Massachusetts (although
western Mass.) and in New Hampshire, as well as thousands of other
places. It's simply not normal to have branches that low over a roadway.
I also spent some time on Streetview looking at your Route 125. I didn't
follow the entire route, but I saw no evidence that it's different than
all other roads in this regard.

If these head-hitting hazards are so common on your route, why not link
Streetview images of several of them?

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #156  
Old October 19th 19, 02:03 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Where "Safety Inflation" leads

On Fri, 18 Oct 2019 03:41:40 -0700 (PDT), Zen Cycle
wrote:

On Monday, October 14, 2019 at 10:43:00 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:


I wouldn't argue that where you go there are overhanging limbs and
bushes. Mostly I'm arguing that New England roads did not evolve from
cow paths and logging roads, although I will admit that saying so does
add a bit of color to one's otherwise rather drab tales.


I'm not suggesting they _all_ did. There are many paved public roads in this area that saw their genesis as a result of the clearcutting and transition to farmland. As the farms have been sold off to developers of the last several decades, these roads have been paved and neighborhoods built. Take for example one road I regualrly commute on - West street in Wilmington.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/We...8!4d-71.139541

I work in wilmington, and a couple of my older co-workers remember that whole street as part of a large farm. West street used to dead-end before Woburn street. That chicane on the southern end was a priavate farm road, and only since the 1970's was cleared and extended to intersect with woburn street. I asked about it because that chicane is so tight they have a posted 20 MPH speed limit, and there isn't enough clearance on the shoulder to ride on the right side of the white line.

Look at this strava segment*:

https://www.strava.com/segments/18422295

you'll see the winding, twisting route with a profile of many short steep climbs. This was all land that was once clear cut, then farmed. These were logging roads, then farm roads. These kinds of roads end up like because they avoid the larger swamp areas that would have made them largely unpassable in wet seasons. Again, there are a couple of curves on this concatenation with posted 20 mph speed limits.

If these roads were built for the purpose of a-b transportation of humans, they would have looked a lot more like railroads - straightened, flattened, clear sightlines. No, these were logging and farming roads that eveolved over time.

Really? Right straight up the hill, no curves, clear sight lines? And
you are going to drive a team of horses hauling a loaded wagon up that
road? No place to stop and let the team rest a bit, get their breath
back? Just a straight haul?

And what about going down the hill? Get the team galloping and Wheeee
? And in the winter time? When it is all ice and slippery? Straight
down the hill?

My grand dad used to tell a story about that. Fellow hauling a load of
logs down the hill in the winter on a sled. Straight road, the sled
started catching up with the team and it is all he can do to keep them
on the straight and narrow. Somehow the fly buttons on his pants gave
way and he didn't dare to let go of the reins, cold as all get out and
the wind from all that speed.... the poor fellow got frost bite :-)

No siree, them hills gotta have curves.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #157  
Old October 19th 19, 02:12 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Where "Safety Inflation" leads

On Fri, 18 Oct 2019 05:48:53 -0700 (PDT), Zen Cycle
wrote:

On Monday, October 14, 2019 at 10:43:00 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:


I wouldn't argue that where you go there are overhanging limbs and
bushes. Mostly I'm arguing that New England roads did not evolve from
cow paths and logging roads, although I will admit that saying so does
add a bit of color to one's otherwise rather drab tales.


I'm not suggesting they _all_ did. There are many paved public roads in this area that saw their genesis as a result of the clearcutting and transition to farmland. As the farms have been sold off to developers of the last several decades, these roads have been paved and neighborhoods built. Take for example one road I regularly commute on - West street in Wilmington.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/We...8!4d-71.139541

I work in wilmington, and a couple of my older co-workers remember that whole street as part of a large farm. West street used to dead-end before Woburn street. That chicane on the southern end was a private farm road, and only since the 1960's was cleared and extended to intersect with woburn street. I asked them about it because that chicane is so tight they have a posted 20 MPH speed limit, and there isn't enough clearance on the shoulder to ride on the right side of the white line. The foliage along the sides encroaches so my I have no choice but to ride in the lane of traffic. Fortunately, with a 20 MPH speed limit I don't have a problem staying ahead of the cars in that section.

Look at this strava segment:

https://www.strava.com/segments/18422295

you'll see the winding, twisting route with a profile of many short steep climbs. This was all land that was once clear cut, then farmed. These were logging roads, then farm roads. These kinds of roads end up like this because they avoid the larger swamp areas that would have made them largely unpassable in wet seasons. Again, there are a couple of curves on this concatenation with posted 20 mph speed limits.

I think you've posted this message twice but, what the heck, I'll
answer it twice.

My experience with farm roads is that they tend to be along property
lines. Nobody is going to stand for a road right through the South
Hayfield just because some logger hauled logs that a way. Sort of like
the street coming right through your living room 'cause that's the way
the logging road went?

Believe it or not, them 'old folks' that used to live 'round here
weren't all that stupid.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #158  
Old October 19th 19, 04:31 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default Where "Safety Inflation" leads

On 10/18/2019 3:08 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:

Do you
have photos?


I can get some, but I'm simply incredulous that you are seriously doubting my experience, as well as every one else here.


Don't be incredulous. This is S.O.P.. "If I don't experience something
then it's simply not possible that anyone else on the planet has
experienced it, they must be lying and until they provide
incontrovertible evidence I won't believe it and no one else should either.

We aren't arguing with you simply to argue ala jute. The roadside
foliage around here simply isn't trimmed to the highway safety standards
you are quoting. Most of the towns have budgetary considerations, and
they are not going to perform that maintenance unless there is a hazard
to motor vehicles. Bikes - most towns could simply not care less about.

In my town, if someone called about a hazard to cyclists, whether it's
low-hanging branches, bike lanes that need cleaning, etc., someone would
be sent out within a day. But there aren't crews driving around the city
looking for low-hanging branches. There is scheduled tree trimming of
city trees, but it's definitely possible for a hazard to develop prior
to the schedule for a particular street.

Outside of Cambridge, most towns have only started painting bikes lanes in the past few years, and that's still a rare occurrence. Seriously frank, Why do you refuse to accept my experience?


You can't possibly be telling the truth because where Frank lives no one
has the same experiences as you.

Personally I ceased to be amused by his ramblings years ago and simply
filtered him out on Usenet. Someone that argues simply to argue is not
contributing much to the level of debate.

  #159  
Old October 19th 19, 04:52 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default Where "Safety Inflation" leads

On Saturday, 19 October 2019 11:31:29 UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 10/18/2019 3:08 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:

Do you
have photos?


I can get some, but I'm simply incredulous that you are seriously doubting my experience, as well as every one else here.


Don't be incredulous. This is S.O.P.. "If I don't experience something
then it's simply not possible that anyone else on the planet has
experienced it, they must be lying and until they provide
incontrovertible evidence I won't believe it and no one else should either.

We aren't arguing with you simply to argue ala jute. The roadside
foliage around here simply isn't trimmed to the highway safety standards
you are quoting. Most of the towns have budgetary considerations, and
they are not going to perform that maintenance unless there is a hazard
to motor vehicles. Bikes - most towns could simply not care less about.

In my town, if someone called about a hazard to cyclists, whether it's
low-hanging branches, bike lanes that need cleaning, etc., someone would
be sent out within a day. But there aren't crews driving around the city
looking for low-hanging branches. There is scheduled tree trimming of
city trees, but it's definitely possible for a hazard to develop prior
to the schedule for a particular street.

Outside of Cambridge, most towns have only started painting bikes lanes in the past few years, and that's still a rare occurrence. Seriously frank, Why do you refuse to accept my experience?


You can't possibly be telling the truth because where Frank lives no one
has the same experiences as you.

Personally I ceased to be amused by his ramblings years ago and simply
filtered him out on Usenet. Someone that argues simply to argue is not
contributing much to the level of debate.


So says the RBT Resident Guerilla Marketer.

Cheers
  #160  
Old October 19th 19, 06:18 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Where "Safety Inflation" leads

On Saturday, October 19, 2019 at 8:52:56 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, 19 October 2019 11:31:29 UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 10/18/2019 3:08 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:

Do you
have photos?

I can get some, but I'm simply incredulous that you are seriously doubting my experience, as well as every one else here.


Don't be incredulous. This is S.O.P.. "If I don't experience something
then it's simply not possible that anyone else on the planet has
experienced it, they must be lying and until they provide
incontrovertible evidence I won't believe it and no one else should either.

We aren't arguing with you simply to argue ala jute. The roadside
foliage around here simply isn't trimmed to the highway safety standards
you are quoting. Most of the towns have budgetary considerations, and
they are not going to perform that maintenance unless there is a hazard
to motor vehicles. Bikes - most towns could simply not care less about.

In my town, if someone called about a hazard to cyclists, whether it's
low-hanging branches, bike lanes that need cleaning, etc., someone would
be sent out within a day. But there aren't crews driving around the city
looking for low-hanging branches. There is scheduled tree trimming of
city trees, but it's definitely possible for a hazard to develop prior
to the schedule for a particular street.

Outside of Cambridge, most towns have only started painting bikes lanes in the past few years, and that's still a rare occurrence. Seriously frank, Why do you refuse to accept my experience?


You can't possibly be telling the truth because where Frank lives no one
has the same experiences as you.

Personally I ceased to be amused by his ramblings years ago and simply
filtered him out on Usenet. Someone that argues simply to argue is not
contributing much to the level of debate.


So says the RBT Resident Guerilla Marketer.


This is not a marketing issue. We can argue over the need for a light to illuminate low hanging branches, but the fact that Frank doesn't encounter branches doesn't make that experience universal. I poke fun at Joerg, but his commuting experience is very different from mine -- as is yours and everyone elses'. I hit six branches coming home from work on Thursday night, but I was trying -- I was motivated by this thread. It was pouring rain and dark, so even without trying, I probably would have hit one -- maybe. This cedar, for example. https://tinyurl.com/yyzw2gxx There is a crazy fir, too -- and even an azalea on that road, although more effort is needed to hit that. You do end up dodging shrubs if you get squeezed by downhill traffic.

-- Jay Beattie.

 




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