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The death of rim brakes?



 
 
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  #51  
Old March 12th 19, 07:57 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 7,804
Default The death of rim brakes?

On 3/12/2019 11:07 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-10 06:34, wrote:
I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc
brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I
am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and
certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim
brakes a dead deal.


Disc brakes are simply better. Take a look around around automotive and
motorcycles. How many new cars and motorcycles are there that still have
drum brakes in front?

On Sunday I experienced the umpteenth reminder why rim brakes are
inferior. We had to cross some unpaved area on the road bikes and it had
rained. Muddy. Afterwards a descent on pavement, I reached in and after
the usual and expected one-second of zero brake action the rim brakes
came on. There was an awful grinding noise, you could literally hear
aluminum being eaten.


And yet, you survived. So did your rims.

I've heard that sound thousands of times. I've never had a crash or rim
failure as a result.


--
- Frank Krygowski
Ads
  #52  
Old March 13th 19, 12:21 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Mark J.
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Posts: 570
Default The death of rim brakes?

On 3/11/2019 12:30 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 10:36:06 AM UTC-7, Mark J. wrote:
On 3/10/2019 8:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Back when Jobst was with us, there was talk of sticking these on some
rims and doing tests, but I don't recall if anyone actually did that, or
what the results were.


Yes, there were tests, I was a test subject. It was in about 1984. I
can't remember for certain, but my guess is the test was sponsored by
Buycycling magazine. I got sent the stick-on temperature indicators.
They were rectangular and had multiple, labeled temp. "windows". When
you reached the indicated temp, the window went (permanently) dark. At
some point I'm sure you sent in results, but I really can't recall that
part.

I'll look in my shop to see if any of the rims (and stickers) are still
around, but I doubt it. In those days we were running 36 spoke rims and
25mm (mis-labeled 1-1/8) Specialized Turbos, and rear rims lasted mostly
a year or two, mostly dying of spoke-hole cracks, and sometimes of
pothole-induced flat spots. Oh to be young and greyhound thin again!



I don't think the selling point for discs is that they prevent your tires from exploding. There has never been a tire-exploding epidemic from over-heating. Like Frank, I blew one tire on a tandem front descending Rocky Point on a hot day. The wet version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NPqQptjbF0 My wife was on the back yelling at me to slow down, so I complied. This was on a tandem with cantis and no drum or disk brake -- and the rims did get very hot. Discs get super hot on tandems and thus the mega giant 203mm rotors. Tandems are a special case.


Yup. My one front-tire blowout was on a tandem loaded with baggage, but
it was caused by young-and-stupid, not by heat. I had let the front
tire go too far and worn a hole through the casing /on top of the
tread!/ I still can't figure out how I missed the warning signs - a
front tire worn that bad should be obvious, even on a tandem. To
compound the matter, we were going down a steep hill, but fortunately on
a wide straight road. I was able to keep it upright until we came to a
stop, and I had a spare (so maybe I /had/ noticed the warning signs!)

Brake fade is a problem with all brakes -- and discs probably get less fade than rim brakes, so heating matters, but the likelihood of blowing a tire off the rim due to over-heating on a road single is pretty remote and not why one would or should buy discs. That's not even something I hear from zealous sales people. The usual pitch is better modulation and stopping in wet weather.

Rim heating was an issue in the tubular days because it didn't take tire-popping heat to soften tubular cement.


Also for some clinchers back in the day when many clincher rims didn't
have a bead "hook" - I heard a report of first-hand experience with a
blowout on a descent on a bike with, um, large riders on it, around
1975. I don't know the rim, but he was using Schwinn LeTour tires,
which were pretty nice (Japanese made, maybe by Panasonic?) except that
they fit loosely as I recall. That's just before the revolution in
widely available high-quality clinchers. He told me the tire came clean
off the rim. Dunno what injuries, if any.

-Mark J.
  #53  
Old March 13th 19, 12:23 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Mark J.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 570
Default The death of rim brakes?

On 3/12/2019 11:57 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/12/2019 11:07 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-10 06:34, wrote:
I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc
brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I
am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and
certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim
brakes a dead deal.


Disc brakes are simply better. Take a look around around automotive
and motorcycles. How many new cars and motorcycles are there that
still have drum brakes in front?

On Sunday I experienced the umpteenth reminder why rim brakes are
inferior. We had to cross some unpaved area on the road bikes and it
had rained. Muddy. Afterwards a descent on pavement, I reached in and
after the usual and expected one-second of zero brake action the rim
brakes came on. There was an awful grinding noise, you could literally
hear aluminum being eaten.


And yet, you survived. So did your rims.

I've heard that sound thousands of times. I've never had a crash or rim
failure as a result.


Failure in one day, no, I haven't heard that either. Failure over a
shorter-than-you'd expect span of months, I've experienced that
personally as have others on this NG.

Mark J.

  #54  
Old March 13th 19, 02:01 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,804
Default The death of rim brakes?

On 3/12/2019 7:23 PM, Mark J. wrote:
On 3/12/2019 11:57 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/12/2019 11:07 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-10 06:34, wrote:
I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc
brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I
am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and
certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim
brakes a dead deal.


Disc brakes are simply better. Take a look around around automotive
and motorcycles. How many new cars and motorcycles are there that
still have drum brakes in front?

On Sunday I experienced the umpteenth reminder why rim brakes are
inferior. We had to cross some unpaved area on the road bikes and it
had rained. Muddy. Afterwards a descent on pavement, I reached in and
after the usual and expected one-second of zero brake action the rim
brakes came on. There was an awful grinding noise, you could
literally hear aluminum being eaten.


And yet, you survived. So did your rims.

I've heard that sound thousands of times. I've never had a crash or
rim failure as a result.


Failure in one day, no, I haven't heard that either.¬* Failure over a
shorter-than-you'd expect span of months, I've experienced that
personally as have others on this NG.


I've never had a rim fail by that mechanism at all. I'm not aware of any
of my riding friends suffering that failure.

Many, many years ago I was on a mountain bike ride where such a failure
happened to an out-of-town guy I didn't know; so I understand it's
possible. But I don't think it's at all common, at least around here.
And especially for road bikes.

Someone recently proposed that local soil content can make a difference.
I'm open to that possibility. In our area, soils typically have high
clay content, and I suppose that's not very abrasive stuff.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #55  
Old March 13th 19, 02:25 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 805
Default The death of rim brakes?

On Tue, 12 Mar 2019 21:01:49 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/12/2019 7:23 PM, Mark J. wrote:
On 3/12/2019 11:57 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/12/2019 11:07 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-10 06:34, wrote:
I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc
brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I
am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and
certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim
brakes a dead deal.


Disc brakes are simply better. Take a look around around automotive
and motorcycles. How many new cars and motorcycles are there that
still have drum brakes in front?

On Sunday I experienced the umpteenth reminder why rim brakes are
inferior. We had to cross some unpaved area on the road bikes and it
had rained. Muddy. Afterwards a descent on pavement, I reached in and
after the usual and expected one-second of zero brake action the rim
brakes came on. There was an awful grinding noise, you could
literally hear aluminum being eaten.

And yet, you survived. So did your rims.

I've heard that sound thousands of times. I've never had a crash or
rim failure as a result.


Failure in one day, no, I haven't heard that either.* Failure over a
shorter-than-you'd expect span of months, I've experienced that
personally as have others on this NG.


I've never had a rim fail by that mechanism at all. I'm not aware of any
of my riding friends suffering that failure.

Many, many years ago I was on a mountain bike ride where such a failure
happened to an out-of-town guy I didn't know; so I understand it's
possible. But I don't think it's at all common, at least around here.
And especially for road bikes.

Someone recently proposed that local soil content can make a difference.
I'm open to that possibility. In our area, soils typically have high
clay content, and I suppose that's not very abrasive stuff.


I think, at least from my own experience in slipping, that wet clay
may be a lubricant :-(

--
Cheers,
John B.


  #57  
Old March 13th 19, 02:36 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,017
Default The death of rim brakes?

On 13/3/19 12:25 pm, John B. Slocomb wrote:


I think, at least from my own experience in slipping, that wet clay
may be a lubricant :-(


It also washes off with water. I have been known to give my rims a
squirt of water to wash them and the brake pads and git rid of grit.

--
JS
  #58  
Old March 13th 19, 02:46 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,804
Default The death of rim brakes?

On 3/12/2019 9:01 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/12/2019 7:23 PM, Mark J. wrote:
On 3/12/2019 11:57 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/12/2019 11:07 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-10 06:34, wrote:
I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc
brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I
am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and
certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim
brakes a dead deal.


Disc brakes are simply better. Take a look around around automotive
and motorcycles. How many new cars and motorcycles are there that
still have drum brakes in front?

On Sunday I experienced the umpteenth reminder why rim brakes are
inferior. We had to cross some unpaved area on the road bikes and it
had rained. Muddy. Afterwards a descent on pavement, I reached in
and after the usual and expected one-second of zero brake action the
rim brakes came on. There was an awful grinding noise, you could
literally hear aluminum being eaten.

And yet, you survived. So did your rims.

I've heard that sound thousands of times. I've never had a crash or
rim failure as a result.


Failure in one day, no, I haven't heard that either.¬* Failure over a
shorter-than-you'd expect span of months, I've experienced that
personally as have others on this NG.


I've never had a rim fail by that mechanism at all. I'm not aware of any
of my riding friends suffering that failure.

Many, many years ago I was on a mountain bike ride where such a failure
happened to an out-of-town guy I didn't know; so I understand it's
possible. But I don't think it's at all common, at least around here.
And especially for road bikes.

Someone recently proposed that local soil content can make a difference.
I'm open to that possibility. In our area, soils typically have high
clay content, and I suppose that's not very abrasive stuff.


I guess we could do a poll. How many here have had a road bike rim fail
by having the brakes eat through it?


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #59  
Old March 13th 19, 02:56 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,879
Default The death of rim brakes?

On 3/12/2019 8:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/12/2019 9:01 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/12/2019 7:23 PM, Mark J. wrote:
On 3/12/2019 11:57 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/12/2019 11:07 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-10 06:34, wrote:
I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and
basically all disc
brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be
gone but maybe I
am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake
look and
certainly for a long time parts will be around but are
these rim
brakes a dead deal.


Disc brakes are simply better. Take a look around
around automotive and motorcycles. How many new cars
and motorcycles are there that still have drum brakes
in front?

On Sunday I experienced the umpteenth reminder why rim
brakes are inferior. We had to cross some unpaved area
on the road bikes and it had rained. Muddy. Afterwards
a descent on pavement, I reached in and after the usual
and expected one-second of zero brake action the rim
brakes came on. There was an awful grinding noise, you
could literally hear aluminum being eaten.

And yet, you survived. So did your rims.

I've heard that sound thousands of times. I've never had
a crash or rim failure as a result.

Failure in one day, no, I haven't heard that either.¬
Failure over a shorter-than-you'd expect span of months,
I've experienced that personally as have others on this NG.


I've never had a rim fail by that mechanism at all. I'm
not aware of any of my riding friends suffering that failure.

Many, many years ago I was on a mountain bike ride where
such a failure happened to an out-of-town guy I didn't
know; so I understand it's possible. But I don't think
it's at all common, at least around here. And especially
for road bikes.

Someone recently proposed that local soil content can make
a difference. I'm open to that possibility. In our area,
soils typically have high clay content, and I suppose
that's not very abrasive stuff.


I guess we could do a poll. How many here have had a road
bike rim fail by having the brakes eat through it?



I have not and I do not know.

That said, withing a particular area ( mine) the most
frequent worn-out-rim-sidewall riders:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...st/wornrim.jpg

seem to be daily commuter/errand riders on urban streets
with much less mileage than 'enthusiast' weekend riders.
This may well be more an effect of brake use/frequency/style
than abrasive material differences. That's an hypothesis. I
just don't know.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #60  
Old March 13th 19, 07:17 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,017
Default The death of rim brakes?

On 13/3/19 12:46 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:


I guess we could do a poll. How many here have had a road bike rim fail
by having the brakes eat through it?


Failed during use, never. I've thrown out a few rims that were well
worn, both MTB with canti brakes and road bike with regular caliper brakes.

--
JS

 




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