Need advice on bottom bracket repair

On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 22:24:30 -0000,
Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:
"AMuzi" wrote in message
news
On 1/14/2017 3:46 PM, Ted Heise wrote:

Now I'm tackling the fixed cup, using the large bolts and
wrenches as described by Sheldon. So far I haven't been able
to get it to budge, and before I spend too much time moosing
on it I want to double confirm it is reverse threaded. In
other words, I should be turning from the outside of the
shell and not from the inside.

Yes but don't suffer for it. R&E (or any competent shop which
commonly services bicycles) will have a right cup tool
(Campagnolo or other) which makes that job very quick.

Your cup has 36mm flats, yes? Much better purchase on those
than simple friction against the face. Secure your tool so it
doesn't slip and damage the cup, the finish or your fingers.

The cup might even be tool steel - it would take some effort to
damage it.

An aluminium frame I was cleaning to weigh in for scrap - I had
to hacksaw the BB housing and split it with a chisel to get the
cup out, the hacksaw caught the flange on the cup - the hacksaw
blade was completely dulled, the flange on the cup was barely
marked.

Duly noted, thanks.

--
Ted Heise Bloomington, IN, USA

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 06:33:45 +0700,
John B wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 16:46:53 -0500, Ted Heise
wrote:
On Mon, 9 Jan 2017, AMuzi wrote:

Just to clarify (I have spent a lot of time with Angel
Rodriguez and in his shop; your BB is BSC threaded) the chain
side (right side when riding) cup is reverse thread. The
non-drive side (clean side, adjustable side, left side)
unscrews like a jar lid.

Okay, after nearly a week of daily Blaster drips, I got
replacement pins last night. Today I was able to get the
adjustable cup out, a bit of back and forth helped.

Now I'm tackling the fixed cup, using the large bolts and
wrenches as described by Sheldon. So far I haven't been able
to get it to budge, and before I spend too much time moosing on
it I want to double confirm it is reverse threaded. In other
words, I should be turning from the outside of the shell and
not from the inside.

Thanks again to all for the great tips!

I've never been able to make Sheldon's scheme of a bolt, nut
and washers work as he described it. What I have had success
with was using a nut, bolt and washers to clamp the correct
size wrench in place so it didn't slip when loosening the fixed
cup. I've no idea of costs in the U.S. but here a cheap Chinese
wrench costs, maybe, a dollar, or even three :-)

Yes, as someone else mentioned (sorry, I've lost track of who to
acknowledge) the Sheldon scheme doesn't give as good purchase on
the fixed cup. I found that no matter how tight I got the
bolt-washer-nut assembly, it slipped on the fixed cup when trying
to turn the whole shebang with wrenches from both sides.

I've got the cheap Chinese tool, and will give it a go after I
pick up a larger washer to help secure it in place.

Thanks for the help!

--
Ted Heise Bloomington, IN, USA

On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 15:34:00 -0800 (PST),
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, January 14, 2017 at 4:49:30 PM UTC-5, Theodore Heise wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 08:58:29 -0800 (PST),
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, January 7, 2017 at 9:33:31 PM UTC-5, Theodore Heise wrote:

I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom
bracket in serious need of overhaul. [...both cups stuck...]

Have you had any luck getting that cup off or looser?

Yep, I got the adjustable cup out just now, and am working on
the fixed. I posted a few more details elsethread.

Check Sheldon's Tool Tips again because he tells you whether to
tighten the inside or the outside of the bolt-nut tool.For what
it's worth I found that it took a lot of presure to tighten the
nut/bolt to the point where it'd unscrew the cup and when it did
it was a very sudden movement of the cup.

Good luck and cheers

Thanks, as I just noted elsethread, I've not been able to get the
assembly tight enough to move the fixed cup.

--
Ted Heise Bloomington, IN, USA

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 13:54:26 +0000 (UTC),
Theodore Heise wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 16:13:13 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2017 3:46 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Mon, 9 Jan 2017, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/9/2017 4:26 PM, wrote:
On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 2:15:41 PM UTC-8, Theodore
Heise wrote:
On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 10:43:33 -0800 (PST),
wrote:
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 10:01:31 AM UTC-8,
Theodore Heise wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 11:08:20 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/7/2017 8:33 PM, Theodore Heise wrote:

I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear
bottom bracket in serious need of overhaul [both cups
stuck]

Just to clarify (I have spent a lot of time with Angel
Rodriguez and in his shop; your BB is BSC threaded) the chain
side (right side when riding) cup is reverse thread. The
non-drive side (clean side, adjustable side, left side)
unscrews like a jar lid.

Okay, after nearly a week of daily Blaster drips, I got
replacement pins last night. Today I was able to get the
adjustable cup out, a bit of back and forth helped.

Now I'm tackling the fixed cup, using the large bolts and
wrenches as described by Sheldon. So far I haven't been able
to get it to budge, and before I spend too much time moosing
on it I want to double confirm it is reverse threaded. In
other words, I should be turning from the outside of the shell
and not from the inside.

Yes but don't suffer for it. R&E (or any competent shop which
commonly services bicycles) will have a right cup tool
(Campagnolo or other) which makes that job very quick.

Your cup has 36mm flats, yes? Much better purchase on those
than simple friction against the face. Secure your tool so it
doesn't slip and damage the cup, the finish or your fingers.

Yes, my Park tool (HCW4) with fixed pins at one end is labeled 36
mm--I believe for the end with flats for the fixed cup end. It
fits the fixed cup.

I will stop by the hardware store later this morning (when it
opens) to get a larger washer so I can use the 5/8" bolt and nut
to keep the cup tool in place when wrenching with it.

If that doesn't work (which I expect), I will be taking the frame
in to my LBS (taking to heart your "don't suffer for it" advice).

Oh, and thank you for the help!


--
Ted Heise Bloomington, IN, USA

On 1/14/2017 5:33 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 16:46:53 -0500, Ted Heise
wrote:



On Mon, 9 Jan 2017, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/9/2017 4:26 PM, wrote:
On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 2:15:41 PM UTC-8, Theodore Heise wrote:
On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 10:43:33 -0800 (PST),
wrote:
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 10:01:31 AM UTC-8, Theodore Heise wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 11:08:20 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/7/2017 8:33 PM, Theodore Heise wrote:
Hi all,

I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom
bracket in serious need of overhaul [both cups stuck]

Delco 10.4020 penetrant is the best, PC Blaster is good.
Warming with a heat gun can help.

If no other path, flats can be cut on the cup with a disc
grinder to allow a wrench instead of those brittle
expensive pins.

p.s. Try the right side cup too. If that moves, you can
easily deal with the left one after disasssembly.

Thanks for the added tips. Off to get penetrating oil and new
pins now. Grinding on it is beyond my abilities, so if I'm not
able to get things off with the addition of penetrating oil and
time, I'll be hauling it off to my LBS.

As a last resort, once I simply pulled out the bottom bracket
via the fixed side and then spend half a day cutting the
adjustable cup with a hacksaw blade up to but not touching the
threads. This allowed the cup to collapse partially when the pin
spanner was applied and come loose.

By the way - you ARE turning the adjustable cup off clockwise
aren't you?

No, counterclockwise--same direction the lockring came off, and
the direction that every website I looked at called for. As I
understand it, the fixed cup may be threaded the other direction.

Just to clarify (I have spent a lot of time with Angel Rodriguez and
in his shop; your BB is BSC threaded) the chain side (right side
when riding) cup is reverse thread. The non-drive side (clean side,
adjustable side, left side) unscrews like a jar lid.

Okay, after nearly a week of daily Blaster drips, I got replacement
pins last night. Today I was able to get the adjustable cup out, a
bit of back and forth helped.

Now I'm tackling the fixed cup, using the large bolts and wrenches as
described by Sheldon. So far I haven't been able to get it to budge,
and before I spend too much time moosing on it I want to double
confirm it is reverse threaded. In other words, I should be turning
from the outside of the shell and not from the inside.

Thanks again to all for the great tips!

I've never been able to make Sheldon's scheme of a bolt, nut and
washers work as he described it. What I have had success with was
using a nut, bolt and washers to clamp the correct size wrench in
place so it didn't slip when loosening the fixed cup. I've no idea of
costs in the U.S. but here a cheap Chinese wrench costs, maybe, a
dollar, or even three :-)


The Zeus and Kingsbridge tools of that style have big flat
faces for maximum contact with the cup and a hefty Acme
thread. They are best used in a vise, secured together and
then the frame is unscrewed from the cup.

Where there are still useful wrench flats on the cup, using
them is the best approach IMHO.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 10:24:46 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2017 5:33 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 16:46:53 -0500, Ted Heise
wrote:
On Mon, 9 Jan 2017, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/9/2017 4:26 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 10:43:33 -0800 (PST),
wrote:
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 10:01:31 AM UTC-8, Theodore Heise wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 11:08:20 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/7/2017 8:33 PM, Theodore Heise wrote:

I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear
bottom bracket in serious need of overhaul [both cups
stuck]

Delco 10.4020 penetrant is the best, PC Blaster is
good. Warming with a heat gun can help.

If no other path, flats can be cut on the cup with a
disc grinder to allow a wrench instead of those brittle
expensive pins.

p.s. Try the right side cup too. If that moves, you can
easily deal with the left one after disasssembly.

Thanks for the added tips. Off to get penetrating oil
and new pins now. Grinding on it is beyond my
abilities, so if I'm not able to get things off with the
addition of penetrating oil and time, I'll be hauling it
off to my LBS.

As a last resort, once I simply pulled out the bottom
bracket via the fixed side and then spend half a day
cutting the adjustable cup with a hacksaw blade up to but
not touching the threads. This allowed the cup to
collapse partially when the pin spanner was applied and
come loose.

Just to clarify (I have spent a lot of time with Angel
Rodriguez and in his shop; your BB is BSC threaded) the
chain side (right side when riding) cup is reverse thread.
The non-drive side (clean side, adjustable side, left side)
unscrews like a jar lid.

Okay, after nearly a week of daily Blaster drips, I got
replacement pins last night. Today I was able to get the
adjustable cup out, a bit of back and forth helped.

Now I'm tackling the fixed cup, using the large bolts and
wrenches as described by Sheldon. So far I haven't been able
to get it to budge, and before I spend too much time moosing
on it I want to double confirm it is reverse threaded. In
other words, I should be turning from the outside of the
shell and not from the inside.

I've never been able to make Sheldon's scheme of a bolt, nut
and washers work as he described it. What I have had success
with was using a nut, bolt and washers to clamp the correct
size wrench in place so it didn't slip when loosening the
fixed cup. I've no idea of costs in the U.S. but here a cheap
Chinese wrench costs, maybe, a dollar, or even three :-)

The Zeus and Kingsbridge tools of that style have big flat
faces for maximum contact with the cup and a hefty Acme thread.
They are best used in a vise, secured together and then the
frame is unscrewed from the cup.

Where there are still useful wrench flats on the cup, using
them is the best approach IMHO.

In the way of follow up, I can now report complete success. I
picked up an additional large bolt, nut, and washer that allowed
me to clamp the Park tool securely against the fixed cup flats
(and rounds). I then fastened a four-foot length of 1" pipe to
the tool arm with two hose clamps. Using this I was able to get
the fixed cup out fairly easily.

The front (captain's) cups were not much of a challenge to get
out. The adjustable cup turned freely, once the lockring was off.
The fixed cup sneered at the unassisted Park tool, so I set up the
same clamping and pipe extension. First go, the eccentric started
turning in the shell--so I had to disassemble the clamping setup,
and tighten the eccentric's wedge. After that, the secured wrench
(with cheater extension) was able to turn the fixed cup loose.

Off to the LBS now to order neew parts. Probably sealed cartridge
units for both.

Thanks again for the great help!

--
Ted Heise Bloomington, IN, USA

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 06:33:45 +0700, John B.
wrote:

I've no idea of
costs in the U.S. but here a cheap Chinese wrench costs, maybe, a
dollar, or even three :-)

http://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tools/wrenches/9-piece-metric-highly-polished-combo-wrench-set-42305.html
9 wrenches for $6 or an average of $0.67/ea. It's sometimes cheaper
to buy a set than a single wrench. I have certain sizes that I use
commonly. I search the flea markets and garage sales for these. Most
end up having handles or "torque amplifier" extensions brazed on, so
the general condition is not an issue. Average garage sale price is
about $0.25 for the small wrenches and totally random for larger
wrenches. They seem to be priced by their weight.

Also, I ordered 4 of these last week, but they haven't arrived yet.
One each for the bicycle tool kit, microscope repair kit, automobile
tool box, and Skil saw. They're guaranteed to break off a pin if
forced, but at the price, it's difficult to complain.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 06:33:45 +0700, John B.
wrote:

I've no idea of
costs in the U.S. but here a cheap Chinese wrench costs, maybe, a
dollar, or even three :-)

http://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tools/wrenches/9-piece-metric-highly-polished-combo-wrench-set-42305.html
9 wrenches for $6 or an average of $0.67/ea. It's sometimes cheaper
to buy a set than a single wrench.

Tends to be a case of; "you get what you paid for" - although I tend to buy
sets from discount stores, most wear out quicker and I've had brittle ones
that snap at the first sign of serious work.

Generally; I take the view "they're tools, not ornaments" So I'm not always
particularly gentle with them - might as well wreck cheap tools than
expensive ones.

At the end of the day - all that matters is getting the job done.