Need advice on bottom bracket repair

On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 9:55:19 AM UTC-8, David Scheidt wrote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote:

:I want to know why it works at least twice as good as the others on
:the list.

My experience is that it doesn't. That's just one of the reasons no
one puts it in a can and sells it commercially. I read the original
article, a long time ago, and as I recall the testing method was about
as scientfic as drawing lots.

Commercial penetrating oils are far superior.


Coca-cola?

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 9 Jan 2017 22:24:41 -0000, "Benderthe.evilrobot"
wrote:

"Theodore Heise" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 17:01:01 -0800,
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 16:31:15 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
(...)

Yet another untested idea...

Use an induction heater on the steel cup.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyZEaPQinO0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJElT9xK3bk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uimEZKrVNO0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u1IBgefNDs [1]
http://www.theinductor.com
You'll need various size coils for different bolts, cups, seat posts,
etc. There are induction heater kits on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000W-ZVS-Low-Voltage-Induction-Heating-Board-Module-Flyback-Heater-Brass-Coil-/282317713643
The steel cup gets hot and not so much the rest of the bicycle,
including the aluminum bottom bracket which sucks away much of the
heat. However, you can get the steel hot enough to melt the aluminum,
so please use an IR thermometer to keep the temperatures down.
Aluminum melts at 660C.

Yikes!

Is there a problem?

An electric heat gun is safer than a blowtorch - but I think you still
have
to be a bit careful.

The heavy duty paint strippers aren't too bad, but some heat guns are
designed for lighting solid fuel cooking ranges.

The problem with external heat generators is that the heat affected
zone is rather large and will surely creep into undesirable areas,

A bigger problem is heating too small an area and causing the metal to
distort.

"Doug Landau" wrote in message
...
On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 9:55:19 AM UTC-8, David Scheidt wrote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote:

:I want to know why it works at least twice as good as the others on
:the list.

My experience is that it doesn't. That's just one of the reasons no
one puts it in a can and sells it commercially. I read the original
article, a long time ago, and as I recall the testing method was about
as scientfic as drawing lots.

Commercial penetrating oils are far superior.


Coca-cola?


Apparently it contains phosphoric acid - which is also an ingredient of some
rust treatments.

The rust is chemically converted into iron phosphate - the end result bears
some resemblance to the metal equivalent of polystyrene cement.

On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 16:42:20 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/9/2017 4:40 PM, wrote:
On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 2:27:01 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 2:15:41 PM UTC-8, Theodore Heise wrote:
On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 10:43:33 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

As a last resort, once I simply pulled out the bottom
bracket via the fixed side and then spend half a day
cutting the adjustable cup with a hacksaw blade up to but
not touching the threads. This allowed the cup to collapse
partially when the pin spanner was applied and come loose.

If you have an aluminum frame and BB you cannot leave them
outside in the winter and should not ride through water
deep enough to threaten the integrity of the coupling.

By the way - you ARE turning the adjustable cup off
clockwise aren't you?

No, counterclockwise--same direction the lockring came off,
and the direction that every website I looked at called for.
As I understand it, the fixed cup may be threaded the other
direction.

Uh, Ted, what does the lock ring and the fixed cup have
stamped on them? Unless your Tandem is Italian the bottom
bracket is probably either French of most probably English.
That means that the adjustable side (left ride looking
forward) will be threaded BACKWARDS. And it will unwind in a
clockwise direction.

That is one of the most common errors of people taking bottom
brackets out for the first half dozen times.

Since I'm not familiar with Tandems anymore perhaps I should
ask some questions: Going back I note that your Tandem is a
Rodriguez. So it definitely does have an English bottom
bracket.

On what SIDE of the bike is the adjustable cup?

next to the stoker's left foot.

Correct. On the timing chain side. The fixed cup is on the drive
chain side (by stoker's right foot).

--
Ted Heise Bloomington, IN, USA

On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 11:33:11 AM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 1:46:39 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 10:47:48 AM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:11:45 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:02:27 PM UTC-8,
Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 1:14:21 PM UTC-8,
Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
"Theodore Heise" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 11:08:20 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/7/2017 8:33 PM, Theodore Heise wrote:
Hi all,

I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear
bottom
bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop
severely.

I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left
side,
but
the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a
quarter
turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further. It has
no
flats for a wrench instead having holes for turning with
a
pin
spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of force on it.

I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice
for
me?

Delco 10.4020 penetrant is the best, PC Blaster is good.
Warming with a heat gun can help.

If no other path, flats can be cut on the cup with a disc
grinder to allow a wrench instead of those brittle
expensive
pins.

p.s. Try the right side cup too. If that moves, you can
easily
deal with the left one after disasssembly.

Thanks for the added tips. Off to get penetrating oil and
new
pins now. Grinding on it is beyond my abilities, so if I'm
not
able to get things off with the addition of penetrating oil
and
time, I'll be hauling it off to my LBS.

At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight spot and give
it
a
few
strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it out bit at a
time
that
way.

Once I had to shift a seized in pedal shaft, after snapping a
couple
of
spanners - I welded on the biggest nut I had a spanner for.
Quenching
the
hot steel with penetrating oil did slightly more than just
spraying
it
on
cold. The same approach would probably work with a BB cup.

It is extremely bad practice to hammer a pin spanner.

Who said anything about hammering a pin spanner?!!!

If you can't be bothered reading a post - don't bother answering
it
either.

I might suggest "At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight
spot
and
give it a few strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it
out
bit
at
a time that way." sounds an awful lot like hammering on a pin
spanner.
Are
you supposing we're discussing removing pedals from a crank?

Sorry - I forgot you were that thick.

I'll draw pictures next time.

So you meant something other than what you wrote. Well that makes
sense.

Its so simple it just never occurred to me that anyone could **** it
up -
but somehow you always seem to manage.

Then perhaps you can explain how you didn't say to hit it with a hammer
after writing for everyone to see you suggest hitting the pin spanner
with
a hammer? Did you mean that unless you vocalize it, that it doesn't
count?

I didn't say hit the pin spanner with a hammer - you did.

And I would have understood you better if you spoke in English instead of
Benderthe.evilrobot doubletalk. Tell me who hits their paint job with a
hammer?

Your school days must've been lots of fun when the other kids caught up with
you for going around making up stories.

So much fun that when I look at a cop for acting stupid they back off and pull a gun. Why don't you get within arm's reach and tell me about my school days.

On Mon, 9 Jan 2017 18:55:14 -0800 (PST),
wrote:
On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 5:48:46 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/9/2017 7:44 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 9 Jan 2017 22:17:31 +0000 (UTC), Theodore Heise
wrote:

On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 14:59:56 -0800 (PST),
DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:

if you search on aluminum/steel frame/shells/cups install
or remove there should be an avalanche of umbrage.

if your system shows white material in joints then poss an
ionic binding occurred between steel and aluminum. Andy
Muzi is an expert on this.

Blaster does not dissolve the white material. Uneeda torch
and another pin tool.

expanding aluminum with torch or heat gun will remove the
cup.

Okay, I will try heating too.

You might want to know that as a general statement aluminum
bike frames are heat treated after welding and heating
aluminum to approximately 300 - 400 degrees C will anneal
it.

As an aside, probably because of the ability of aluminum to
rapidly transfer heat, my experience in heating cylindrical
objects to enlarge them has been spotty at best. If you heat
the cylinder in an oven so that the entire devise is an
equal temperature then it will enlarge to a rather
surprising amount. If you try the same thing with a torch it
doesn't work so well as, I suspect, while you are heating
one side the other side is merrily transferring heat to the
air or supporting structure so what you end up with isn't a
circle but an oval.

No argument with any of that, good advise.

Good to knowm thanks.


Moderate (120~150F) heat from a heat gun seems to help
penetrants. Lighting the work on fire may have entertainment
value, but probably won't help with the actual mission.

I am presently visualizing poor Ted stand back as his expensive
Rodriguez goes up in flames.

Yes, another "yikes!" on this. Getting beyond my skill/comfort
level...

--
Ted Heise Bloomington, IN, USA

On 10/01/2017 2:43 PM, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:

"Doug Landau" wrote in message
...
On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 9:55:19 AM UTC-8, David Scheidt wrote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote:

:I want to know why it works at least twice as good as the others on
:the list.

My experience is that it doesn't. That's just one of the reasons no
one puts it in a can and sells it commercially. I read the original
article, a long time ago, and as I recall the testing method was about
as scientfic as drawing lots.

Commercial penetrating oils are far superior.


Coca-cola?


Apparently it contains phosphoric acid - which is also an ingredient of
some rust treatments.

The rust is chemically converted into iron phosphate - the end result
bears some resemblance to the metal equivalent of polystyrene cement.

Don't know about rust treatments but when I was a kid working as a mech
helper at the local Coca-Cola plant we would use Fresca to remove the
grease from the truck bay doors.

On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 11:36:41 AM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:
"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 9 Jan 2017 22:24:41 -0000, "Benderthe.evilrobot"
wrote:

"Theodore Heise" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 17:01:01 -0800,
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 16:31:15 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
(...)

Yet another untested idea...

Use an induction heater on the steel cup.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyZEaPQinO0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJElT9xK3bk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uimEZKrVNO0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u1IBgefNDs [1]
http://www.theinductor.com
You'll need various size coils for different bolts, cups, seat posts,
etc. There are induction heater kits on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000W-ZVS-Low-Voltage-Induction-Heating-Board-Module-Flyback-Heater-Brass-Coil-/282317713643
The steel cup gets hot and not so much the rest of the bicycle,
including the aluminum bottom bracket which sucks away much of the
heat. However, you can get the steel hot enough to melt the aluminum,
so please use an IR thermometer to keep the temperatures down.
Aluminum melts at 660C.

Yikes!

Is there a problem?

An electric heat gun is safer than a blowtorch - but I think you still
have
to be a bit careful.

The heavy duty paint strippers aren't too bad, but some heat guns are
designed for lighting solid fuel cooking ranges.

The problem with external heat generators is that the heat affected
zone is rather large and will surely creep into undesirable areas,

A bigger problem is heating too small an area and causing the metal to
distort.

I'm sure that you've distorted many bottom brackets with a hair dryer.

On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 15:15:58 +0700,
John B wrote:
On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 19:48:48 -0600, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/9/2017 7:44 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 9 Jan 2017 22:17:31 +0000 (UTC), Theodore Heise
wrote:

Okay, I will try heating too.

You might want to know that as a general statement aluminum
bike frames are heat treated after welding and heating
aluminum to approximately 300 - 400 degrees C will anneal it.

As an aside, probably because of the ability of aluminum to
rapidly transfer heat, my experience in heating cylindrical
objects to enlarge them has been spotty at best. If you heat
the cylinder in an oven so that the entire devise is an equal
temperature then it will enlarge to a rather surprising
amount. If you try the same thing with a torch it doesn't
work so well as, I suspect, while you are heating one side
the other side is merrily transferring heat to the air or
supporting structure so what you end up with isn't a circle
but an oval.

No argument with any of that, good advise.

Moderate (120~150F) heat from a heat gun seems to help
penetrants. Lighting the work on fire may have entertainment
value, but probably won't help with the actual mission.

Yes it might work but I would suggest three or four heat guns
located radially on all sides to get as even a heat as
possible. Start the heating and than go off and have a cuppa or
watch youtube and come back "after a while" and try it.

Three to four heat guns sounds logical, but not practical. I've
already invested in about as large an arsenal of equipment as I
want. Maybe more.

--
Ted Heise Bloomington, IN, USA

On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 22:20:13 -0800,
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 9 Jan 2017 22:24:41 -0000, "Benderthe.evilrobot"
wrote:

"Theodore Heise" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 17:01:01 -0800,
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 16:31:15 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
(...)

Yet another untested idea...

Use an induction heater on the steel cup.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyZEaPQinO0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJElT9xK3bk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uimEZKrVNO0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u1IBgefNDs [1]
http://www.theinductor.com
You'll need various size coils for different bolts, cups, seat posts,
etc. There are induction heater kits on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000W-ZVS-Low-Voltage-Induction-Heating-Board-Module-Flyback-Heater-Brass-Coil-/282317713643
The steel cup gets hot and not so much the rest of the bicycle,
including the aluminum bottom bracket which sucks away much of the
heat. However, you can get the steel hot enough to melt the aluminum,
so please use an IR thermometer to keep the temperatures down.
Aluminum melts at 660C.

Yikes!

Is there a problem?

Maybe, maybe not. I read "induction heater" and just assumed it
would be pretty complex, and possibly dangerous (to me and/or
bike). Maybe I goofed by not reading the links.


An electric heat gun is safer than a blowtorch - but I think
you still have to be a bit careful.

The heavy duty paint strippers aren't too bad, but some heat
guns are designed for lighting solid fuel cooking ranges.

The problem with external heat generators is that the heat
affected zone is rather large and will surely creep into
undesirable areas, such as painted parts.

No painted parts, it's polished aluminum.


...With an induction
heater, you only heat the steel parts. Aluminum only gets hot
as far as what it conducts away from the steel.

If you happen to have an induction cooktop stove, you can
demonstrate how this works. Put a steel pot on top of the
induction heater, and only the steel will get hot. Put an
aluminum, glass, or copper pan on the stovetop, and they stay
cold. Toss a coin with stainless (magnetic stainless mostly
works, non-magnetic does not).

It's the same with using an induction heater on the bottom
bracket. The steel components get hot, while the aluminum
bottom bracket and frame do not.

I don't propose heating the cup to red hot:

http://www.hearth.com/talk/attachments/metal-color-temp-chart-png.100306/
which is why I suggested an IR thermometer be used to monitor
the temperature.

Too much complexity/equipment for me, but thanks for the thoughts.

--
Ted Heise Bloomington, IN, USA