Need advice on bottom bracket repair

On 10/01/2017 4:13 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/10/2017 1:52 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 11:36:41 AM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 9 Jan 2017 22:24:41 -0000, "Benderthe.evilrobot"
wrote:

"Theodore Heise" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 17:01:01 -0800,
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 16:31:15 -0800, Jeff Liebermann

wrote:
(...)

Yet another untested idea...

Use an induction heater on the steel cup.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyZEaPQinO0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJElT9xK3bk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uimEZKrVNO0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u1IBgefNDs [1]
http://www.theinductor.com
You'll need various size coils for different bolts, cups, seat
posts,
etc. There are induction heater kits on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000W-ZVS-Low-Voltage-Induction-Heating-Board-Module-Flyback-Heater-Brass-Coil-/282317713643

The steel cup gets hot and not so much the rest of the bicycle,
including the aluminum bottom bracket which sucks away much of the
heat. However, you can get the steel hot enough to melt the
aluminum,
so please use an IR thermometer to keep the temperatures down.
Aluminum melts at 660C.

Yikes!

Is there a problem?

An electric heat gun is safer than a blowtorch - but I think you still
have
to be a bit careful.

The heavy duty paint strippers aren't too bad, but some heat guns are
designed for lighting solid fuel cooking ranges.

The problem with external heat generators is that the heat affected
zone is rather large and will surely creep into undesirable areas,

A bigger problem is heating too small an area and causing the metal to
distort.

I'm sure that you've distorted many bottom brackets with a hair dryer.

and those really big curlers under a plastic cap...


With a burnt down lucky strike hanging off your lower lip.

On 1/10/2017 2:24 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 11:51:53 AM UTC-8, Theodore Heise wrote:

Yes, another "yikes!" on this. Getting beyond my skill/comfort
level...

Ted, these people have been inundating you with all of these things that they've never actually done themselves. So they are advice and not instructions. Andrew Muzi is the only professional.

Usually the reason that a bottom bracket cup with not pull out is because there was something in the threads when it was inserted. Or they used the incorrect kind of Loctite.

Since your bike is polished aluminum I assume you've been careful with it and not left it out in the weather.

If you carefully work the adjustable cup back and forth and it doesn't gradually start turning out take it to a COMPETENT bike shop. Even if you force it out eventually there's the chance that you can damage the frame's finish. A good shop will have shop quality tools that made this a whole lot less likely.

As I said before, in one case I removed the BB from the fixed side and then sawed the adjustable cup down ALMOST to the threads and then the cup would distort enough to allow it to come out. But that was an awful job and I certainly wouldn't recommend it. In another case the incorrect loctite was used in a bottom bracket on a carbon frame and it was twisted so hard that the liner broke loose from the frame and spun in the bottom impossible to remove. I'm still deciding to take that frame down to Santa Cruz so that the carbon people would forcibly remove the entire liner and repair it back to normal. I NEVER use loctite that hasn't been applied to a new bottom bracket by the manufacturer.

There is no need in English bottom brackets anyway. And the new sealed units do not walk out anyway. But tandems are a special case and I don't think you can get a sealed BB for them. The spindle length on a tandem is peculiar to the specific bike.


In fact there are not only tandem cartridge BB units in both
spline and square, those have been oem standard for 30 years.

p.s. Mr Slocumb's experience with airplanes and other
equipment makes him very qualified to comment about
mechanical service processes.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

"Duane" wrote in message
news
On 10/01/2017 4:13 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/10/2017 1:52 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 11:36:41 AM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 9 Jan 2017 22:24:41 -0000, "Benderthe.evilrobot"
wrote:

"Theodore Heise" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 17:01:01 -0800,
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 16:31:15 -0800, Jeff Liebermann

wrote:
(...)

Yet another untested idea...

Use an induction heater on the steel cup.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyZEaPQinO0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJElT9xK3bk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uimEZKrVNO0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u1IBgefNDs [1]
http://www.theinductor.com
You'll need various size coils for different bolts, cups, seat
posts,
etc. There are induction heater kits on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000W-ZVS-Low-Voltage-Induction-Heating-Board-Module-Flyback-Heater-Brass-Coil-/282317713643

The steel cup gets hot and not so much the rest of the bicycle,
including the aluminum bottom bracket which sucks away much of
the
heat. However, you can get the steel hot enough to melt the
aluminum,
so please use an IR thermometer to keep the temperatures down.
Aluminum melts at 660C.

Yikes!

Is there a problem?

An electric heat gun is safer than a blowtorch - but I think you
still
have
to be a bit careful.

The heavy duty paint strippers aren't too bad, but some heat guns are
designed for lighting solid fuel cooking ranges.

The problem with external heat generators is that the heat affected
zone is rather large and will surely creep into undesirable areas,

A bigger problem is heating too small an area and causing the metal to
distort.

I'm sure that you've distorted many bottom brackets with a hair dryer.

and those really big curlers under a plastic cap...


With a burnt down lucky strike hanging off your lower lip.


Do you speak from experience?

On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 15:18:30 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/10/2017 2:24 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 11:51:53 AM UTC-8, Theodore Heise wrote:

Yes, another "yikes!" on this. Getting beyond my
skill/comfort level...

Ted, these people have been inundating you with all of these
things that they've never actually done themselves. So they
are advice and not instructions. Andrew Muzi is the only
professional.

Usually the reason that a bottom bracket cup with not pull out
is because there was something in the threads when it was
inserted. Or they used the incorrect kind of Loctite.

Since your bike is polished aluminum I assume you've been
careful with it and not left it out in the weather.

Yes indeed, though my wife and I have ridden it the rain a time or
two when caught out.

As an aside, the finish has been a royal *pain* to keep looking
nice. The fellow I bought it from recommended steel wool to
polish it (yikes!), but I've found Simichrome to give the best
results. It looks really flashy when recently polished, but dulls
with time--especially in areas where sweat or sports drinks drip
onto it.


If you carefully work the adjustable cup back and forth and it
doesn't gradually start turning out take it to a COMPETENT
bike shop. Even if you force it out eventually there's the
chance that you can damage the frame's finish. A good shop
will have shop quality tools that made this a whole lot less
likely.

Yes, this is my current plan. I've got replacement pins on order
for the pin spanner, but it will be a few more days before they
arrive. In the meantime, I'm driping Blaster onto both cups at
least daily.


As I said before, in one case I removed the BB from the fixed
side and then sawed the adjustable cup down ALMOST to the
threads and then the cup would distort enough to allow it to
come out. But that was an awful job and I certainly wouldn't
recommend it.

Completely agree, too much trouble for me!


I NEVER use loctite that hasn't been applied to a new bottom
bracket by the manufacturer.

There is no need in English bottom brackets anyway. And the
new sealed units do not walk out anyway. But tandems are a
special case and I don't think you can get a sealed BB for
them. The spindle length on a tandem is peculiar to the
specific bike.

In fact there are not only tandem cartridge BB units in both
spline and square, those have been oem standard for 30 years.

p.s. Mr Slocumb's experience with airplanes and other equipment
makes him very qualified to comment about mechanical service
processes.

Thanks to you both for the great feedback!

--
Ted Heise Bloomington, IN, USA

On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 1:18:28 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/10/2017 2:24 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 11:51:53 AM UTC-8, Theodore Heise wrote:

Yes, another "yikes!" on this. Getting beyond my skill/comfort
level...

Ted, these people have been inundating you with all of these things that they've never actually done themselves. So they are advice and not instructions. Andrew Muzi is the only professional.

Usually the reason that a bottom bracket cup with not pull out is because there was something in the threads when it was inserted. Or they used the incorrect kind of Loctite.

Since your bike is polished aluminum I assume you've been careful with it and not left it out in the weather.

If you carefully work the adjustable cup back and forth and it doesn't gradually start turning out take it to a COMPETENT bike shop. Even if you force it out eventually there's the chance that you can damage the frame's finish. A good shop will have shop quality tools that made this a whole lot less likely.

As I said before, in one case I removed the BB from the fixed side and then sawed the adjustable cup down ALMOST to the threads and then the cup would distort enough to allow it to come out. But that was an awful job and I certainly wouldn't recommend it. In another case the incorrect loctite was used in a bottom bracket on a carbon frame and it was twisted so hard that the liner broke loose from the frame and spun in the bottom impossible to remove. I'm still deciding to take that frame down to Santa Cruz so that the carbon people would forcibly remove the entire liner and repair it back to normal. I NEVER use loctite that hasn't been applied to a new bottom bracket by the manufacturer.

There is no need in English bottom brackets anyway. And the new sealed units do not walk out anyway. But tandems are a special case and I don't think you can get a sealed BB for them. The spindle length on a tandem is peculiar to the specific bike.


In fact there are not only tandem cartridge BB units in both
spline and square, those have been oem standard for 30 years.

p.s. Mr Slocumb's experience with airplanes and other
equipment makes him very qualified to comment about
mechanical service processes.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Joshua Slocumb? I didn't realize he flew too.

writes:

On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 12:23:50 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 11:43:16 AM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
"Doug Landau" wrote in message
...
On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 9:55:19 AM UTC-8, David Scheidt wrote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote:

:I want to know why it works at least twice as good as the others on
:the list.

My experience is that it doesn't. That's just one of the reasons no
one puts it in a can and sells it commercially. I read the original
article, a long time ago, and as I recall the testing method was about
as scientfic as drawing lots.

Commercial penetrating oils are far superior.


Coca-cola?


Apparently it contains phosphoric acid - which is also an ingredient of
some
rust treatments.

The rust is chemically converted into iron phosphate - the end result
bears
some resemblance to the metal equivalent of polystyrene cement.

Where did you get the idea that Coca Cola contains any sort of phosphate?
Other than phosphate salts, most phosphate compounds are poisonous.

From the ingredients label.

Citric Acid
Caffeine
Sugar
Water
Vanilla
Caramel

Which one of those is "phosphate"?

What's *your* source? I read

http://www.coca-colaproductfacts.com...cts/coca-cola/

and saw:

Carbonated water, high fructose corn syrup, caramel color,
phosphoric acid, natural flavors, caffeine.

The original allegation was that Coca Cola contains phosphoric
acid.

Buffered phosphoric acid, or "acid phosphate", was an ingredient in soda
fountain drinks for many years. Now you can buy it again:

http://prairiemoon.biz/Horsfords-Ext...oz_p_1427.html

Quaff in moderation, many claim that excessive phosphoric acid
consumption results in calcium loss from the skeleton.

--

On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 2:36:33 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 1:18:28 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/10/2017 2:24 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 11:51:53 AM UTC-8, Theodore Heise wrote:

Yes, another "yikes!" on this. Getting beyond my skill/comfort
level...

Ted, these people have been inundating you with all of these things that they've never actually done themselves. So they are advice and not instructions. Andrew Muzi is the only professional.

Usually the reason that a bottom bracket cup with not pull out is because there was something in the threads when it was inserted. Or they used the incorrect kind of Loctite.

Since your bike is polished aluminum I assume you've been careful with it and not left it out in the weather.

If you carefully work the adjustable cup back and forth and it doesn't gradually start turning out take it to a COMPETENT bike shop. Even if you force it out eventually there's the chance that you can damage the frame's finish. A good shop will have shop quality tools that made this a whole lot less likely.

As I said before, in one case I removed the BB from the fixed side and then sawed the adjustable cup down ALMOST to the threads and then the cup would distort enough to allow it to come out. But that was an awful job and I certainly wouldn't recommend it. In another case the incorrect loctite was used in a bottom bracket on a carbon frame and it was twisted so hard that the liner broke loose from the frame and spun in the bottom impossible to remove. I'm still deciding to take that frame down to Santa Cruz so that the carbon people would forcibly remove the entire liner and repair it back to normal. I NEVER use loctite that hasn't been applied to a new bottom bracket by the manufacturer.

There is no need in English bottom brackets anyway. And the new sealed units do not walk out anyway. But tandems are a special case and I don't think you can get a sealed BB for them. The spindle length on a tandem is peculiar to the specific bike.


In fact there are not only tandem cartridge BB units in both
spline and square, those have been oem standard for 30 years.

p.s. Mr Slocumb's experience with airplanes and other
equipment makes him very qualified to comment about
mechanical service processes.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Joshua Slocumb? I didn't realize he flew too.

Bernard_Moitessier Joshua Slocumb

https://www.google.com/search?q=bern...sJ NefNk-M%3A

On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 2:57:02 PM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
writes:

On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 12:23:50 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 11:43:16 AM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
"Doug Landau" wrote in message
...
On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 9:55:19 AM UTC-8, David Scheidt wrote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote:

:I want to know why it works at least twice as good as the others on
:the list.

My experience is that it doesn't. That's just one of the reasons no
one puts it in a can and sells it commercially. I read the original
article, a long time ago, and as I recall the testing method was about
as scientfic as drawing lots.

Commercial penetrating oils are far superior.


Coca-cola?


Apparently it contains phosphoric acid - which is also an ingredient of
some
rust treatments.

The rust is chemically converted into iron phosphate - the end result
bears
some resemblance to the metal equivalent of polystyrene cement.

Where did you get the idea that Coca Cola contains any sort of phosphate?
Other than phosphate salts, most phosphate compounds are poisonous.

From the ingredients label.

Citric Acid
Caffeine
Sugar
Water
Vanilla
Caramel

Which one of those is "phosphate"?

What's *your* source? I read

http://www.coca-colaproductfacts.com...cts/coca-cola/

and saw:

Carbonated water, high fructose corn syrup, caramel color,
phosphoric acid, natural flavors, caffeine.

The original allegation was that Coca Cola contains phosphoric
acid.

Buffered phosphoric acid, or "acid phosphate", was an ingredient in soda
fountain drinks for many years. Now you can buy it again:

http://prairiemoon.biz/Horsfords-Ext...oz_p_1427.html

Quaff in moderation, many claim that excessive phosphoric acid
consumption results in calcium loss from the skeleton.

--

A bottle of Coca Cola. I don't drink any softdrinks but always keep that old bottle around to remind me why I don't. Maybe that's Mexican though. This whole state is Hispanic now. There are sections of Redwood City where there aren't a single sign in English. Even the bus schedules are in Spanish.

On Saturday, January 7, 2017 at 9:33:31 PM UTC-5, Theodore Heise wrote:
Hi all,

I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom bracket
in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop severely.

I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left side, but the
adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a quarter turn, but
then gets too stiff to turn further. It has no flats for a wrench
instead having holes for turning with a pin spanner--so I'm unable
to put a lot of force on it.

I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice for me?

--
Ted Heise Bloomington, IN, USA

Sometimes a partially stuck (yours turns a bit) adjustable cup can be removed by:

Putting something firm like a large socket over the spindle so thatthe edges ofthe socket are against the cup and the spindle is not protruding beyond that socket. Then you give the socked a few good raps with a mallet. Often that'll break loose a lot of the corrosion in thethreads. If the cup still doesn't turn easily I'd put my pin spnaar in position and then add spacers until the spacers are just beyond the edge of the spindle and then put the bolt back into the spindle to hold the washers in place against the pin tool which in turn stops the pin tool from slipping. I can put a lot more pressure on the pin tool that way. Alternatively, after tapping the socket that you put over the spindle and agaist the adjustable cup you can lay the bike on its side with the adjustable cup up and put your favourite penetrating solution onto any threads that are outside the BB shell. the fluid then has a better chance of running into the threads inside the shell than it does if the bike is vertical.

Good luck and cheers

writes:

On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 2:57:02 PM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
writes:

On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 12:23:50 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 11:43:16 AM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
"Doug Landau" wrote in message
...
On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 9:55:19 AM UTC-8, David Scheidt wrote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote:

:I want to know why it works at least twice as good as the others on
:the list.

My experience is that it doesn't. That's just one of the reasons no
one puts it in a can and sells it commercially. I read the original
article, a long time ago, and as I recall the testing method was about
as scientfic as drawing lots.

Commercial penetrating oils are far superior.


Coca-cola?


Apparently it contains phosphoric acid - which is also an ingredient of
some
rust treatments.

The rust is chemically converted into iron phosphate - the end result
bears
some resemblance to the metal equivalent of polystyrene cement.

Where did you get the idea that Coca Cola contains any sort of phosphate?
Other than phosphate salts, most phosphate compounds are poisonous.

From the ingredients label.

Citric Acid
Caffeine
Sugar
Water
Vanilla
Caramel

Which one of those is "phosphate"?

What's *your* source? I read

http://www.coca-colaproductfacts.com...cts/coca-cola/

and saw:

Carbonated water, high fructose corn syrup, caramel color,
phosphoric acid, natural flavors, caffeine.

The original allegation was that Coca Cola contains phosphoric
acid.

Buffered phosphoric acid, or "acid phosphate", was an ingredient in soda
fountain drinks for many years. Now you can buy it again:

http://prairiemoon.biz/Horsfords-Ext...oz_p_1427.html

Quaff in moderation, many claim that excessive phosphoric acid
consumption results in calcium loss from the skeleton.

--

A bottle of Coca Cola. I don't drink any softdrinks but always keep
that old bottle around to remind me why I don't. Maybe that's Mexican
though. This whole state is Hispanic now. There are sections of
Redwood City where there aren't a single sign in English. Even the bus
schedules are in Spanish.

Mexican Coca Cola uses cane sugar instead of high fructose corn syrup,
but it still contains phosphoric acid. Are you sure you don't have some
generic cola?
--