Max heart rates and age

"William R. Mattil" wrote in message
...
On 6/12/2011 2:06 AM, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:


I realize that power is the in thing these days, and sometime I'll
give
it a try (waiting for the vaporware pedal version to appear), but
there
have been a number of rides where watching my heart rate made a big
difference in performance. Most notably was my climb up Haleakala 5
years ago, where I discovered that, once above 8500ft, I couldn't let
it
get above 155 because it would quickly head up from there until I had
nothing left, and recovery took *forever.* Keeping it at or below 155
and I could move at a good clip, but push beyond and boom. I suppose
I
could have done the same thing with power, finding an output that was
sustainable rather than heartrate.


Mike,

The biggest problem with HR only is that, and I'm sure you discovered
this, it lags behind the effort by some amount of time. This time can
often vary but the bottom line is that your relative exertion will
swing back and forth as you attempt to "zero" in on your HR number.

Power doesn't lie and it reacts quickly. As an example if I'm on the
trainer and I can produce 247 Watts at a HR of 157 the 247 Watts will
usually produce the same HR unless outside influences are affecting
your HR such as a large group etc. But even better, if you know you
can sustain 247 Watts for 1 hour then
uphill/downhill/headwind/tailwind doesn't matter. 247 Watts is always
247 Watts.

The Vaporware Pedal system may have some problems even if it ever
makes it to the market.

Problem 1) Wrong choice of pedals. They appear to be ignoring one of
the mainstream pedal systems in use today. From a marketing standpoint
that's pretty stupid.

Originally it was going to be Speedplays, which would have been great
(since that's what I use). Then it appeared they might be moving towards
LOOK. The pedals in widest use would be Shimano, but I seriously doubt
they could get Shimano to work with them.

Problem 2) Even worse ...... Rumblings indicate that you might be tied
to a Polar Display. Which means that it will not be ANT+ and
compatible with other, much more commonly used systems.

I thought the company was purchased by Garmin, not Polar (and Garmin is
a strong advocate for Ant+Sport).

These two items suggest that even if it makes it to the market it will
soon go the way of the DoDo Bird or "Drug Free Professional Cyclist"
and become extinct.

I gave up on this product and went with PowerTap and a Quarq on two
different bikes.

Both of which have issues that keep them from gaining widespread use.
PowerTap needs to get their act together on hub internals (they wear out
too quickly and aren't sealed well-enough against the elements) and
Quarq is too expensive for most. The initial plan for the pedals was a
relatively-affordable pricepoint of $1000. Of course, they never
happened, so is that relevant?

One thing that still amazes me about the systems currently on the market
is their inability to distinguish between right & left-side power. They
could easily do so (their sampling rates are high enough); all they have
to add (in hardware) is a cadence pickup so they know which crank arm is
where. Maybe Quarq does this?

Regards

Bill





--

William R. Mattil

http://www.celestial-images.com

On Jun 12, 2:06*am, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
wrote:
"Anton Berlin" wrote in message

...



In my 20's I used to run at 188 -193 for 51-54 minutes when I time
trialed. *My physiologist liked more than anything to see these steep
recovery curves where the BPM shot up from 110 -190 and went down
almost as quickly. * I had a resting heart rate that was in high 20s
typically. *24 years later my RBR fatty heart barely get's down to 50
during sleep.

Curious what you weighed back then. Most of the bean-pole climbers I
knew tended to have somewhat-higher resting heart rates.I don't think
mine was ever lower than the upper-30s.

These days, I pay a lot more attention to how quickly it recovers, and
the heart rate during the first half hour or so of a ride is a strong
indicator of my general health (when I'm not at the top of my game, it
"idles" higher than it should, and in fact when I'm going to come down
with a cold in a day or two, it will "show up" that way very
consistently.

I realize that power is the in thing these days, and sometime I'll give
it a try (waiting for the vaporware pedal version to appear), but there
have been a number of rides where watching my heart rate made a big
difference in performance. Most notably was my climb up Haleakala 5
years ago, where I discovered that, once above 8500ft, I couldn't let it
get above 155 because it would quickly head up from there until I had
nothing left, and recovery took *forever.* Keeping it at or below 155
and I could move at a good clip, but push beyond and boom. I suppose I
could have done the same thing with power, finding an output that was
sustainable rather than heartrate.

Getting back to that really low resting heart rate of yours back in the
day. Nice to know you had something in common with the early EPO dopers
and their sludgy blood. :-)

--Mike-- * * Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReactionBicycles.com

180 with 3% body fat measured by calipers.by the physiology lab at the
OTC.

I'm with you on the power Mike. I bought a SRM powertap but found
power very variable and I couldn't mentally break the connection
between the idea that my heart rate was at the root of what my power
was.

I still think old fashioned - do tons of miles, lose weight, build up
the system (lungs, muscles, tendons etc) specialize with intervals and
racing and with a little luck you can win a bike race

On Jun 12, 4:34*am, "William R. Mattil"
wrote:
On 6/12/2011 2:06 AM, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:



I realize that power is the in thing these days, and sometime I'll give
it a try (waiting for the vaporware pedal version to appear), but there
have been a number of rides where watching my heart rate made a big
difference in performance. Most notably was my climb up Haleakala 5
years ago, where I discovered that, once above 8500ft, I couldn't let it
get above 155 because it would quickly head up from there until I had
nothing left, and recovery took *forever.* Keeping it at or below 155
and I could move at a good clip, but push beyond and boom. I suppose I
could have done the same thing with power, finding an output that was
sustainable rather than heartrate.

Mike,

The biggest problem with HR only is that, and I'm sure you discovered
this, it lags behind the effort by some amount of time. This time can
often vary but the bottom line is that your relative exertion will swing
back and forth as you attempt to "zero" in on your HR number.

Power doesn't lie and it reacts quickly. As an example if I'm on the
trainer and I can produce 247 Watts at a HR of 157 the 247 Watts will
usually produce the same HR unless outside influences are affecting your
HR such as a large group etc. But even better, if you know you can
sustain 247 Watts for 1 hour then uphill/downhill/headwind/tailwind
doesn't matter. 247 Watts is always 247 Watts.

The Vaporware Pedal system may have some problems even if it ever makes
it to the market.

Problem 1) Wrong choice of pedals. They appear to be ignoring one of the
mainstream pedal systems in use today. From a marketing standpoint
that's pretty stupid.

Problem 2) Even worse ...... Rumblings indicate that you might be tied
to a Polar Display. Which means that it will not be ANT+ and compatible
with other, much more commonly used systems.

These two items suggest that even if it makes it to the market it will
soon go the way of the DoDo Bird or "Drug Free Professional Cyclist" and
become extinct.

I gave up on this product and went with PowerTap and a Quarq on two
different bikes.

Regards

Bill

--

William R. Mattil

http://www.celestial-images.com

Bill - I understand what you're saying but and steady state effort in
power will ultimately result in a steady state heart rate. When I
look at my powertap charts I have to apply a lot of smoothing to make
the power data relevant. Once I do that - for the most part it ends
of mirroring heart rate. What am I missing ?

On Jun 12, 11:34*am, "William R. Mattil"
wrote:

HR such as a large group etc. But even better, if you know you can
sustain 247 Watts for 1 hour then uphill/downhill/headwind/tailwind
doesn't matter. 247 Watts is always 247 Watts.

Yes, that is true for a given terrain. However, it appears that power
production changes with terrain, and people produce pwer differently
in these varying situations. In particular, in my group rides, I am
getting dropped on climbs in which I output a steady 280 watts, but
drop these people on the flats as soon as I get over 220 watts, and
they weigh more than I do.

In other words, they just don't know how to produce power as
efficiently on level ground. This seems to generalise, because I was
watching the Dauphine ITT, and you just have to wonder why Vinokourov
is getting trounced in time trials, it must be that he can't produce
as much power in the aero position.

-ilan

On 6/12/2011 10:38 AM, Anton Berlin wrote:


Bill - I understand what you're saying but and steady state effort in
power will ultimately result in a steady state heart rate. When I
look at my powertap charts I have to apply a lot of smoothing to make
the power data relevant. Once I do that - for the most part it ends
of mirroring heart rate. What am I missing ?

A hard effort produces power in real time. But the Heart Rate lags
behind. And that time period isn't a constant. Perhaps the sampling rate
on your powertap is too long ?

Bill


--

William R. Mattil

http://www.celestial-images.com

On Jun 12, 5:38*pm, Anton Berlin wrote:
On Jun 12, 4:34*am, "William R. Mattil"
wrote:









On 6/12/2011 2:06 AM, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

I realize that power is the in thing these days, and sometime I'll give
it a try (waiting for the vaporware pedal version to appear), but there
have been a number of rides where watching my heart rate made a big
difference in performance. Most notably was my climb up Haleakala 5
years ago, where I discovered that, once above 8500ft, I couldn't let it
get above 155 because it would quickly head up from there until I had
nothing left, and recovery took *forever.* Keeping it at or below 155
and I could move at a good clip, but push beyond and boom. I suppose I
could have done the same thing with power, finding an output that was
sustainable rather than heartrate.

Mike,

The biggest problem with HR only is that, and I'm sure you discovered
this, it lags behind the effort by some amount of time. This time can
often vary but the bottom line is that your relative exertion will swing
back and forth as you attempt to "zero" in on your HR number.

Power doesn't lie and it reacts quickly. As an example if I'm on the
trainer and I can produce 247 Watts at a HR of 157 the 247 Watts will
usually produce the same HR unless outside influences are affecting your
HR such as a large group etc. But even better, if you know you can
sustain 247 Watts for 1 hour then uphill/downhill/headwind/tailwind
doesn't matter. 247 Watts is always 247 Watts.

The Vaporware Pedal system may have some problems even if it ever makes
it to the market.

Problem 1) Wrong choice of pedals. They appear to be ignoring one of the
mainstream pedal systems in use today. From a marketing standpoint
that's pretty stupid.

Problem 2) Even worse ...... Rumblings indicate that you might be tied
to a Polar Display. Which means that it will not be ANT+ and compatible
with other, much more commonly used systems.

These two items suggest that even if it makes it to the market it will
soon go the way of the DoDo Bird or "Drug Free Professional Cyclist" and
become extinct.

I gave up on this product and went with PowerTap and a Quarq on two
different bikes.

Regards

Bill

--

William R. Mattil

http://www.celestial-images.com

Bill - I understand what you're saying but and steady state effort in
power will ultimately result in a steady state heart rate. *When I
look at my powertap charts I have to apply a lot of smoothing to make
the power data relevant. *Once I do that - for the most part it ends
of mirroring heart rate. * What am I missing ?

As an example of lagging heart rate, I have done 8 minute steady state
efforts at 220W (which is a lot on a trainer), and which give a steady
178-180HR after 5 minutes, but my heart rate will be below 170 for the
first 4 minutes. That pretty much shows that using heart rate doesn't
work as well as power.

-ilan

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
I thought the company was purchased by Garmin, not Polar (and Garmin is
a strong advocate for Ant+Sport).

There are two pedal systems, one from Polar which will probably have the
upstream mentioned issues and one from Garmin (Metrigear before Garmin
bought them).

"ilan" wrote in message
...
On Jun 12, 11:34 am, "William R. Mattil"
wrote:

HR such as a large group etc. But even better, if you know you can
sustain 247 Watts for 1 hour then uphill/downhill/headwind/tailwind
doesn't matter. 247 Watts is always 247 Watts.
=========
Yes, that is true for a given terrain. However, it appears that power
production changes with terrain, and people produce pwer differently
in these varying situations. In particular, in my group rides, I am
getting dropped on climbs in which I output a steady 280 watts, but
drop these people on the flats as soon as I get over 220 watts, and
they weigh more than I do.

In other words, they just don't know how to produce power as
efficiently on level ground. This seems to generalise, because I was
watching the Dauphine ITT, and you just have to wonder why Vinokourov
is getting trounced in time trials, it must be that he can't produce
as much power in the aero position.

-ilan
==========

It's true that many people can deliver greater power in one environment,
whether it be climbing, rolling or flats, than another. But it's also
true that using tools to measure output can dramatically help them with
their weaknesses. In my case, I always just thought I sucked on the
flats. I could climb with the best ("could" being past-tense, you'll
note) but only a feeble wheel-sucker on the flats. Until I got a heart
rate monitor and studied the output, and realized that my issues on the
flats were in my head. My assumption was that I was maxed out but the
reality was that I wasn't even close. If I could hold at 165bpm for half
an hour on a climb, with a max of 177, there was no excuse for thinking
154 was reasonable on the flats. And it wasn't. Once I started pushing
myself to what *should* have been possible, voila, it became real. And
today? I'm often at the front in a headwind, or chasing people down.

It's true that a huge percentage of performance comes from your head,
but your head can be trained. Just like your body.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

On Jun 13, 1:54*am, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
wrote:
"ilan" wrote in message

...
On Jun 12, 11:34 am, "William R. Mattil"
wrote:

HR such as a large group etc. But even better, if you know you can
sustain 247 Watts for 1 hour then uphill/downhill/headwind/tailwind
doesn't matter. 247 Watts is always 247 Watts.

=========
Yes, that is true for a given terrain. However, it appears that power
production changes with terrain, and people produce pwer differently
in these varying situations. In particular, in my group rides, I am
getting dropped on climbs in which I output a steady 280 watts, but
drop these people on the flats as soon as I get over 220 watts, and
they weigh more than I do.

In other words, they just don't know how to produce power as
efficiently on level ground. This seems to generalise, because I was
watching the Dauphine ITT, and you just have to wonder why Vinokourov
is getting trounced in time trials, it must be that he can't produce
as much power in the aero position.

-ilan
==========

It's true that many people can deliver greater power in one environment,
whether it be climbing, rolling or flats, than another. But it's also
true that using tools to measure output can dramatically help them with
their weaknesses. In my case, I always just thought I sucked on the
flats. I could climb with the best ("could" being past-tense, you'll
note) but only a feeble wheel-sucker on the flats. Until I got a heart
rate monitor and studied the output, and realized that my issues on the
flats were in my head. My assumption was that I was maxed out but the
reality was that I wasn't even close. If I could hold at 165bpm for half
an hour on a climb, with a max of 177, there was no excuse for thinking
154 was reasonable on the flats. And it wasn't. Once I started pushing
myself to what *should* have been possible, voila, it became real. And
today? I'm often at the front in a headwind, or chasing people down.

It's true that a huge percentage of performance comes from your head,
but your head can be trained. Just like your body.

--Mike-- * * Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Yes, you are correct, because I forgot to mention again that the
people I'm riding with are among the most ignorant and stupid I've
ever encountered, thankfully, not a single other person has a power
meter, and I should stop telling them how useful it is.

Anyway, the point is that climbing is relatively simple technically,
you just "go as hard as you can" and technique probably won't make a
huge difference. On the other hand, riding fast on the flats requires
technique, knowledge, and concentration. For example, since I'm a
terrible climber, any decent runner can kill me on any climb, even if
it's his first time on a bicycle, but he'll never be able to stay with
me on the flats.

-ilan

On Jun 12, 4:15*pm, ilan wrote:
On Jun 12, 5:38*pm, Anton Berlin wrote:









On Jun 12, 4:34*am, "William R. Mattil"
wrote:

On 6/12/2011 2:06 AM, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

I realize that power is the in thing these days, and sometime I'll give
it a try (waiting for the vaporware pedal version to appear), but there
have been a number of rides where watching my heart rate made a big
difference in performance. Most notably was my climb up Haleakala 5
years ago, where I discovered that, once above 8500ft, I couldn't let it
get above 155 because it would quickly head up from there until I had
nothing left, and recovery took *forever.* Keeping it at or below 155
and I could move at a good clip, but push beyond and boom. I suppose I
could have done the same thing with power, finding an output that was
sustainable rather than heartrate.

Mike,

The biggest problem with HR only is that, and I'm sure you discovered
this, it lags behind the effort by some amount of time. This time can
often vary but the bottom line is that your relative exertion will swing
back and forth as you attempt to "zero" in on your HR number.

Power doesn't lie and it reacts quickly. As an example if I'm on the
trainer and I can produce 247 Watts at a HR of 157 the 247 Watts will
usually produce the same HR unless outside influences are affecting your
HR such as a large group etc. But even better, if you know you can
sustain 247 Watts for 1 hour then uphill/downhill/headwind/tailwind
doesn't matter. 247 Watts is always 247 Watts.

The Vaporware Pedal system may have some problems even if it ever makes
it to the market.

Problem 1) Wrong choice of pedals. They appear to be ignoring one of the
mainstream pedal systems in use today. From a marketing standpoint
that's pretty stupid.

Problem 2) Even worse ...... Rumblings indicate that you might be tied
to a Polar Display. Which means that it will not be ANT+ and compatible
with other, much more commonly used systems.

These two items suggest that even if it makes it to the market it will
soon go the way of the DoDo Bird or "Drug Free Professional Cyclist" and
become extinct.

I gave up on this product and went with PowerTap and a Quarq on two
different bikes.

Regards

Bill

--

William R. Mattil

http://www.celestial-images.com

Bill - I understand what you're saying but and steady state effort in
power will ultimately result in a steady state heart rate. *When I
look at my powertap charts I have to apply a lot of smoothing to make
the power data relevant. *Once I do that - for the most part it ends
of mirroring heart rate. * What am I missing ?

As an example of lagging heart rate, I have done 8 minute steady state
efforts at 220W (which is a lot on a trainer), and which give a steady
178-180HR after 5 minutes, but my heart rate will be below 170 for the
first 4 minutes. That pretty much shows that using heart rate doesn't
work as well as power.

-ilan

I'll put it back on my bike and try it again. My thoughts are that
my heart just goes up pretty quick with the effort and goes down when
it ends, Maybe that's good maybe bad.