Veloloop Triggers Inductive Road Sensors

On Fri, 10 Oct 2014 17:28:01 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Thu, 09 Oct 2014 14:39:56 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

Those enlightened Europeans seem to think Jews are the problem:
http://d.ibtimes.co.uk/en/full/13900...i-semitism.jpg

When in doubt, blame the Jews. After a few millennium, we sorta get
used to it. With all the flag burning going on, these guys probably
couldn't find one to buy on short notice and had to make their own.
Supplying Israeli flags for such events is a highly profitable
business.

I'm busy today, so this will not be up to my usual standard of
inaccuracy, math errors, spelling errors, and marginal humor.

Back to vehicle detectors. The problem is the magnetic permeability
of the bicycle frame:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permeability_%28electromagnetism%29#Values_for_som e_common_materials
Carbon steel 1.26x10^-4
Aluminum 1.25x10^-6
Wood 1.25x10^-6
In other words, to have the same effect as steel, an aluminum bike
would need to be 10 times larger. The effect of aluminum is about the
same as a wooden bike, mostly from absorbed moisture in the wood.

The easy fix is to drag along a block of high permeability material to
plop onto the coil. Actually, that might not be correct. (I haven't
tested this yet). The metal block needs to be moved through the coil
field in order to have maximum effect. The circuitry responds with
the change in frequency produced by the change in coil inductance
caused by the introduction of magnetically permeable material into the
field. Instead of slowly crawling over the loop, try riding through
it as fast as reasonably possible. Much depends on the loop time
constant of the phase/frequency detector used by the vehicle detector,
so you'll probably get variable results when testing.

Anyway, a block of something with more permeability from near the top
of the list should be suitable. The various transformer tape winding
materials (cobalt-steel, nickel-steel, silicon-steel) will work to
about 100Khz but only in thin strips. The best might be one of the
high permeability powdered iron ferrite materials, such as 3B7 at
5x10^-6. Not a huge jump over steel, but would still have twice the
effect. I gotta RTFM to find something better. Anyway, a loop of the
stuff swung through the vehicle detector field should get it's
attention.

Ok, back to flag burning.

Disclaimer: I haven't tried any of this, including the flag burning.

The permanent magnets in the front wheel hub generator?

Or maybe a larger generator, with really big magnets, which could have
a ancillary use as power for the (apparently) universally required
high intensity lights :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Saturday, October 11, 2014 12:02:31 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, October 10, 2014 8:28:01 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:





I'm busy today, so this will not be up to my usual standard of

inaccuracy, math errors, spelling errors, and marginal humor.



And I'm at a family reunion at a seaside resort, enjoying great weather and great company. I'll be brief



Back to vehicle detectors. The problem is the magnetic permeability

of the bicycle frame:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permeability_%28electromagnetism%29#Values_for_som e_common_materials



Carbon steel 1.26x10^-4



Aluminum 1.25x10^-6



Wood 1.25x10^-6



In other words, to have the same effect as steel, an aluminum bike



would need to be 10 times larger.



Other technical people with whom I've corresponded have claimed that the wheels

of a bike are what are normally detected. Some have helped traffic engineers

calibrate the loop detectors, by supplying a 20" wheel rim mounted on a

piece of wood. Sensitivity is increased until that single spokeless rim

is detected. I think they were using an aluminum rim, but I'm not sure.



- Frank Krygowski

and short..

well, know we now why yawl having a stroke over this...ineffective base engineering analysis.

If Lieb's Speculation was correct then the dynamo group needs run over the barrier to see what, ?

total ferrous mass is what sets the sensor off with a small nod to fiberglass...in the motor block.

On Saturday, October 11, 2014 10:10:35 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Saturday, October 11, 2014 12:02:31 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Friday, October 10, 2014 8:28:01 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:











I'm busy today, so this will not be up to my usual standard of



inaccuracy, math errors, spelling errors, and marginal humor.







And I'm at a family reunion at a seaside resort, enjoying great weather and great company. I'll be brief







Back to vehicle detectors. The problem is the magnetic permeability



of the bicycle frame:







http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permeability_%28electromagnetism%29#Values_for_som e_common_materials







Carbon steel 1.26x10^-4







Aluminum 1.25x10^-6







Wood 1.25x10^-6







In other words, to have the same effect as steel, an aluminum bike







would need to be 10 times larger.







Other technical people with whom I've corresponded have claimed that the wheels



of a bike are what are normally detected. Some have helped traffic engineers



calibrate the loop detectors, by supplying a 20" wheel rim mounted on a



piece of wood. Sensitivity is increased until that single spokeless rim



is detected. I think they were using an aluminum rim, but I'm not sure.







- Frank Krygowski




and short..

well, know we now why yawl having a stroke over this...ineffective base engineering analysis.

If Lieb's Speculation was correct then the dynamo group needs run over the barrier to see what, ?

total ferrous mass is what sets the sensor off with a small nod to fiberglass...in the motor block.

..........................

idea waving a beer can at a traffic sensor for actuation is uh.......

On Friday, October 10, 2014 5:54:49 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 07 Oct 2014 15:05:50 -0400, Frank Krygowski

wrote:



I don't have any interest in hauling my bike over to press a pedestrian

button, then hauling it back into traffic position.



Perhaps you're simply lacking the necessary technology. I have

several of these:

http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4334765

which I use mostly to grab and replace books from my bookshelves when

my step ladder is being misused for other purposes. It should work

with most forms of traffic push buttons. 3ft reach might be a bit

limiting. There are various telescoping poles available for window

washing and ceiling dusting that have a longer reach. Something like

this:

http://www.lsdinc.com/installation/7305/Grabbit---



My bike is legally a vehicle, and vehicle detectors should be

adjusted to detect it.



Good point. When not being used as a traffic button pusher extension,

the telescoping pole could also help you assert your rights as a lance

for jousting with the drivers of automobiles, trucks, buses, and

trains that might be misinterpreting the laws.


I could use one of those to get to the crosswalk buttons on the Springwater Corridor. https://www.flickr.com/photos/bikepo...-nWk2ez-65RSfK

-- Jay Beattie.

On Fri, 10 Oct 2014 21:02:31 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Other technical people with whom I've corresponded have claimed that the wheels
of a bike are what are normally detected. Some have helped traffic engineers
calibrate the loop detectors, by supplying a 20" wheel rim mounted on a
piece of wood. Sensitivity is increased until that single spokeless rim
is detected. I think they were using an aluminum rim, but I'm not sure.
- Frank Krygowski

Did you by chance try the same test with a "split" aluminum rim? If
what you say is true, then it's not so much the permeability of the
material that's important, but rather that the bicycle provides a
"shorted turn" loop to detune the vehicle detection coil. If that
were true, then one should get exactly the same effect using a loop of
light #14 AWG copper house wire, as one would with a proper aluminum
rim. That would be interesting to try. Just a loop of copper or
aluminum wire carried on the bicycle to trigger the traffic signal.
That would be useful for non-metallic frames.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 18:14:46 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

The permanent magnets in the front wheel hub generator?

Nope. Too far away from the loop and not enough mass. Also, see my
reply to Frank K. If the rims are what the loop is detecting, then
perhaps it's not so much the permeability of the bicycle frame that's
important, but rather that there be a shorted turn loop somewhere in
the system. I'm kinda floundering around with more ideas than results
right now because I don't have a vehicle detector that I can use for
testing. They seem cheap enough used on eBay, so I may throw some
money at the problem. MRIN (More Research Is Necessary).

Or maybe a larger generator, with really big magnets, which could have
a ancillary use as power for the (apparently) universally required
high intensity lights :-)

It doesn't work by magnetism and the detector is not a WWII style
German magnetic mine that detects the residual magnetism of ships and
bicycles that might float past.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 10/11/2014 2:01 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Fri, 10 Oct 2014 21:02:31 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Other technical people with whom I've corresponded have claimed that the wheels
of a bike are what are normally detected. Some have helped traffic engineers
calibrate the loop detectors, by supplying a 20" wheel rim mounted on a
piece of wood. Sensitivity is increased until that single spokeless rim
is detected. I think they were using an aluminum rim, but I'm not sure.
- Frank Krygowski

Did you by chance try the same test with a "split" aluminum rim? If
what you say is true, then it's not so much the permeability of the
material that's important, but rather that the bicycle provides a
"shorted turn" loop to detune the vehicle detection coil. If that
were true, then one should get exactly the same effect using a loop of
light #14 AWG copper house wire, as one would with a proper aluminum
rim. That would be interesting to try. Just a loop of copper or
aluminum wire carried on the bicycle to trigger the traffic signal.
That would be useful for non-metallic frames.




One might cold cap off the ends well and run a loop of
stranded copper lamp cord between inner tube and a clincher
tire to test that.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Saturday, October 11, 2014 3:01:40 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Fri, 10 Oct 2014 21:02:31 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski wrote:



Other technical people with whom I've corresponded have claimed that the wheels
of a bike are what are normally detected. Some have helped traffic engineers
calibrate the loop detectors, by supplying a 20" wheel rim mounted on a
piece of wood. Sensitivity is increased until that single spokeless rim
is detected. I think they were using an aluminum rim, but I'm not sure.

Did you by chance try the same test with a "split" aluminum rim? If
what you say is true, then it's not so much the permeability of the
material that's important, but rather that the bicycle provides a
"shorted turn" loop to detune the vehicle detection coil. If that
were true, then one should get exactly the same effect using a loop of
light #14 AWG copper house wire, as one would with a proper aluminum
rim. That would be interesting to try. Just a loop of copper or
aluminum wire carried on the bicycle to trigger the traffic signal.

That would be useful for non-metallic frames.

Well, I haven't tried the trick at all. I read where an online friend of mine
used the rim-on-a-board to help a traffic engineer calibrate loops.

As Andrew noted, one could have a loop of copper wire between the rim strip
and the rim itself to trigger the loop. Sounds reasonable. I suspect it
might make no difference for most bikes, though, in that the aluminum rims
already do that job. Guys with composite rims - and no aluminum braking
surfaces - might find it helps.

But I wonder, if one loop is good, would multiple loops be better? Suppose
we put ten turns of thin, insulated wire under the rim strip, with the
ends electrically connected? Would that make the bike more detectable?

As I've said, as an ME I never had to take Field Theory, so all this is
like witchcraft to me. Bat wings? Lizards tongue? 10 turns of wire?

- Frank Krygowski

On 10/11/2014 8:06 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, October 10, 2014 5:54:49 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 07 Oct 2014 15:05:50 -0400, Frank Krygowski

wrote:



I don't have any interest in hauling my bike over to press a pedestrian

button, then hauling it back into traffic position.



Perhaps you're simply lacking the necessary technology. I have

several of these:

http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4334765

which I use mostly to grab and replace books from my bookshelves when

my step ladder is being misused for other purposes. It should work

with most forms of traffic push buttons. 3ft reach might be a bit

limiting. There are various telescoping poles available for window

washing and ceiling dusting that have a longer reach. Something like

this:

http://www.lsdinc.com/installation/7305/Grabbit---



My bike is legally a vehicle, and vehicle detectors should be

adjusted to detect it.



Good point. When not being used as a traffic button pusher extension,

the telescoping pole could also help you assert your rights as a lance

for jousting with the drivers of automobiles, trucks, buses, and

trains that might be misinterpreting the laws.


I could use one of those to get to the crosswalk buttons on the Springwater Corridor. https://www.flickr.com/photos/bikepo...-nWk2ez-65RSfK

-- Jay Beattie.

Is that to keep the button above the high water mark?
Mark J.

On Saturday, October 11, 2014 4:39:58 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, October 11, 2014 3:01:40 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Fri, 10 Oct 2014 21:02:31 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski wrote:







Other technical people with whom I've corresponded have claimed that the wheels

of a bike are what are normally detected. Some have helped traffic engineers

calibrate the loop detectors, by supplying a 20" wheel rim mounted on a

piece of wood. Sensitivity is increased until that single spokeless rim

is detected. I think they were using an aluminum rim, but I'm not sure.



Did you by chance try the same test with a "split" aluminum rim? If

what you say is true, then it's not so much the permeability of the

material that's important, but rather that the bicycle provides a

"shorted turn" loop to detune the vehicle detection coil. If that

were true, then one should get exactly the same effect using a loop of

light #14 AWG copper house wire, as one would with a proper aluminum

rim. That would be interesting to try. Just a loop of copper or

aluminum wire carried on the bicycle to trigger the traffic signal.



That would be useful for non-metallic frames.



Well, I haven't tried the trick at all. I read where an online friend of mine

used the rim-on-a-board to help a traffic engineer calibrate loops.



As Andrew noted, one could have a loop of copper wire between the rim strip

and the rim itself to trigger the loop. Sounds reasonable. I suspect it

might make no difference for most bikes, though, in that the aluminum rims

already do that job. Guys with composite rims - and no aluminum braking

surfaces - might find it helps.



But I wonder, if one loop is good, would multiple loops be better? Suppose

we put ten turns of thin, insulated wire under the rim strip, with the

ends electrically connected? Would that make the bike more detectable?



As I've said, as an ME I never had to take Field Theory, so all this is

like witchcraft to me. Bat wings? Lizards tongue? 10 turns of wire?



- Frank Krygowski

HOT AIR