question about climbing

On 2018-07-30 11:33, Duane wrote:
On 30/07/2018 12:47 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, July 30, 2018 at 8:27:34 AM UTC-7, duane wrote:
On 30/07/2018 11:06 AM, wrote:
On Monday, July 30, 2018 at 12:34:18 PM UTC+2, Duane wrote:
wrote:
On Sunday, July 29, 2018 at 12:33:43 PM UTC+2, Duane wrote:
wrote:
On Saturday, July 28, 2018 at 9:08:33 PM UTC+2, Duane wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 27, 2018 at 2:39:21 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-27 14:29, Theodore Heise wrote:
snip

Over 300 bucks! In my book that is pricey. I think I'll
continue living
not knowing what grade I just cycled up.


The price of power meters has been dropping, and Garmin is
feeling
pressure from Stages, Wahoo and others. For $300 you can now
get a 500
series Garmin with heart rate, maps, GPS and endless data to
peruse at
home. I don't have so much as a cyclometer on any bike right
now, but I
do scavenge info from my friends who are fully instrumented.
You might
like the map function and accurate data if you're a
data-driven person.
You can use iPhone apps, too, but you have sketchy cell
service and a
satellite uplink is just what you need. I think there is
mountain lion
radar and a automatic electronic defibrillator function, too.

-- Jay Beattie.


You can do most of that with a phone app now. The only problem
is the
phone isn’t really visible in sunlight so run time info like
speed and
cadence isn’t great. But you can get a Wahoo head unit with
lcd display
and connect it to RideWithGPS. Not sure if it does altitude or
grade but
it’s a cheap option.

I have an Garmin 800 but if it ever dies I will look around for
options.
Some friends have 520s but they don’t do the mapping like the
800/1000.
Though they do give you turn by turn which is what I mostly use
anyway.


--
duane

If I lose mine today, I order I new one tomorrow. GPS is the best
invention for the bike (and car) after clipless pedals and
brifters. Some
of my riding buddies use their phones and the Strava app to
record their
rides. The elevation gain is always way off. Crap.

Lou


I wasn’t sure the Strava app even did elevation gain. I meant
there are
cheaper options now like Wahoo. I’m a bit annoyed with my 800
because of
some bugs with the turn by turn and general navigation. Some
seem to be
fixed in the 1000 firmware but Garmin stopped supporting firmware
upgrades
for the 800.

FWIW the Edge 800 that I have isn’t great on elevation gain
either. It
gets it close enough if it’s clear weather.

--
duane

The Edge 800 has a barometric altitude measurement no? That is as
good as
it gets. Any other doesn't perform better in rapid changing weather
conditions. The altitude measurements can be corrected based on
the GPS
positions with one mouse click in many analyse programs/apps with
free
NASA/Spaceshuttle data. The Edge 1030, which I use can do that while
riding with an IQ connect app/add on. You have to have a coupled
smart
phone though. I was on a trip through the Alpes a couple of weeks
ago and
again I was surprised by the accuracy of the measured altitude
every time
I had a reference. We had no thunderstorms though. If Garmin
brings out a
new model you have to wait a half a year before all the software
bugs are
out; firmware update every week.. After that they never let me down.
Their turn by turn navigation, although not perfect, is the
benchmark.

Lou


I contacted Garmin about the turn by turn issues. They suggested that
instead of just copying the TCX file to the newfiles folder on the
800 I
import it as a course in Garmin Connect. Then use that to send it
to the
device. It ends up in the newfiles folder but as a binary file so
I can’t
really see what they did.

I’ve tried that for the last couple weeks and it seems to be
working well.
I compare it to the TBT with RideWithGPS on my phone and it’s spot
on. A
bit inconvenient but if it works...

Thunderstorms are when the elevation is the least accurate. I did
a race a
few years ago with 1800 m. It was raining off and on for most of
the ride.
The Garmin reported 2200 meters of climbs. Setting the tag to
adjust that
brought it to 1850. I prefer to believe the Garmin though. :-)


--
duane

I was caught in a thunderstorm once in the mountains. According to
the height measurement of my Garmin I fell of a cliff.

lol
My preferred way to navigate on my Garmin 810 was load the route as
track, make the track always visible on the map as a colored line
and I keep myself on that colored line as I ride along. Same as you
would do with a paper map and less disturbing as turn by turn
navigation. On my 1030 they improved turn by turn navigation so I
use it more often now.


I was switching to the map when I got closer than 100 m and there was
not TBT but that was annoying. I'm more concerned with my speed,
cadence, grade, heart rate etc. and I can't put all of that on the map
page so I use the TBT.

I saw that the newer devices can use "FIT" courses now that are supposed
to be better for TBT. At any rate, this seems better now importing the
file as Garmin recommended.

If I can just get it to stop trying to route me back to the beginning if
I'm not 1/2km out when I start I would be more or less happy with this.

I use the Nikki Terpstra power-meter:
http://www.velonews.com/2018/04/news...lassics_462590


“This is my power meter,� he said, holding up the results sheet. “I
know that if I go 50kph, they will [not] catch me. I know if I am
going 39kph, I need to speed up."


Yikes. I rode with a guy like that. Once. I am too old for that.


I'm going to appropriate one of my son's spare Garmins and a
power-meter just to see how bad I suck.

This weekend was a fair amount of climbing -- maybe 9K feet, about 6K
on Sunday over too much distance and too much heat. I was hearing
Joerg in my head -- which sounds like Arnold Schwarzenegger or Angela
Merkel, something German or Austrian -- telling me to drink water, and
yet for 75-80 miles (no cyclometer, but I know the route) in peak
95F, I went through two bottles and a Cliff Bar and could barely stand
up when I got home.


Don't do that too often.

http://www.nuuvohealth.com/dehydrati...c-dehydration/


Did you forget the growler? Seriously if I start hearing Joerg in my
head in the hills I'm stopping and calling a cab. ...


Last time a riding buddy and I had a homebrew IPA way out there on an
MTB trail. Nice and cold from my old office thermos. In the wilderness
that's priceless.


... Delirium is a dangerous thing around bobcats.


They seem to have their own brewery.

https://www.facebook.com/bobcatbrewingcompany/


Another climbing tip, think about the route and sun exposure. I would
have needed a whole lot more water if much of my climbing had not been
under fir canopy. If I were on one of those brown hills in Ca., I
would have fried and died.


That's where I am riding most of the time.


Sometime the shade masks the heat. I did some hills a couple of weeks
ago and it was 35-36C. But it was through a park and well shaded. Not
much, maybe 500 meters. After the hills there's a 15 minute ferry ride
to get to the road back. Sitting on the ferry I thought I would pass out.

The low point of the trip was getting stung by a yellow-jacket on the
way home for no particular reason. I was just riding along, and it
stung me through my jersey -- "hey, what did I ever do to you." As I
was getting stung and swatting furiously at the side of my jersey,
this guy rides by, and I feel compelled to match his pace -- but not
draft because that would be dopey. So I TT for 15 miles on tired legs
on a flat-ish MUP, which was really stupid. And then its a f******
climb through the cemetery to get home.
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7406/...faabe6ef97.jpg

Tip number two, when you're climbing up the big climb, think about how
much energy you will need to get home, particularly if there are hills
on the way home after the big climb, like one of those saw-tooth
climbs where you have to climb to descend. Tip number three -- do not
empty the tank five miles from home.


If you do, just walk it up the hills. I've done that. Big deal.
Sometimes that's actually enjoyable, to the point where I walked my MTB
without being tired just to hear the birds chirping.


... I know I've ridden smart when
riding the last climb home I'm not creeping along.


The day after the park I just mentioned there was another ride with
1800m and one 18-20% section. I blew it off and did some flats. I'll
do it in the fall when my tires aren't melting on the tarmac.


Or as a riding friend once said "It's suposed to be fun, not a race".

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-30 11:33, Duane wrote:
snip

The day after the park I just mentioned there was another ride with
1800m and one 18-20% section. I blew it off and did some flats. I'll
do it in the fall when my tires aren't melting on the tarmac.


Or as a riding friend once said "It's suposed to be fun, not a race".


Sometimes a race is fun. Heat stroke not so much though.

--
duane

On 2018-07-31 15:59, Duane wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-30 11:33, Duane wrote:
snip

The day after the park I just mentioned there was another ride with
1800m and one 18-20% section. I blew it off and did some flats. I'll
do it in the fall when my tires aren't melting on the tarmac.


Or as a riding friend once said "It's suposed to be fun, not a race".


Sometimes a race is fun. Heat stroke not so much though.


I have heard riders admirably mention "Man, this guy must have an
impressive pain threshold!" when they saw someone steaming up a hill
with obvious pain expressions in his face. Not my turf, at all.

Often I have to remind reluctant riders that I'll wait for them if they
are slower, that it's really not a big deal. Many are shy about riding
with someone else if they have the slightest concern about being a
little slower or not being able to take the heat very well. It shouldn't
be that way.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I don't think many riders plan to stop for a break on the way up, unless perhaps to fetch water or to eat something. Nevertheless, especially when riding an unknown route, it may well happen to feel like, or even to need, stopping to regain breath.
Through the years I have done quite a bit of bike touring on the Alps, almost always backpacking, and certainly it did happen that I had to take a break somewhere.
No shame, I never intended it be a competition.

Hard to believe but once I had to halt on the way down!
I had gone up to Passo Gavia, from the Ponte di Legno side, without ever stopping. At that time, some forty years ago, the road, not paved yet, was very rough. It used to be serviced a bit only when the Giro would pass there.
On the way down, back to Santa Apollonia, it was a lot more unpleasant and tiring. I flagged a car and asked to take me and my bike effortlessly down.

Sergio (Pisa)

On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 1:15:23 PM UTC+2, wrote:
I don't think many riders plan to stop for a break on the way up, unless perhaps to fetch water or to eat something. Nevertheless, especially when riding an unknown route, it may well happen to feel like, or even to need, stopping to regain breath.
Through the years I have done quite a bit of bike touring on the Alps, almost always backpacking, and certainly it did happen that I had to take a break somewhere.
No shame, I never intended it be a competition.

Hard to believe but once I had to halt on the way down!
I had gone up to Passo Gavia, from the Ponte di Legno side, without ever stopping.

Hat off when you did that backpacking. That is a hard climb from the Ponte di Legno.

At that time, some forty years ago, the road, not paved yet, was very
rough. It used to be serviced a bit only when the Giro would pass there.
On the way down, back to Santa Apollonia, it was a lot more unpleasant and tiring. I flagged a car and asked to take me and my bike effortlessly down.

Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-27 14:29, Theodore Heise wrote:
On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 14:22:43 -0700,
Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-27 14:07, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 27, 2018 at 12:17:46 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-22 11:33, wrote:

[...]

... Any climbing experts in this group.

I am certainly not one. To me climbs are just a necessary
evil of living in a hilly area. It's always a net 1200ft
coming back from the valley with lots of ups and downs in
between. Unfortunately it is not always possible to let'er
rip on the downhills to gain momentum.

You should get a Garmin or ride with someone who has one to
see what the real elevation gain is between Sacto and Cameron
Park. Saw-tooth climbs count extra, probably 50%.

Good idea. This weekend I'll be riding with someone who has one
of those fancy GPS-driven "bicycle computers". Maybe it has
grade measurement, I'll ask him.

I use a Garmin Edge 500, not too pricey (nor big) and includes a
barometer. It can display grade on the fly, though it's not
always terribly accurate. On sustained climbs, it usually settles
in to something that is pretty close to real.


https://www.amazon.com/Garmin-Heart-...dp/B010SDBFIE/

Over 300 bucks! In my book that is pricey. I think I'll continue living
not knowing what grade I just cycled up.


I did 1,200 feet of climbing in about three or so miles...

That works out to a little under 8% constant grade--very
respectable!


It is.

Next week I'll have to go up something that probably does this in less
than two miles, on dirt with loose gravel. Not looking forward to that
section of trail except on the way back when we can bomb down those
switchbacks. Good thing is that my MTB has a granny gear.


You can use sites such as www.strava.com to see climbs in your area, and
average gradients, peak grades aren’t terribly accurate, as you’d expect.

Roger Merriman

Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-29 03:33, Duane wrote:
wrote:
On Saturday, July 28, 2018 at 9:08:33 PM UTC+2, Duane wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 27, 2018 at 2:39:21 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-27 14:29, Theodore Heise wrote:
snip

Over 300 bucks! In my book that is pricey. I think I'll continue living
not knowing what grade I just cycled up.


The price of power meters has been dropping, and Garmin is feeling
pressure from Stages, Wahoo and others. For $300 you can now get a 500
series Garmin with heart rate, maps, GPS and endless data to peruse at
home. I don't have so much as a cyclometer on any bike right now, but I
do scavenge info from my friends who are fully instrumented. You might
like the map function and accurate data if you're a data-driven person.
You can use iPhone apps, too, but you have sketchy cell service and a
satellite uplink is just what you need. I think there is mountain lion
radar and a automatic electronic defibrillator function, too.

-- Jay Beattie.


You can do most of that with a phone app now. The only problem is the
phone isn’t really visible in sunlight so run time info like speed and
cadence isn’t great. But you can get a Wahoo head unit with lcd display
and connect it to RideWithGPS. Not sure if it does altitude or grade but
it’s a cheap option.

I have an Garmin 800 but if it ever dies I will look around for options.
Some friends have 520s but they don’t do the mapping like the 800/1000.
Though they do give you turn by turn which is what I mostly use anyway.


--
duane

If I lose mine today, I order I new one tomorrow. GPS is the best
invention for the bike (and car) after clipless pedals and brifters. Some
of my riding buddies use their phones and the Strava app to record their
rides. The elevation gain is always way off. Crap.

Lou


I wasn’t sure the Strava app even did elevation gain. I meant there are
cheaper options now like Wahoo. I’m a bit annoyed with my 800 because of
some bugs with the turn by turn and general navigation. Some seem to be
fixed in the 1000 firmware but Garmin stopped supporting firmware upgrades
for the 800.

FWIW the Edge 800 that I have isn’t great on elevation gain either. It
gets it close enough if it’s clear weather.


Strava does eleveation. A riding buddy uses Strava and it seems to be ok
in accuracy. Not great but ok. However, one needs a smart phone which I
don't have and don't need.


I assume you mean the app on the phone? I do have a smart phone but since I
have a Garmin it’s not needed and I don’t use it to record etc, since the
Garmin is better.

Roger Merriman

wrote:
On Friday, July 27, 2018 at 3:54:33 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 27, 2018 at 3:05:39 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, July 27, 2018 at 2:07:59 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 27, 2018 at 12:17:46 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-22 11:33, wrote:
I live in the flatlands and not a great climber but pretty solid
rider. I have done some climbs according to various categories that
are 3 and 4 rated. I got them ok on a 34-28 but not just easy. So I
see the Alpe D'Huez and the rating plus going up 8 % for over 8 miles
seems a bit much for me to comprehend.

Do most mortals who do the Alpe D"Huez go up without stopping during
the climb?
... One climb I do is overall about 6% and it goes on for 1.2
miles. The very last section gets to 9% or about maybe 1/4 mile. I
tell you I can get up no problem but I just cannot see keep that up
for another 7 miles. I am pretty spent the last 200 feet.


I hate climbs. The other thing is, I never know how steep something is
because there aren't any signs and even topo maps are not very useful
for finding out.


So I assume those climbing these on tours and such are pretty decent
cyclist but what gearing. Would a 34-32 really make it that much
easier to manage than say a 34-28 that I use now.


Every tooth more in back or less in front helps. Unfortuntely my current
road bike is limited to 42-32. When I was young and also weighed less I
could scale all hills with 42-21 but that was more than 30 years ago. It
is probably the reason why to this day I ride with much lower cadence
than others. Which tends to make bottom bracket bearings suffer. The BB
in my road bike has maybe 2000-3000 miles on it and already starts to
make clicking noises, despite picking an expensive one.


... They say sitting is
the best way to climb but I guess I just do not do enough of it to
really tell. I do know that when I am around more hilly terrain after
a few days I get better at climbing.


Same here but you have to keep at it at least once a week. Climbing
endurance is quickly lost.


Does the average cyclist planning to climb something like the Alpe D
Huez factor in a break of a few minutes at some point or points.


For me that entirely depends on whether there is a good saloon along the
way 8-)


... Any climbing experts in this group.


I am certainly not one. To me climbs are just a necessary evil of living
in a hilly area. It's always a net 1200ft coming back from the valley
with lots of ups and downs in between. Unfortunately it is not always
possible to let'er rip on the downhills to gain momentum.

You should get a Garmin or ride with someone who has one to see what
the real elevation gain is between Sacto and Cameron Park. Saw-tooth
climbs count extra, probably 50%.

I did 1,200 feet of climbing in about three or so miles to get home
after work last night, most of that after stopping at a work shindig
in the lower West Hills. 16% climb to get to the gathering, then after
leaving, about a 45% climb on stairs to get to a connector street.
https://tinyurl.com/yc5pukmy And then various grades for the next few
miles and then down to my neighborhood. Climbing advice: don't sit
around eating pizza and beer and gin-and-tonics and then go climb.
That's why I don't get the whole sitting around at pubs thing. I lose
all desire to ride after drinking.

-- Jay Beattie.

OSHA approved stairways are 32 degrees max which is 62.5%. A 45%
stairway is about 24 degrees. VERY few people can climb a 23% climb (13
degrees). I can only climb 23% in a 30/28 as long as it isn't more than
a block long and I'm fresh.


We just have been watching the Tour de France where all of the
strongest riders in the world are straining in low gears to go over 12%
and you're making comments as if you could ride up a stairway.

No Tom, I got off my bike and walked an actual staircase. Look at the
picture. We have those in Portland. Some are slippery wooden structures:
https://tinyurl.com/y8wtmfoh And some are nice, tidy cement
stairs.http://gentleartofwandering.com/wp-c...2-1024x768.jpg
https://tinyurl.com/y7jk86ym Even in my 'hood which is at a lower
elevation, my most frequent route home is bisected by a half-mile stair
case. Frisky pedestrians can beat me walking because the road zig-zags
up a scarp. It's embarrassing. I have to hit the gas to beat them.
Here's the start of the stairs: https://tinyurl.com/yb5uul6c I ride up
that broken-up goat road.
Here's where the stairs hit the top, next to that house.
https://tinyurl.com/y9qsv885 I've done the hike-a-bike, and its not
really much fun. I prefer the road, although continuing on my ride home,
I do have to climb some stairs -- but I ride the dirt path next to the
stairs until I stall out or lose traction, which usually happens at
about the same point. It's tricky getting off my bike without slipping down the hill.


-- Jay Beattie.

I was being sarcastic about how lightly you treat grades. I am now over
80,000 ft for the year where I get in 2200 to 4,000 feet in a ride all
over 6%. I don't find climbing to be easy and it's hardly something to
talk about as if it is. When I went down to Phoenix most of the people
down there were having problems with overpasses. There was a 5% rise on
one route and everyone was down into a 34/32.

Sure you can climb but it requires a lot of practice. And you speaking of
going up steep climbs half lit doesn't impress me that you're doing much climbing.

When Chris Froome is turning purple on a 12% grade people ought to be
more respectful rather than talking about a 24% grade as if it's no big deal.


Pros are notorious reluctant to use newer tech, and will be going up a lot
faster than us morals, most roadies are woefully over geared take a MTB up
a steep road climb and the gearing totally flattens it, just sit and look
at the views while you inch up!

Roger Merriman

On 2018-08-02 07:39, Roger Merriman wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-29 03:33, Duane wrote:
wrote:
On Saturday, July 28, 2018 at 9:08:33 PM UTC+2, Duane wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 27, 2018 at 2:39:21 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-27 14:29, Theodore Heise wrote:
snip

Over 300 bucks! In my book that is pricey. I think I'll continue living
not knowing what grade I just cycled up.


The price of power meters has been dropping, and Garmin is feeling
pressure from Stages, Wahoo and others. For $300 you can now get a 500
series Garmin with heart rate, maps, GPS and endless data to peruse at
home. I don't have so much as a cyclometer on any bike right now, but I
do scavenge info from my friends who are fully instrumented. You might
like the map function and accurate data if you're a data-driven person.
You can use iPhone apps, too, but you have sketchy cell service and a
satellite uplink is just what you need. I think there is mountain lion
radar and a automatic electronic defibrillator function, too.

-- Jay Beattie.


You can do most of that with a phone app now. The only problem is the
phone isn’t really visible in sunlight so run time info like speed and
cadence isn’t great. But you can get a Wahoo head unit with lcd display
and connect it to RideWithGPS. Not sure if it does altitude or grade but
it’s a cheap option.

I have an Garmin 800 but if it ever dies I will look around for options.
Some friends have 520s but they don’t do the mapping like the 800/1000.
Though they do give you turn by turn which is what I mostly use anyway.


--
duane

If I lose mine today, I order I new one tomorrow. GPS is the best
invention for the bike (and car) after clipless pedals and brifters. Some
of my riding buddies use their phones and the Strava app to record their
rides. The elevation gain is always way off. Crap.

Lou


I wasn’t sure the Strava app even did elevation gain. I meant there are
cheaper options now like Wahoo. I’m a bit annoyed with my 800 because of
some bugs with the turn by turn and general navigation. Some seem to be
fixed in the 1000 firmware but Garmin stopped supporting firmware upgrades
for the 800.

FWIW the Edge 800 that I have isn’t great on elevation gain either. It
gets it close enough if it’s clear weather.


Strava does eleveation. A riding buddy uses Strava and it seems to be ok
in accuracy. Not great but ok. However, one needs a smart phone which I
don't have and don't need.


I assume you mean the app on the phone? I do have a smart phone but since I
have a Garmin it’s not needed and I don’t use it to record etc, since the
Garmin is better.


Yes, on the phone. It works ok. Strava has some weirdnesses that are
related to how they wrote the software. For example, when calculating
average speed it does not deduct times that are clearly breaks such as
when eating a sandwich at a trail bench or fixing a nasty chain suck
like I had one happen yesterday.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2018-08-02 07:39, Roger Merriman wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-27 14:29, Theodore Heise wrote:
On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 14:22:43 -0700,
Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-27 14:07, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 27, 2018 at 12:17:46 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-22 11:33, wrote:

[...]

... Any climbing experts in this group.

I am certainly not one. To me climbs are just a necessary
evil of living in a hilly area. It's always a net 1200ft
coming back from the valley with lots of ups and downs in
between. Unfortunately it is not always possible to let'er
rip on the downhills to gain momentum.

You should get a Garmin or ride with someone who has one to
see what the real elevation gain is between Sacto and Cameron
Park. Saw-tooth climbs count extra, probably 50%.

Good idea. This weekend I'll be riding with someone who has one
of those fancy GPS-driven "bicycle computers". Maybe it has
grade measurement, I'll ask him.

I use a Garmin Edge 500, not too pricey (nor big) and includes a
barometer. It can display grade on the fly, though it's not
always terribly accurate. On sustained climbs, it usually settles
in to something that is pretty close to real.


https://www.amazon.com/Garmin-Heart-...dp/B010SDBFIE/

Over 300 bucks! In my book that is pricey. I think I'll continue living
not knowing what grade I just cycled up.


I did 1,200 feet of climbing in about three or so miles...

That works out to a little under 8% constant grade--very
respectable!


It is.

Next week I'll have to go up something that probably does this in less
than two miles, on dirt with loose gravel. Not looking forward to that
section of trail except on the way back when we can bomb down those
switchbacks. Good thing is that my MTB has a granny gear.


You can use sites such as www.strava.com to see climbs in your area, and
average gradients, peak grades aren’t terribly accurate, as you’d expect.


How does one find that information about a certain grade without being a
member there? Or maybe with being a member. Yesterday I asked a riding
buddy who has a smart phone to sign up while he was over for dinner. If
that's not possible we'll just have to ride these grades again now that
he is signed up.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/