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  #21  
Old September 22nd 17, 03:52 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 5,260
Default Build it and they won't come

On 9/21/2017 3:35 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I don't know what went wrong in Stevenage. In any other town, such
dedicated bicycle paths would be infested with joggers, baby
carriages, radio controlled racers, skateboarders, push carts,
electric powered assault transports etc, which suggests that nobody is
using the paths using any means of transport. That's too strange to
not have an obvious cause. The paths might be going from nowhere to
nowhere, the weather is chronically uncooperative, there are
undesirables lurking along the paths, or something else that might
discourage its use.


It's incorrect to say that in every other town, the paths would be
heavily used. Stevenage is not the only "new town" that was built in
Britain with designed-in bike facilities. Milton Keynes is similar, with
similar failure of bike mode share. There are others as well.

Also, don't judge the quality of an idea by its first attempt.


Again, this wasn't the only attempt in Britain or elsewhere. And on a
smaller scale, one can look at lesser networks of bike lanes or bike
paths in many other towns and see very little use. One town I visit at
least weekly has bike lanes on at least three of the four main highways
approaching the town. (They are two-lane highways.) I've driven there
regularly for probably 8 years. In all those years, I've seen a total of
perhaps 15 cyclists on those bike lanes.

I think that in those U.S. cities where cycling mode share is a bit more
than 2%, the main factor is simply fashion. The city itself, for
whatever reason, attracts a population tuned to trendiness, and
bicycling somehow becomes a fashionable trend. (Remember that San
Francisco had a big surge in bike mode share during a time when a
lawsuit prevented installation of ANY bike facilities.)

In other places (like Amsterdam and Copenhagen) bike mode share is
helped by a cluster of other influences: flat terrain, mild climate,
short travel distances, etc. coupled with a history of utility biking.
And to further boost bike share (as well as transit share) the
government takes a critical step: they dissuade motoring.

If you don't dissuade motoring, people will buy cars, and people who buy
cars will drive them.


--
- Frank Krygowski
Ads
  #22  
Old September 22nd 17, 04:21 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,524
Default Build it and they won't come

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 18:57:12 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

But another factor is that even within a city there are
neighborhoods with virtually zero new bike sales and others
with very heavy purchases year after year.


Sure, but I think I can make a fairly simple assumption. 13 bicycle
dealers in a town of 85,000 is going to take some level of sales to
keep them in business. The sales are not going to be uniform in both
number of bicycles or gross revenue. I don't know exactly what those
numbers might be, but with 13 stores, it must be substantial enough to
fill the local infrastructure with bicycles, and not produce a ghost
town devoid of bicycles. People ride those bicycles somewhere. If
not the dedicated cycleways, then where do they ride?

The Stevenage bicycle paths were built in the late 1970's making them
about 37 years old.
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/sep/19/britains-1960s-cycling-revolution-flopped-stevenage
http://www.stevenage.gov.uk/52710/
http://www.stevenage.gov.uk/content/15953/16118/33198/Stevenage-Cycling-Map-with-Key.pdf
However, there are older dedicated bicycle paths in UK such as those
built in the 1930's:
"A 5-minute journey on a kerb-protected British cycleway ... built in
1937"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIGM6yVVrkg (4:53)
So maybe the problem is not unique to Stevenage?


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #23  
Old September 22nd 17, 04:33 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,524
Default Build it and they won't come

On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 07:26:07 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Comparing traffic between Singapore and Smog Angeles:
https://www.numbeo.com/traffic/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2 =Singapore&city1=Los+Angeles%2C+CA&city2=Singapore
Bicycle as the main means of transportation:
L.A. = 2.90%, Singapore = 2.35%

From the section "Average when primary using Bike" it would seem that
L.A. bicycle riders use cars, trains, and buses on part of their
rides, while Singapore riders use none of these facilities.


You apparently missed the part where it said that:
Bus/Trolleybus (LA) 2.90% (SNG)29.41%
and:
Train/Metro (LA)1.45% (SNG)28.24%

Or to put it another way, 57.65% of Singapore commuters use public
transportation.


Sure. L.A. is a disaster from the standpoint of public transit. I
used to live there. It's also much larger than Singapore making a car
a necessity.

Under the same "Main Means of Transportation" heading:
Car (LA) 79.71% (SNG) 17.65%
I'm not sure what "main" really means. Is it the sole means of
transport meaning that one does not own an automobile or bicycle? Or
is it just which means of transport used most often or for the longest
distance? I couldn't find a definition on the web site.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #24  
Old September 22nd 17, 05:44 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,367
Default Build it and they won't come

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 20:33:12 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 07:26:07 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Comparing traffic between Singapore and Smog Angeles:
https://www.numbeo.com/traffic/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2 =Singapore&city1=Los+Angeles%2C+CA&city2=Singapore
Bicycle as the main means of transportation:
L.A. = 2.90%, Singapore = 2.35%

From the section "Average when primary using Bike" it would seem that
L.A. bicycle riders use cars, trains, and buses on part of their
rides, while Singapore riders use none of these facilities.


You apparently missed the part where it said that:
Bus/Trolleybus (LA) 2.90% (SNG)29.41%
and:
Train/Metro (LA)1.45% (SNG)28.24%

Or to put it another way, 57.65% of Singapore commuters use public
transportation.


Sure. L.A. is a disaster from the standpoint of public transit. I
used to live there. It's also much larger than Singapore making a car
a necessity.


Way back in the very late 1960's and very early 1970's I lived in
Riverside and I remember that L.A. in at least two elections proposed
a bond issue to fund a proper public transportation system... which
the voters turned down twice.

After all, it would have resulted in an increase in taxes to redeem
the bonds and to pay the interest.


Under the same "Main Means of Transportation" heading:
Car (LA) 79.71% (SNG) 17.65%
I'm not sure what "main" really means. Is it the sole means of
transport meaning that one does not own an automobile or bicycle? Or
is it just which means of transport used most often or for the longest
distance? I couldn't find a definition on the web site.


Having lived in Singapore for a number of years I can assure you that
the bulk of the population goes to work by public transportation which
in Singapore is comprised of bus routes and a subway (SMRT) system
that allows travel over the entire island. In addition there are very
large numbers of taxi's.

Additionally there is essentially no parking on the streets in the
business districts and parking lots are monitored by the police and
failure to pay the parking fee... in the range of $1.00 an hour is
rather severely dwelt with, a $50 fine for first offense.


--
Cheers,

John B.

  #25  
Old September 22nd 17, 02:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,923
Default Build it and they won't come

On 9/21/2017 11:44 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 20:33:12 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 07:26:07 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Comparing traffic between Singapore and Smog Angeles:
https://www.numbeo.com/traffic/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2 =Singapore&city1=Los+Angeles%2C+CA&city2=Singapore
Bicycle as the main means of transportation:
L.A. = 2.90%, Singapore = 2.35%

From the section "Average when primary using Bike" it would seem that
L.A. bicycle riders use cars, trains, and buses on part of their
rides, while Singapore riders use none of these facilities.


You apparently missed the part where it said that:
Bus/Trolleybus (LA) 2.90% (SNG)29.41%
and:
Train/Metro (LA)1.45% (SNG)28.24%

Or to put it another way, 57.65% of Singapore commuters use public
transportation.


Sure. L.A. is a disaster from the standpoint of public transit. I
used to live there. It's also much larger than Singapore making a car
a necessity.


Way back in the very late 1960's and very early 1970's I lived in
Riverside and I remember that L.A. in at least two elections proposed
a bond issue to fund a proper public transportation system... which
the voters turned down twice.

After all, it would have resulted in an increase in taxes to redeem
the bonds and to pay the interest.


Under the same "Main Means of Transportation" heading:
Car (LA) 79.71% (SNG) 17.65%
I'm not sure what "main" really means. Is it the sole means of
transport meaning that one does not own an automobile or bicycle? Or
is it just which means of transport used most often or for the longest
distance? I couldn't find a definition on the web site.


Having lived in Singapore for a number of years I can assure you that
the bulk of the population goes to work by public transportation which
in Singapore is comprised of bus routes and a subway (SMRT) system
that allows travel over the entire island. In addition there are very
large numbers of taxi's.

Additionally there is essentially no parking on the streets in the
business districts and parking lots are monitored by the police and
failure to pay the parking fee... in the range of $1.00 an hour is
rather severely dwelt with, a $50 fine for first offense.



Singapore wouldn't know an authoritarian regime if it bit
them in the ass:

http://theexpiredmeter.com/2008/09/p...ng-in-chicago/

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #26  
Old September 23rd 17, 03:43 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,367
Default Build it and they won't come

On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 08:22:52 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 9/21/2017 11:44 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 20:33:12 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 07:26:07 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Comparing traffic between Singapore and Smog Angeles:
https://www.numbeo.com/traffic/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2 =Singapore&city1=Los+Angeles%2C+CA&city2=Singapore
Bicycle as the main means of transportation:
L.A. = 2.90%, Singapore = 2.35%

From the section "Average when primary using Bike" it would seem that
L.A. bicycle riders use cars, trains, and buses on part of their
rides, while Singapore riders use none of these facilities.

You apparently missed the part where it said that:
Bus/Trolleybus (LA) 2.90% (SNG)29.41%
and:
Train/Metro (LA)1.45% (SNG)28.24%

Or to put it another way, 57.65% of Singapore commuters use public
transportation.

Sure. L.A. is a disaster from the standpoint of public transit. I
used to live there. It's also much larger than Singapore making a car
a necessity.


Way back in the very late 1960's and very early 1970's I lived in
Riverside and I remember that L.A. in at least two elections proposed
a bond issue to fund a proper public transportation system... which
the voters turned down twice.

After all, it would have resulted in an increase in taxes to redeem
the bonds and to pay the interest.


Under the same "Main Means of Transportation" heading:
Car (LA) 79.71% (SNG) 17.65%
I'm not sure what "main" really means. Is it the sole means of
transport meaning that one does not own an automobile or bicycle? Or
is it just which means of transport used most often or for the longest
distance? I couldn't find a definition on the web site.


Having lived in Singapore for a number of years I can assure you that
the bulk of the population goes to work by public transportation which
in Singapore is comprised of bus routes and a subway (SMRT) system
that allows travel over the entire island. In addition there are very
large numbers of taxi's.

Additionally there is essentially no parking on the streets in the
business districts and parking lots are monitored by the police and
failure to pay the parking fee... in the range of $1.00 an hour is
rather severely dwelt with, a $50 fine for first offense.



Singapore wouldn't know an authoritarian regime if it bit
them in the ass:

http://theexpiredmeter.com/2008/09/p...ng-in-chicago/


I think that "city sticker" is a great idea. How about a "bicycle
sticker" to defray the cost of building these bicycle lanes I read
about.

--
Cheers,

John B.

  #27  
Old September 24th 17, 02:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
David Scheidt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,177
Default Build it and they won't come

AMuzi wrote:

:http://theexpiredmeter.com/2008/09/p...ng-in-chicago/


That's horribly out of date. All of the fines and fees have gone up,
but the restrictions on parking non-commerical trucks on residential
streets is gone.



--
sig 106
  #28  
Old September 24th 17, 03:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,923
Default Build it and they won't come

On 9/24/2017 8:48 AM, David Scheidt wrote:
AMuzi wrote:

:http://theexpiredmeter.com/2008/09/p...ng-in-chicago/


That's horribly out of date. All of the fines and fees have gone up,
but the restrictions on parking non-commerical trucks on residential
streets is gone.




Thanks for that. I know a little about this from customers
and relatives in The City That Doesn't Work but that link
was all I could find in a quick search.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #29  
Old September 24th 17, 05:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,260
Default Build it and they won't come

On 9/24/2017 9:48 AM, David Scheidt wrote:
AMuzi wrote:

:http://theexpiredmeter.com/2008/09/p...ng-in-chicago/


That's horribly out of date. All of the fines and fees have gone up,
but the restrictions on parking non-commerical trucks on residential
streets is gone.


OK, let's talk about parking on streets.

So when society builds a street, isn't it generally intended for the
movement of people and goods? So how is it that someone gets to store
their personal property on it for free?

And if that somehow makes sense, why is that permission limited only to
motor vehicles? If (say) a person moves out of one apartment but has to
wait a month before moving into his next apartment, why isn't he allowed
to store all his furniture in a "parking place"?

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #30  
Old September 25th 17, 12:10 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
David Scheidt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,177
Default Build it and they won't come

AMuzi wrote:
:On 9/24/2017 8:48 AM, David Scheidt wrote:
: AMuzi wrote:
:
: :http://theexpiredmeter.com/2008/09/p...ng-in-chicago/
:
:
: That's horribly out of date. All of the fines and fees have gone up,
: but the restrictions on parking non-commerical trucks on residential
: streets is gone.
:
:
:

:Thanks for that. I know a little about this from customers
:and relatives in The City That Doesn't Work but that link
:was all I could find in a quick search.

In my experience, most people parking illegally have made an economic
decision that the risk of getting caught is small enough that it's
cheaper to take it than to pay for legal parking. And given that I
could write 20 parking tickets on my ride to work, every day, they're
probably right.



--
sig 86
 




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