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Danny-boy flails some more! (was: Advice on a good hardtail.)
"Dan Volker" wrote in message ...
"Jonesy" wrote in message om... Which ones were those? Canondales, Specialized, Diamond Back What models? Mostly X-country ( 3 inch travel models) So, comparing all these different bikes, ones with completely different design purposes, really doesn't give you much of a broad base for discussing free-ride bikes. Got it. But I like the lame-ass barbs you try and stick onto the ends - they really make you look smart. LOL. Santa Cruz Blur, Intense Spyder. I didn't know these were long-travel free-ride style bikes. Hmmm. Most bikes I have ridden are 3 inch travel or less So, you really don't have a broad base of comparison. I see. that you have sufficient bike action input on rides to become aware of this flex There's motion in the rear of the bike. A bending moment that can be felt on the trail, that disrupts the bikes handling. and how could you distinguish such a frame behvior from all the other possibilities which could cause a bike to ride or corner in specific ways---bad tires being one example If two bikes have the same tires, then the tires should act the same, given approximately identical loads and pressures. That one's out, as I already explained. poorly set up shocks for a specific frame, as another Since the TALAS R was designed for the Liquid, specifically, and since the manual states exactly how to set it up for rider weight and desired travel characteristics, this one is just an exercise in straw-clutching. You have yet to explain how this effects the plane of motion from side-to-side. I'm sure several other possibilities could be considered as well. Indeed. Mostly, it seems that what we have here is one person, with a broad background in twisty, challenging singletrack, demoing a bunch of different free-ride bikes, vs. some flatlander know-it-all who tested one or two different bikes, and now thinks he's some sort of expert. I can live with that comparison. And after you have shown repeatedly that you have almost no awareness of whether you are riding a rockshox or a Manitou Bzzzt. I knew exactly what I was riding. Just because it wasn't the very same model as what you rode makes very little difference. Just because *you* claim some world of difference doesn't mean anything. Hell, your claims are frequently and hilariously debunked here. It also seems you have forgotten that the Liquid has huge leverage in its rocker arm Ooops, looks like you have a reading comprehension problem. LOL. Talk about not being able to keep things straight... Mating a shock to this that can be perfectly adjusted to your weight and riding style--and "is" perfectly adjusted, might be a better first step in looking for problems. The plane of motion that we are discussing has nothing to do with how the shock is performing. It could be completely locked out, and there would still be the same forces acting on the carbon stays and rocker arms. (More or less - the point at which the tires are on the dirt in the corner is where it moves laterally.) What have you said so far that would indicate that you had your rear shocks stet perfectly for you on the Liquid you rode? They don't need to be set up "perfectly." They need to be set up "close enough." If a bike doesn't operate well in "close enough", then it's **** and you need to find a better bike. Funny, the Specialized, Giant and Marin bikes worked just fine. Don't you find it odd that one bike was so poorly set up that it acted like ****, but the others were set up well enough to act great? Was that just purely by chance? As in every other claim you make, you destroy your crediblity by even suggesting it. And, how do you know that the Manitou 3 way SPV might just do a much better job of adjusting perfectly to your weight and riding style than the Rockshock? The adjustable-travel shock is a Fox TALAS R. What were you saying about not being able to keep stuff straight, again? LOL. (The fork was Rock Sux.) If it needs to be perfect to ride acceptably, that's a serious indictment of the bike. Period. [snip hilarious flailing] Danny, I set up the shock, according to what Trek said in the manual (it could have been the Fox manual - either way, it was for that shock, and that bike.) You're trying to say now that somehow, the SPV shock transforms this ****ty-ass flexy POS into a hardtail? Jeez - you accuse *me* of drug use? LMAO. Trek Liquid. That's the bike, right? Whether it's a 25 or a 30, you're just being dumb (redundancy, I know, I know...) The big leverage in the rocker arm, exagerates the importance of the correctly mated shock system BWAHAHAHAHAHA! If the rocker arm transmits force from anywhere, it should ONLY be in a vertical plane. The only difference, throughout the entire range of travel, is that the lateral forces become largest at the point where the rear hub is furthest toward the rear. In a well-designed bike, there should be very, very little lateral movement at any point in the travel, even if the shock was just a plain, vanilla coil shock. It might be boingy, spongy, and ill-suited toward your riding style, but the pivots, rockers shock and stays should not flex laterally. On the Liquid 25 and 50, where the travel stays 5 inches If you had been reading along with the rest of the class, you would have remembered that I fixed the travel at 5 inches, due to lack of sufficient ride height in the 3 and 4 inch settings. Flexy, fiddly travel adjust that wasn't worth anything - not confidence inspiring. Which does not exist on a 25. Check the website. Which makes exactly what difference in how flexy the bike is? You still haven't manged to explain that... You have no idea that flex in the frame is occuring. None of your hypotheses (except the tires) can be the cause, so we are left with tires and frame. Since the tires are out (same tires on Fuel 90, no apparent flex), that leaves the frame. Hmmm, and lets see - Liquids have this funky seatstay design - the stays are carbon. And are meant to flex. Gosh, these stays might not only flex in one axis, but also another (they are tubular, after all.) Naw, that can't be it - it's got to be some telescoping air-filled concentric metal cylinders that are causing all this flex. Yeah, sure. You can't look down and see the chain stays bending Those aluminum stays better not be bending... this is just your guess about what is wrong with your riding experience. And it sounds like a pretty lazy guess. LOL. More irony from someone who obviously knows not one damn thing about anything he says. Hmmm, maybe you don't know everything about how every LBS specs, loans, test-rides, or prices their bikes, huh? Trek dealers are not supposed to be so incompetent that they can not assemble bikes properly. Unless, of course, the bikes come with a certain component spec from the factory. One ordered specifically, or maybe there was a mid-year spec change, or... Fact is, Danny, you have no idea WHY the bikes got specced this way, and pretending it's incompetance means that you're just casting about for some lifeline to save you ass. Too bad you're not man enough to admit that you don't really know what the answer is. If you call Trek, they will tell you what you saw is wrong. You need to find more competent bike shops. Funny thing about that - they have told me that some bikes get different forks because they have similar price points. I'm sure you could call them and hear the same thing. But you won't. No ****. It was a 30. I know you think you're making a point, so I'm gonna leave it at "yeah, the 25 and 30 are completely different bikes - so different they feel like they were made by different manufacturers." LMAO. The 25 and 50 are part of a lineup where each is supposed to have full time plush ( 5 inch potential travel), with SPV to prevent use of the full 5 inches when its not needed. Like when you're pedalling? Ooops, except I wasn't pedalling, I was going down the hill. The shocks are supposed to act completely differently in that mode? Explain that, Dan. You keep speaking in general, marketing, terms. Be specific and technical, so that everyone will know that you know EXACTLY what you are talking about. The 10 and 30 are a whole different philosophy----changeable travel. And this makes the same bike so drastically different on the downhill (using the same travel setting as the SPV-equipped frame) that they act like totally different bikes? Be detailed in your technical description. You can say the 25 is similar to the 50. You can say the 10 is similar to the 30. That's it. And they all use the very same frame. Ooops, different paint. Ah-HA - it's the *paint* that makes all the difference! Black paint is flexier! No wonder red bikes are faster! As it is, you are deserving the title of the "worst Reviewer" of bikes or parts I have ever heard of. Since you are wrong so often, this is actually quite a compliment. Thank you. Exactly what has this to do with the internals filtering low-frequency inputs? What's that, you say? Nothing? Yup, you're right. When you're not pedalling, the bikes have *essentially* the same behavior, assuming the shock is set up correctly. We can't begin to assume the shock was set up correctly. If it was set up according to the manual, then it was set up about as correctly as it can be without extensive "dialling-in." But it shouldn't need to be perfect to ride well. It should have a decent range of "good enough." Just like the Giant, Marin and Specialized. All set up to factory-recommended specs. No lateral flex in these bikes. (Not entirely true, but one really has to be looking for it to tell.) As I said before, if it needs to be set up perfectly to ride acceptably, then the bike is crap. Everything you have said [snip] Considering the source of this, Dan, you really do make yourself look like a total tool. Works for me. So, one of these shocks, the one that keeps the bike from bobbing when pedalling, somehow does a better job of doing something other than that than the shock that wasn't designed to keep the bike from bobbing when pedalling? A bike with a short rocker arm will have less leverage Both bikes have the same rocker arm length. And both bikes had the same travel (5 inches.) Find another theory - your flailing is amusing. You're no mechanical genious, that's for damn sure. I think I'd have to be an "Educational Genius" to explain things to you properly for your awareness disability ;-) I get it now - you just read what you want to, and ignore the inconvenient. Sort of an MJV Jr. Yeah, really. All your excuses just make you look like a whining kid. Very good. Just gloss over another of your reviewing mistakes....You missed on which rider you were reviewing Ah, yes - lack of comprehension on your part means that you jam another six inches of leg into your mouth. Keep up, Danny: You make claims about "fast" and "technical". Then you show a vid. Neither fast nor technical. It's all about you, not your wannabe buddy. Got it now? Overall, just one more example of you not knowing what you are talking about. USENET irony at it's finest. So, if you know so damn much, why aren't the Specialized or Marin bikes as good or better choices than your Liquid Rear End? I don't think they are. It's too bad that you can't answer this question. Not "won't", but "can't". Because you never actually rode those bikes, to see how much better they were than your flexy Liquid. "I bought it, so it must be good." -- Jonesy |
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