broken spokes, cassette/drive train compatability

David L. Johnson wrote:
On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 10:30:41 -0800, jim beam wrote:


A machine-built standard wheel will be true at first, but the spokes are
far too loose, and are not stress-relieved, and so will fail quickly.
This is not prejudice, but observation.

As for which ones do better, one would hope that the fancy "boutique"
wheels costing over $1000 per pair would do better. For me, though, that
is an untestable hypothesis, since I can build my own wheels for a small
fraction of the price, and they last a very long time.


wow, by that rationale, every car, washing machine, every computer,
every elevator motor, every air conditioning compressor, [insert any
number of mass production processes here] would be utter garbage. but
they're not.

don't believe all the fud. that's the i.q. vacuum into which ill
researched books get sold.


I don't know how you got that "rationale", or what comparison you are
drawing between wheels and washing machines. My claim was not that
mass-production always produces "utter garbage", but that low-end market
wheel-building machines build wheels that are not durable.

You have to look at the market for low-end bicycles. Most are not ridden
very far, or often, and mostly by kids. Manufacturers think that what
they produce is good enough, and probably the complaint level is low
enough to justify that belief.

You can buy whatever wheels you want. But too many people here, and on
rides, have trouble with cheapo machine-built wheels for me to think that
is my "research" which is ill in this case.


at least you're now qualifying your position and limiting it to
"low-end". but failure here is a function of execution & materials, and
whether it's built by machine or by hand, low quality is still low
quality. whether a machine was used in construction really has nothing
to do with it.

On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 20:50:57 -0800, jim beam wrote:

at least you're now qualifying your position and limiting it to
"low-end". but failure here is a function of execution & materials, and
whether it's built by machine or by hand, low quality is still low
quality. whether a machine was used in construction really has nothing
to do with it.

Are there any machines that build conventional high-spoke count wheels
ready for use right out of the machine? All of the good wheelbuilders seem
to do final truing and tensioning by hand, even though they lace and
pretension the wheels in a machine. Rose Versand actually went so far as
to return their wheel lacing machine because their trained
monkeys^Wwrenches were faster and cheaper.

Jasper

Jasper Janssen wrote:

Are there any machines that build conventional high-spoke count wheels
ready for use right out of the machine? All of the good wheelbuilders
seem to do final truing and tensioning by hand, even though they lace
and pretension the wheels in a machine. Rose Versand actually went so
far as to return their wheel lacing machine because their trained
monkeys^Wwrenches were faster and cheaper.

Jasper

When I was a kid I had a home working job lacing bottom end steel rim
wheels, I was paid 20p per wheel and did about 6 or 7 an hour. At today's
rates that would probably cost around a quid a wheel.

In a decent wheel the cost of lacing is negligible.



--
Andy Morris

AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK

Love this:
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In rec.bicycles.tech David L. Johnson writes:

A machine-built standard wheel will be true at first, but the
spokes are far too loose, and are not stress-relieved, and so will
fail quickly. This is not prejudice, but observation.

As for which ones do better, one would hope that the fancy
"boutique" wheels costing over $1000 per pair would do better.
For me, though, that is an untestable hypothesis, since I can
build my own wheels for a small fraction of the price, and they
last a very long time.

wow, by that rationale, every car, washing machine, every computer,
every elevator motor, every air conditioning compressor, [insert
any number of mass production processes here] would be utter
garbage. but they're not.

don't believe all the fud. that's the i.q. vacuum into which ill
researched books get sold.

I don't know how you got that "rationale", or what comparison you
are drawing between wheels and washing machines. My claim was not
that mass-production always produces "utter garbage", but that
low-end market wheel-building machines build wheels that are not
durable.

You have to look at the market for low-end bicycles. Most are not
ridden very far, or often, and mostly by kids. Manufacturers think
that what they produce is good enough, and probably the complaint
level is low enough to justify that belief.

You can buy whatever wheels you want. But too many people here, and
on rides, have trouble with cheap machine-built wheels for me to
think that is my "research" which is ill in this case.

It isn't only low end wheels that are built on machines but rather
most non-esoteric ones that use elbowed spokes. The difference is
that the purveyors of these more expensive wheels realize that they
need final tightening and truing before shipping them, so they do
that. I know that the bicycle shops in my area do that to wheels on
bicycles they sell.

As I mentioned, Wheelsmith was one of the earliest in the USA to get
such a machine and I witnessed the problems they had. It was the
loose spoking that got Spoke Prep into the mix. If you look at DT's
web site, you'll see the even offer spoke nipples with such an
adhesive in the threads.

Those of us who have built durable wheels for a long time without
spoke adhesive know that it is not necessary because a nipple on
tensioned spoke cannot unscrew. It is only when the spoke becomes
slack from road impacts that they do so.

Jobst Brandt

Jasper Janssen writes:

at least you're now qualifying your position and limiting it to
"low-end". but failure here is a function of execution &
materials, and whether it's built by machine or by hand, low
quality is still low quality. whether a machine was used in
construction really has nothing to do with it.

Are there any machines that build conventional high-spoke count
wheels ready for use right out of the machine? All of the good
wheelbuilders seem to do final truing and tensioning by hand, even
though they lace and pretension the wheels in a machine.

I am certain that you cannot properly tension a wheel (even 36-spoke)
ready to use in the machines of today. That is why Holland Mechanics
and BMD are pursuing that feature that is easily added to their
equipment. Wheel lacing is what the machine does best. If you watch
one in use, you would be amazed how fast a wheel is laced up and ready
to true. It is the "Robot" that has the problem and it can be fixed.

Rose Versand actually went so far as to return their wheel lacing
machine because their trained monkeys wrenches were faster and
cheaper.

That's too bad, the lacing machine is a real boon to wheel building
and delivers a wheel that could be ridden (although not long.) I
doubt that they can lace a wheel nearly as fast as the machine can do
it. However, from the lacing machine, it's a short manual process to
make a good wheel.

Jobst Brandt

Andy Morris writes:

Are there any machines that build conventional high-spoke count
wheels ready for use right out of the machine? All of the good
wheelbuilders seem to do final truing and tensioning by hand, even
though they lace and pretension the wheels in a machine. Rose
Versand actually went so far as to return their wheel lacing
machine because their trained monkeys wrenches were faster and
cheaper.

When I was a kid I had a home working job lacing bottom end steel
rim wheels, I was paid 20p per wheel and did about 6 or 7 an
hour. At today's rates that would probably cost around a quid a
wheel.

In a decent wheel the cost of lacing is negligible.

Not if you realize that the lacing machine delivers a fairly tight
wheel, none of the spoke being slack and with trueness close to what
the finished product should be.

I don't believe the detractors of wheel building machines have seen
them in action. I watched Wheelsmith build many wheels with their
Holland Mechanics machine when the process was still in Palo Alto.

Jobst Brandt

Thank you all.

I am not sure about my rim width, but it seems to have always worked
with
a 700x35 tube. I recently replaced it with a tube that is marked
700x20-28.
Do you think the (presumably) wide rim/narrow tube combiantion could
bring broken spokes? I might have to be more cautions here. When the
tiny tube is fully inflated, the valve does not fully stick out of the
rim,
looking very funny.

Here is what Sheldon Brown have to say:
http://sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html#width
But he is talking about TIRE sizing.

Thanks again.

Lisp949 wrote:
Hello,

The spokes on my rear wheel keep breaking (three so far in
two weeks). Every time I replaced a spoke, the truing was
OK, but it just did not stop spokes from breaking. Could
there be something wrong that I did not see?

The current drive train is seven-speed. I was thinking of
putting in place a wheel with a six-speed cassette. I
suppose there will be fewer broken spokes. Will the six-
speed cassette work with the seven-speed chain and rear
derailleur?

Thanks.

In article .com,
says...

Hello,
The spokes on my rear wheel keep breaking (three so far in
two weeks). Every time I replaced a spoke, the truing was
OK, but it just did not stop spokes from breaking. Could
there be something wrong that I did not see?

Of course there is. The wheels were probably poorly built and the spokes
fatigued. Most of the spokes on that same side of the wheel are probably
all at the breaking point.


The current drive train is seven-speed. I was thinking of
putting in place a wheel with a six-speed cassette. I
suppose there will be fewer broken spokes. Will the six-
speed cassette work with the seven-speed chain and rear
derailleur?

Just rebuild the 7 spd wheel and make sure the job is done properly.
I suggest getting a copy of 'The Bicycl Wheel' by Jobst Brandt .
--------------
Alex

wrote:
Andy Morris writes:

When I was a kid I had a home working job lacing bottom end steel
rim wheels, I was paid 20p per wheel and did about 6 or 7 an
hour. At today's rates that would probably cost around a quid a
wheel.

In a decent wheel the cost of lacing is negligible.

Not if you realize that the lacing machine delivers a fairly tight
wheel, none of the spoke being slack and with trueness close to what
the finished product should be.

I was on piece work so the nipples only has to be threaded enough so that
they didn't vibrate off in the van on the way to the next stage. Still three
pushes on a Yankee driver would sort it out , say another 90 secs per wheel.


I don't believe the detractors of wheel building machines have seen
them in action.

Its something I'd love to see.

--
Andy Morris

AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK

Love this:
Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes
http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/

In article
. com,
"Lisp949" wrote:

Thank you all.

I am not sure about my rim width, but it seems to have always worked
with
a 700x35 tube. I recently replaced it with a tube that is marked
700x20-28.
Do you think the (presumably) wide rim/narrow tube combiantion could
bring broken spokes? I might have to be more cautions here. When the
tiny tube is fully inflated, the valve does not fully stick out of the
rim,
looking very funny.

Be aware that using an undersized tube is a risk. A risk
that is not worth taking. An undersized tube inflated
expands to fill the space allotted. It is blown up like a
balloon. The tube walls are in tension. If (or when) the
tube is punctured it can rip and deflate instantly. At
speed you might lose control.

A properly sized tube is already the size of the space it
is intended to fill, when inflated the tube is the same
size as when deflated, and the walls are not in tension.

--
Michael Press
The rest of the world.