FLU

On Monday, November 27, 2017 at 4:24:12 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-27 14:42, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, November 27, 2017 at 1:32:12 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-27 11:55, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, November 27, 2017 at 9:38:12 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-26 16:08, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 26 Nov 2017 08:07:27 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-26 07:18, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/25/2017 3:05 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-25 12:51, wrote:
On Saturday, November 25, 2017 at 1:48:06 PM UTC-7,
wrote:
the foil joke may prevent you from arranging
with/into your environment

try this ... if foil was a component then why not
.... ?

J this is an older German architectural/psych
concept: terracotta buildings are healthier than
steel reinforced concrete ...a much larger off the
ground scale

I cannot locate current info on the net


Steel re-enforced in most cases means some big
residential highrise in a congested area. No wonder
that those people are or feel less healthy. I have
never understood the desire of city folk to cram
together like sardines in a can.


Try an intro Anthropology book some time. Before The
Inter Webs, close proximity promoted exchange of ideas
and specialization of effort. Still does to some extent.


It does, though specialization is not always a good thing.
It results, for example, in people who can't even fix a
flat. Their tool of fixing just about anything is the
yellow pages.

As for health, dense living results in lot of civilization
diseases, higher stress levels and nowadays lung diseases
because of pollution. Probably also more cancer. Just
about every time I reach the top of the last hill to ride
into the Sacramento Valley I see that brownish smog line
and I am thankful not to have to live down there. Other
times I can literally smell it.

I'm not so sure about the higher stress levels. I grew in a
rural village in New England and have lived in cities like
Miami Fl, Tokyo, Japan, Jakarta Indonesia and Bangkok
Thailand and to be frank I have never felt any stress from
living in cities.


Such stress is often subconscious and not openly felt but it's
there. Honking, screeching tires, hustle and bustle, police
sirens, general traffic noise in the city ... versus
tranquility, bird chirping, gentle leaf rustling, rooster
crowing in the country. It has been studied scientifically many
times.

http://www.nature.com/news/2011/1106...l/474429a.html

Population pressures can cause stress, but remote, sparsely
populated areas can be stressful, too, and some places are simply
alienating -- socially and visually.


Why visually? While other people look at the bland outer walls of
the next high-rises I look at vistas like this:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/SouthFork1.JPG


Boring brown foothills. I was raised in an area like that. The
action is up the road in the Sierra -- which are stunning.


Not at all boring. I sat there on the side of the trail with home-made
bread, good cheese and sausage, plus a thermos with homebrew IPA. On the
way back I saw traffic on the river and raced the MTB down there.
Amazing, rush hour on the American River:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/SouthFork2.JPG

Also I nice opportunity for a little swim.


I look at vistas like this, which is shot from my commute route:
https://multco.us/sites/default/file...?itok=iYuM17n-


Without all these high-rises it would be a much prettier picture.


I work in the tall white building and have an unobstructed view of
Mt. Hood. I can jump on my bike and go he
http://images.fineartamerica.com/ima...t-jon-ares.jpg
70 miles out and back.


Very nice. However, I do not need to ride 35mi to get there. I can ride
5-10mi and sit in rolling green meadows that look like Switzerland. No
noise other than the occasional mooh from cows or a horse whinnying.
That is one of my places to go to think through a tough engineering
challenge.


... Longer gravel ride:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4Zj5JTj6uk


Too much road. When I need to pick up something from Lowes or from the
brewing supply place I sometimes take this route:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44zqIKf2T_I

I don't have to specifically travel out there, it's just part of the ride..


In fact, I can go snow skiing, bike riding, hiking, windsurfing,
brew-pubbing, distillery hopping, etc., etc. all in one summer day
(theoretically, if I had the energy).
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/201...d-access-t/#/3


So could I.

Nope. Timberline is the only place in the continental US with year-round, lift-served skiing. And you do not have Hood River on the way home: https://www.tripadvisor.com/Location...er_Oregon.html

Not that I'm a wind surfer, but I have ridden to summer ski. My wife drove because I don't have a gnarly rack that will carry my skis -- also made in Portland. https://shop.on3pskis.com/

This reminds me why I live in a city -- which does suck in many respects, particularly with all the rain in Portland. But I like the fact that I can ride, drive, bus, walk, train to the shop where my skis were made and talk to the guys who made them. It's right up there with petting a horse on the nose. I can walk to the grocery store from my house; ride with my neighbor buddy, go to a restaurant that doesn't suck -- see a movie not on my television.

A big city like NYC would be too much. I have to be close to a rural area, but I could not imagine living in Toadsuck, drinking bad coffee at the Toadsuck Cafe and waiting for my shift cables to come via UPS so I can go out for a ride through the god-forsaken, tree-less desert by myself.


-- Jay Beattie.

On 11/27/2017 5:42 PM, jbeattie wrote:

BTW, I walk on a horse trail and don't find it particularly enjoyable. He https://tinyurl.com/y7sqb7j5 That is about a mile from my godless, urban wasteland of a home. My wife and I do a lot of walking around Tryon Creek. I bet you don't have a little suspension bridge in your back yard! http://www.oregonhikers.org/w/images...leyBridge1.jpg

Just incidentally, we do have a very similar suspension bridge in our
local forest preserve. The forest entrance is about half a mile from my
house, riding or walking on very quiet residential streets. The
suspension bridge is maybe half a mile farther.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, November 27, 2017 at 7:20:30 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/27/2017 5:42 PM, jbeattie wrote:

BTW, I walk on a horse trail and don't find it particularly enjoyable. He https://tinyurl.com/y7sqb7j5 That is about a mile from my godless, urban wasteland of a home. My wife and I do a lot of walking around Tryon Creek. I bet you don't have a little suspension bridge in your back yard! http://www.oregonhikers.org/w/images...leyBridge1.jpg

Just incidentally, we do have a very similar suspension bridge in our
local forest preserve. The forest entrance is about half a mile from my
house, riding or walking on very quiet residential streets. The
suspension bridge is maybe half a mile farther.

Everyone should have a forest trail with a little suspension bridge. Maybe we could get Trump to wrap it into the new tax plan. I'm not excited about the horses on the horse trail though. The owners should carry 30 gallon Glad bags to pick up the crap -- like dog owners. One route to the trail head is quiet -- the other is not, but it has a wide sidewalk. The quiet route has sidewalk. I'm outraged that city planners don't understand that I need a sidewalk.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Monday, November 27, 2017 at 3:42:37 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, November 27, 2017 at 1:32:12 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-27 11:55, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, November 27, 2017 at 9:38:12 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-26 16:08, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 26 Nov 2017 08:07:27 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-26 07:18, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/25/2017 3:05 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-25 12:51, wrote:
On Saturday, November 25, 2017 at 1:48:06 PM UTC-7,
wrote:
the foil joke may prevent you from arranging with/into
your environment

try this ... if foil was a component then why not ....
?

J this is an older German architectural/psych concept:
terracotta buildings are healthier than steel reinforced
concrete ...a much larger off the ground scale

I cannot locate current info on the net


Steel re-enforced in most cases means some big residential
highrise in a congested area. No wonder that those people
are or feel less healthy. I have never understood the
desire of city folk to cram together like sardines in a
can.


Try an intro Anthropology book some time. Before The Inter
Webs, close proximity promoted exchange of ideas and
specialization of effort. Still does to some extent.


It does, though specialization is not always a good thing. It
results, for example, in people who can't even fix a flat.
Their tool of fixing just about anything is the yellow pages.

As for health, dense living results in lot of civilization
diseases, higher stress levels and nowadays lung diseases
because of pollution. Probably also more cancer. Just about
every time I reach the top of the last hill to ride into the
Sacramento Valley I see that brownish smog line and I am
thankful not to have to live down there. Other times I can
literally smell it.

I'm not so sure about the higher stress levels. I grew in a
rural village in New England and have lived in cities like Miami
Fl, Tokyo, Japan, Jakarta Indonesia and Bangkok Thailand and to
be frank I have never felt any stress from living in cities.


Such stress is often subconscious and not openly felt but it's
there. Honking, screeching tires, hustle and bustle, police sirens,
general traffic noise in the city ... versus tranquility, bird
chirping, gentle leaf rustling, rooster crowing in the country. It
has been studied scientifically many times.

http://www.nature.com/news/2011/1106...l/474429a.html

Population pressures can cause stress, but remote, sparsely populated
areas can be stressful, too, and some places are simply alienating --
socially and visually.


Why visually? While other people look at the bland outer walls of the
next high-rises I look at vistas like this:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/SouthFork1.JPG


Boring brown foothills. I was raised in an area like that. The action is up the road in the Sierra -- which are stunning.

I look at vistas like this, which is shot from my commute route: https://multco.us/sites/default/file...?itok=iYuM17n-

I work in the tall white building and have an unobstructed view of Mt. Hood. I can jump on my bike and go he http://images.fineartamerica.com/ima...t-jon-ares.jpg 70 miles out and back. Longer gravel ride: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4Zj5JTj6uk

In fact, I can go snow skiing, bike riding, hiking, windsurfing, brew-pubbing, distillery hopping, etc., etc. all in one summer day (theoretically, if I had the energy). http://www.spokesman.com/stories/201...d-access-t/#/3

Timberline is about an hour and a half by car from my loathsome urban home.

Socially, yes, if someone has problems in that domain they should not
live out in the country. I am quite happy with the number of friends I
have here and also consider friendship with animals to be very
rewarding. On my last ride I spent around 1/2h with horses. When they
see my helmet bobbing in the distance they start coming. Even some wild
animals are quite social. Deer, foxes, birds. After a while they
recognize people they see a lot and behave quite friendly. Especially if
one makes the time for them.

Dear St. Francis, I'm not talking about being lonely and communing with the animals. I'm talking about living in a cow-town east of the Cascades where being from Portland makes me a presumptive tree-hugging, faggot communist. I've been to tiny towns in Idaho and Montana where the locals were downright hostile to cyclists. If you moved to Hurricane, you would never quite fit into the dominant culture -- unless you convert.


In the city people honk if you stop "needlessly". Even cyclists have
hollered "Don't block the path!" when I dared to pet a dog. They
obviously felt inconvenienced to move the handlebar a few milli-degrees
to ride around us. I once inadvertently blocked a singletrack because a
horse wanted a nose rub. Another rider came up from behind, hopped off
and gave the next horse a nose rub. Then we talked about trails and
stuff for 15 minutes. That's what I call country living.

I get a flat tire, and I have fifty people ask me if I need help -- which does get tiring. And yes, there is nasty city traffic and honking motor vehicles. It's a big city, and that is why I am moving back to Portland in 1978 -- or Los Gatos in 1968. I see no other options than time travel.

BTW, I walk on a horse trail and don't find it particularly enjoyable. He https://tinyurl.com/y7sqb7j5 That is about a mile from my godless, urban wasteland of a home. My wife and I do a lot of walking around Tryon Creek. I bet you don't have a little suspension bridge in your back yard! http://www.oregonhikers.org/w/images...leyBridge1.jpg



And there are dangers of living in a truly remote area. It is like
skiing out of bounds. If you get hurt, you better have a beacon and
an evacuation strategy.


Very aware of that. This is why there are rocky downhill stretches that
I walk down when I ride alone. So far I mostly have to because people
consider MTB rides longer than 20mi or road bike ride of more than 35mi
"crazy". I'll also have to get a portable 2m radio because cell phones
don't work well out there.

You must hang with a dopey cohort. Around here, nobody marvels at a 35 mile road ride. Half the city rides CX. https://farm7.staticflickr.com/6171/...538f04fd1d.jpg
http://www.cxmagazine.com/racers-num...endance-record

-- Jay Beattie.

goo.gl/SZJvGK

goo.gl/7Suz1m

goo.gl/vvqJXp

On 27/11/2017 5:42 PM, jbeattie wrote:
snip

You must hang with a dopey cohort. Around here, nobody marvels at a 35 mile road ride. Half the city rides CX. https://farm7.staticflickr.com/6171/...538f04fd1d.jpg
http://www.cxmagazine.com/racers-num...endance-record

Yeah but you don't live in such a dangerous place where 35 miles would
be full of mountain lions and dragons and stuff like that. We can't
compare our mundane 100k rides with that.

On Tuesday, November 28, 2017 at 6:44:51 AM UTC-8, duane wrote:
On 27/11/2017 5:42 PM, jbeattie wrote:
snip

You must hang with a dopey cohort. Around here, nobody marvels at a 35 mile road ride. Half the city rides CX. https://farm7.staticflickr.com/6171/...538f04fd1d.jpg
http://www.cxmagazine.com/racers-num...endance-record

Yeah but you don't live in such a dangerous place where 35 miles would
be full of mountain lions and dragons and stuff like that. We can't
compare our mundane 100k rides with that.

I would trade the piles of wet leaves for clear pavement, two mountain lions and a dragon. At least I could carry speed through the corners while being chased. Dragons have a crappy turn radius.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 2017-11-27 16:03, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, November 27, 2017 at 4:16:23 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-27 12:15, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, November 27, 2017 at 10:25:02 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-26 18:57, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Another false dichotomy. Riding on the road does not mean
ingesting significant pollution. Several studies have shown
that even in city traffic, cyclists ingest less pollution
than motor vehicle operators. Other studies have shown that
bicycle commuters live far longer than those commuting by
other means.


Ah yes, you have a magic energy shield around you so the fumes
part right in front of your face. Phhht. I can literally smell
just about any Diesel that comes by.

Cars have HEPA filters and a cocoon-like innard in whcih the
operator resideth, bicycles ... don't.


IOW, "Don't bother me with scientific studies. My own imagination
is infallible."


That goes for you. When have you last seen a bicycle with a HEPA
filter? Do you know what a HEPA filter is?


Yes I do, Joerg. I worked as a plant engineer, then I was in charge
of several labs at the university. What you don't seem to understand
is that smelling a diesel is not equivalent to ingesting a
significant amount of pollution. They are identical only in your
imagination.


Ah yes, the imaginary glass wall around you while riding. When I start
to cough after a few miles of Green Valley Road during rush hour I know
exactly where that comes from. Not surprisingly it stops once I've
turned away from that road and it doesn't happen if I do not use that
road or avoid rush hour.

Most fun is when a school bus goes by like one on these:

https://www.nsf.gov/news/mmg/media/i...ealevel5_f.jpg


One of your biggest logical problems is equating your imagination
with actual fact. You stumble over that time and again.


When you can smell it then it goes into your lungs unless you stop
breathing. Which is hard to do uphill on a bicycle. It's simple.


Besides, almost all of my riding involves relatively little
traffic even though I rarely use bike paths. I enjoy riding
quiet roads, where I may be passed by fewer than 20 cars per
hour. But even on utility trips in the city or its suburbs, I
can usually choose quieter streets. On our runs to the
grocery store, we choose a route that gives us six miles
round trip. We'll typically be passed by only a dozen cars.


Good luck trying that where a metropolis is 30mi or closer. I
sometimes have to ride during rush our and then it's almost
bumper to bumper.

Oh dear, you poor baby! Imagine! Sometimes having to ride in
rush hour!

But I'm sure you've convinced those in power to add a completely
separate bike facility along all of your routes, right? After
all, you seem to think that's the only solution to your problem.


It is the only environmentally friendly one. The other solution is
to use the car.

Bull****. You completely ignore or discount the idea of riding a bike
on a normal street or road, something that most of us here probably
do almost every day. That is more environmentally friendly than
wasting resources to pave more of the earth. It has the added benefit
of allowing you to ride to almost any practical destination, not just
those along a kiddie path.


On some roads you might as well pick up smoking, it won't make much of a
difference.


Oh - and I'm sure your completely separate bike paths will be
hermetically sealed, and given their own supply of filtered and
purified air, right? It wouldn't do to have them downwind from
some cars. One can't be too careful!


The one I took on Friday does come close to roads and even ...
gasp ... Highway 50 at one spot where you can hear faint vroom
vroom sounds. Smells? Pine needle scent, foliage, earth, and oo,
the occasionally horse poop. I rather smell horse poop than the
soot from a big Diesel. You might be so city-addicted that you
don't notice the difference but I sure do.

Ah, so you don't demand a bike path sealed against pollution? If some
separation is sufficient, is that because the amount of pollution is
diluted by distance and is below some limit?

Shall we pursue this? What is the limit, and how should we determine
it?


Being outside of the usual Diesel plumes suffices. Pollution is never an
on-off business, it's the quantity and the cumulative effect that matter.


My contention is that riding fairly quiet streets (like today's ten
miles to the credit union, plus my ride to the post office) puts one
way below any reasonable limit of pollution exposure.

And as evidence, I'll link to easily available articles showing that
bike commuting increases longevity. That's true even in places where
there are few bike facilities, and in places where those on the bike
facilities can smell the nearby diesel fumes. The Netherlands really
doesn't seal off its bike paths, you know.

https://www.bicycling.com/training/f...ride-your-life


Does not work.


http://time.com/4748377/commute-biki...ing-longevity/


No mention of bike path percentage.


http://mentalfloss.com/article/79211...cy-study-finds


No mention of bike path percentage. I lived there and they had lots of
segragated bike paths.

So far for your scientific accuracy.


Those articles refer to three separate studies in three different
locations, all with the same general result - a result that disagrees
with your fearful imagination. They indicate that riding a bike in very
normal city environments
is not detrimental to your health. Instead, it's highly beneficial.


No mention of bike path percentage.

Sorry, Joerg. I chose instead to learn to ride on the roads,
and I do so in perfect comfort and safety. You should try
that. https://abea.bike/ Even you can learn to do it.


I know how to ride.

And there's one of bicycling's biggest problems. Everyone over 12
thinks "I know how to ride." They can't imagine there's anything
they don't already know, so they absolutely refuse to consider
learning anything. It's Dunning-Kruger in full force.

Of course, you will never accept anyone who has even a slightly
different opinion than you do. Doesn't matter to me.


I have accepted reasonable input and changed my views on many issues,
including on issues discussed in this forum. When I'm presented with
evidence, I evaluate it and compare it with other evidence.
Occasionally I've found that I was wrong.


That would be the day! :-)


What I don't accept are opinions whose source are just a paranoid's
imagination.


Then keep riding on roads. It's your lungs, not mine.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-11-27 16:21, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 13:16:19 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-27 12:15, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, November 27, 2017 at 10:25:02 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-26 18:57, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/26/2017 12:29 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-26 09:16, AMuzi wrote:


This is a false dichotomy in that all of it can be true and
likely is. Choice is good, neither city nor rural life being
perfect and humans being by their nature a diverse lot.


Though as humans we need to recognize when we are damaging our
bodies and the denser the area the more that will happen. This
is also why I'll never understand people who say "Away with
cycle paths, bicycles belong on the road". I find that, sorry
to say, stupid. Why would anyone in their right mind want to
travel alongside noisy and polluting combustion engines buzzing
by?

Another false dichotomy. Riding on the road does not mean
ingesting significant pollution. Several studies have shown that
even in city traffic, cyclists ingest less pollution than motor
vehicle operators. Other studies have shown that bicycle
commuters live far longer than those commuting by other means.


Ah yes, you have a magic energy shield around you so the fumes
part right in front of your face. Phhht. I can literally smell just
about any Diesel that comes by.

Cars have HEPA filters and a cocoon-like innard in whcih the
operator resideth, bicycles ... don't.


IOW, "Don't bother me with scientific studies. My own imagination is
infallible."


That goes for you. When have you last seen a bicycle with a HEPA filter?
Do you know what a HEPA filter is?


Besides, almost all of my riding involves relatively little
traffic even though I rarely use bike paths. I enjoy riding quiet
roads, where I may be passed by fewer than 20 cars per hour. But
even on utility trips in the city or its suburbs, I can usually
choose quieter streets. On our runs to the grocery store, we
choose a route that gives us six miles round trip. We'll
typically be passed by only a dozen cars.


Good luck trying that where a metropolis is 30mi or closer. I
sometimes have to ride during rush our and then it's almost bumper
to bumper.

Oh dear, you poor baby! Imagine! Sometimes having to ride in rush
hour!

But I'm sure you've convinced those in power to add a completely
separate bike facility along all of your routes, right? After all,
you seem to think that's the only solution to your problem.


It is the only environmentally friendly one. The other solution is to
use the car.


Oh - and I'm sure your completely separate bike paths will be
hermetically sealed, and given their own supply of filtered and
purified air, right? It wouldn't do to have them downwind from some
cars. One can't be too careful!


The one I took on Friday does come close to roads and even ... gasp
... Highway 50 at one spot where you can hear faint vroom vroom sounds.
Smells? Pine needle scent, foliage, earth, and oo, the occasionally
horse poop. I rather smell horse poop than the soot from a big Diesel.
You might be so city-addicted that you don't notice the difference but I
sure do.


Quite the opposite I would say. and, yes, I grew up in a rural
environment so I am familiar with all the smells that exist "out in
the country". But to those who actually reside in that environment
don't even notice them, they are part of the normal atmosphere.

It is only the city slickers who comment on "Oh... Smell the pine
trees. Of course there is an odor of pine trees, there ought to be as
all you can see is pine trees for miles around.

Your comment about smelling "horse poop" is a dead giveaway. The
correct term is "horse manure" and it is a normal part of the rural
atmosphere, or at least the normal rural atmosphere in areas where
horses are kept. In other areas it might be cow manure or chicken
manure and is a perfectly normal part of the environment where those
critters are raised.


As a little kid I grew up in farm country. Scientifically correct
expressions such as manure are mostly used by upscale folks that don't
live there. Locals call it poop or ****. Which is what it is. Sometimes
dung but that can already be seen as a frou-frou expression :-)


You remind me of the city folk that pay extra to buy the "organic"
vegetables that are grown in a chemical free environment... so you can
be sure that none of those nasty nitrogen rich chemicals are never,
never used.


You have the wrong impression there. And no, I do not eat kale. I can't
stand kale.


What you do to maintain the chemicals necessary to support plant life
is spread "natural" fertilizers... i.e. manure on the farm land.


Yes, cow dung. BTDT.


So (to be a bit vulgar) first you grow the veggies in **** and then
you charge the city folks extra for doing so :-)


That's what they did where I grew up. They also sold the **** itself to
city dwellers to fertilize their flower beds. That must have been
noticed by investment bankers who, as Jay put it, sold "**** parfait" in
the shape of bundled mortgage "securities" except that those eventually
blew up.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-11-27 17:54, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, November 27, 2017 at 4:24:12 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-27 14:42, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, November 27, 2017 at 1:32:12 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-27 11:55, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, November 27, 2017 at 9:38:12 AM UTC-8, Joerg
wrote:
On 2017-11-26 16:08, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 26 Nov 2017 08:07:27 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-26 07:18, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/25/2017 3:05 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-25 12:51, wrote:
On Saturday, November 25, 2017 at 1:48:06 PM
UTC-7, wrote:
the foil joke may prevent you from arranging
with/into your environment

try this ... if foil was a component then why
not .... ?

J this is an older German architectural/psych
concept: terracotta buildings are healthier than
steel reinforced concrete ...a much larger off
the ground scale

I cannot locate current info on the net


Steel re-enforced in most cases means some big
residential highrise in a congested area. No
wonder that those people are or feel less healthy.
I have never understood the desire of city folk to
cram together like sardines in a can.


Try an intro Anthropology book some time. Before The
Inter Webs, close proximity promoted exchange of
ideas and specialization of effort. Still does to
some extent.


It does, though specialization is not always a good
thing. It results, for example, in people who can't
even fix a flat. Their tool of fixing just about
anything is the yellow pages.

As for health, dense living results in lot of
civilization diseases, higher stress levels and
nowadays lung diseases because of pollution. Probably
also more cancer. Just about every time I reach the top
of the last hill to ride into the Sacramento Valley I
see that brownish smog line and I am thankful not to
have to live down there. Other times I can literally
smell it.

I'm not so sure about the higher stress levels. I grew in
a rural village in New England and have lived in cities
like Miami Fl, Tokyo, Japan, Jakarta Indonesia and
Bangkok Thailand and to be frank I have never felt any
stress from living in cities.


Such stress is often subconscious and not openly felt but
it's there. Honking, screeching tires, hustle and bustle,
police sirens, general traffic noise in the city ...
versus tranquility, bird chirping, gentle leaf rustling,
rooster crowing in the country. It has been studied
scientifically many times.

http://www.nature.com/news/2011/1106...l/474429a.html

Population pressures can cause stress, but remote, sparsely
populated areas can be stressful, too, and some places are
simply alienating -- socially and visually.


Why visually? While other people look at the bland outer walls
of the next high-rises I look at vistas like this:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/SouthFork1.JPG


Boring brown foothills. I was raised in an area like that. The
action is up the road in the Sierra -- which are stunning.


Not at all boring. I sat there on the side of the trail with
home-made bread, good cheese and sausage, plus a thermos with
homebrew IPA. On the way back I saw traffic on the river and raced
the MTB down there. Amazing, rush hour on the American River:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/SouthFork2.JPG

Also I nice opportunity for a little swim.


I look at vistas like this, which is shot from my commute route:
https://multco.us/sites/default/file...?itok=iYuM17n-




Without all these high-rises it would be a much prettier picture.


I work in the tall white building and have an unobstructed view
of Mt. Hood. I can jump on my bike and go he
http://images.fineartamerica.com/ima...t-jon-ares.jpg


70 miles out and back.


Very nice. However, I do not need to ride 35mi to get there. I can
ride 5-10mi and sit in rolling green meadows that look like
Switzerland. No noise other than the occasional mooh from cows or a
horse whinnying. That is one of my places to go to think through a
tough engineering challenge.


... Longer gravel ride:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4Zj5JTj6uk


Too much road. When I need to pick up something from Lowes or from
the brewing supply place I sometimes take this route:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44zqIKf2T_I

I don't have to specifically travel out there, it's just part of
the ride.


In fact, I can go snow skiing, bike riding, hiking, windsurfing,
brew-pubbing, distillery hopping, etc., etc. all in one summer
day (theoretically, if I had the energy).
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/201...d-access-t/#/3




So could I.

Nope. Timberline is the only place in the continental US with
year-round, lift-served skiing.


https://www.powder.com/latitudes/cal...g-summer-long/
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...726-story.html


... And you do not have Hood River on the
way home:
https://www.tripadvisor.com/Location...er_Oregon.html


You have to go to the coast for that here but it's only an hour or so. I
am not a surfer though.


Not that I'm a wind surfer, but I have ridden to summer ski. My wife
drove because I don't have a gnarly rack that will carry my skis --
also made in Portland. https://shop.on3pskis.com/


That's a link to a black Friday sale. It's Tuesday already ...


This reminds me why I live in a city -- which does suck in many
respects, particularly with all the rain in Portland. But I like the
fact that I can ride, drive, bus, walk, train to the shop where my
skis were made and talk to the guys who made them. It's right up
there with petting a horse on the nose.


Nah. No way. Right here in town on the singletrack I can also pet
alpacas, llamas and others. Sports equipment I can buy online.


... I can walk to the grocery
store from my house; ride with my neighbor buddy, go to a restaurant
that doesn't suck -- see a movie not on my television.


We've got that except the movie theater which would be in Placerville
and can be reached via singletrack. Last time I saw a movie there was
.... heck, I don't even remember.


A big city like NYC would be too much. I have to be close to a rural
area, but I could not imagine living in Toadsuck, drinking bad coffee
at the Toadsuck Cafe and waiting for my shift cables to come via UPS
so I can go out for a ride through the god-forsaken, tree-less desert
by myself.


We are simply different in that respect.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-11-27 16:43, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 09:38:07 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-26 16:08, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 26 Nov 2017 08:07:27 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-26 07:18, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/25/2017 3:05 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-25 12:51, wrote:
On Saturday, November 25, 2017 at 1:48:06 PM UTC-7,

wrote:
the foil joke may prevent you from arranging with/into your
environment

try this ... if foil was a component then why not .... ?

J this is an older German architectural/psych concept:
terracotta
buildings are healthier than steel reinforced concrete
...a much
larger off the ground scale

I cannot locate current info on the net


Steel re-enforced in most cases means some big residential
highrise in a congested area. No wonder that those people
are or feel less healthy. I have never understood the desire
of city folk to cram together like sardines in a can.


Try an intro Anthropology book some time.
Before The Inter Webs, close proximity promoted exchange of ideas and
specialization of effort. Still does to some extent.


It does, though specialization is not always a good thing. It results,
for example, in people who can't even fix a flat. Their tool of fixing
just about anything is the yellow pages.

As for health, dense living results in lot of civilization diseases,
higher stress levels and nowadays lung diseases because of pollution.
Probably also more cancer. Just about every time I reach the top of the
last hill to ride into the Sacramento Valley I see that brownish smog
line and I am thankful not to have to live down there. Other times I can
literally smell it.

I'm not so sure about the higher stress levels. I grew in a rural
village in New England and have lived in cities like Miami Fl, Tokyo,
Japan, Jakarta Indonesia and Bangkok Thailand and to be frank I have
never felt any stress from living in cities.


Such stress is often subconscious and not openly felt but it's there.
Honking, screeching tires, hustle and bustle, police sirens, general
traffic noise in the city ... versus tranquility, bird chirping, gentle
leaf rustling, rooster crowing in the country. It has been studied
scientifically many times.


Quite obviously you have never really lived in the country. Honking,
screeching, indeed.

What you have in the country is roosters that get up before daylight
to proclaim their rights to the big manure pile that they claim as
their fief. The cows bellowing to be milked... Good Lord, the
pressures! If you do go to town you have the be careful to be back for
milking time. No sleeping in on weekends the cows got to be milked and
the chickens fed and the eggs gathered. ...


All very regular patterns, unlike much of the stuff going in cities.


... No two weeks vacation either,
you got to get the plowing done and the garden in or there won't be
anything to eat next winter.


Hint: Agricultural things have progressed quite well since you were a
kid. Nowadays they have GPS controlled combines which can be operated by
staff and not only the owner of the farm.


And sure studies are made of the pressures of city life... All you
need to do is write up a good proposal and get the grant and away you
go. A government funded study. We get them over here. Every few years
you see an article in the Bangkok newspaper about someone that got yet
another grant to study "Prostitution in Thailand". So ignoring the
fact that prostitution have been studied innumerable times in the past
some bloke gets a grant to study them once again.


Having lived in the country and in the city, I don't need studies. I
know and made my choices accordingly. Interestingly my wife who grew up
in a huge city sees it the same way. She would never move back there.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/