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#21
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Riding up Oliver's Hill to be barred
byron27 Wrote: they have a race every year on the freeway from Belmont up to Joondalup in Perth (about 40 clicks i guess) which is awesome. 3 lanes of traffic all to yourself. biggest danger is hitting the reflective lane markers at 50+! And it's on this Sunday. 30km race at 7:15am. Then 30km charity ride with 4 starting groups at 15 minute intervals from 7:30am. Then family 10km ride starting at 9:30am. I'm riding the short course as I want to ride with the family and the 11 year old is not allowed by race rules in ride the longer route. (Have to be 12 or older to ride the 30km). SteveA -- SteveA |
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#22
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Riding up Oliver's Hill to be barred
Aren't bikes banned from Brunton Ave? I think ther'e a sign there, anyway. -- rdk |
#23
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Riding up Oliver's Hill to be barred
AndrewJ Wrote: Of course it is possible to prohibit vehicles. In this case, it is much safer to ride up Hopes Rise... I always ride up this way, and would not even think of taking the alternative. I use Hopes Rise most times I go that way, but when I've done the hell ride we went up the main road. Forcing 200 cyclists onto a narrow strip of road which is also used by pedestrians is absolutely nuts. Given the sheer size of the hell ride I don't think those riding in it are in real danger of not being seen, it seems to me to be more of a matter of Frankston police having a go at cyclists. The way they have gone about stopping cyclists using the main road supports this theory too. -- SomeGuy |
#24
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Riding up Oliver's Hill to be barred
Bleve Wrote: On Mar 15, 3:08 pm, Zebee Johnstone wrote: In aus.bicycle on 14 Mar 2007 20:38:11 -0700 Bleve wrote: Interesting to see if it's actually legal to force riders off a normal road. If there's a police direction, that's one thing, but a permanent rule? Is it legal on normal roadways to prohibit a class of vehicle? Most freeways in most states prohibit animals and animal-drawn vehicles. Some prohibit bicycles on part or all. Some roads have weight limits, some have size limits. Don't see why they can't be about underweight as well as overweight I thought freeways were a different (special) case though? My understanding was that a normal gazetted road was open to all 'vehicles' (which, AFAIK, includes bicycles). Thus the question. And, Andrew, I've ridden up Olivers Hill and felt as safe as I feel on most busy roads. Your paranoia does not mean the road is any more or less safe than any other road. Zebee we've covered this before....and discussed the for's and against on sending bunches up Hopes Rise... I guess some local constable plod has a nose out of joint or has a buddy who has influence... large groups of 30 ( yes legal number is 30, then a permit etc etc) are safer on the main roadway, Hopes Rise is very dangerous above 15klm per hour and when numbers are large... Hope's Rise is fine for small groups and individuals and I recommend it for that purpose...am not enamoured about any form of compulsory signage directing all bicycle traffic ( and it is traffic) up Hopes Rise at all times... The Black Rock ride doesnt cause any issues at the time of day it rides Ollies, obvious to me this is some way of getting to it without expressly saying so...will be interesting therefore to see the reaction of the non organisers especially the old salts from StKilda CC...., they dont have to use Ollies anyway to go up towards Mt Eliza, there is Karr Street, and any other number of ways through Frankston to get to Mt Eliza... I would suggest a better solution to the climb up Ollies for all traffic is to limit the speed limit to below 60kph and warning though traffic and traffic on the limit to use the right hand lane...bikes are not the only vehicles that use Ollies below 40klmph, many trucks, graders, tractors and slow cars find the climb onerous and slow....will they be going up Hopes rise too? -- rooman |
#25
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Riding up Oliver's Hill to be barred
"Bleve" wrote: I thought freeways were a different (special) case though? My understanding was that a normal gazetted road was open to all 'vehicles' (which, AFAIK, includes bicycles). Correct by my understanding (I'll have to double check the road rules) Is there a sign that says specifically "No bikes" or "Bicyclists prohibited"? Because that would be needed to stand up under the law. And even then I believe it would only apply to a freeway as they have special rules. A public road is just that - a road for the public to use, using whatever legally recognized vehicle they are travelling in/on. This joke of an issue reminds me of the main road into Korumburra. Check it out in your Vicroads directory. A normal main road that is marked in green: 4 kms of 'freeway' coming into Korumburra from Melbourne. Most country freeways you can now ride on, and this one is (I think) no exception. But back in the early 80s freeway riding was banned for bikes. That made 4 kms of ordinary two-lane highway an illegal ride by the letter of the law -- Cheers Peter ~~~ ~ _@ ~~ ~ _- \, ~~ (*)/ (*) |
#26
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Riding up Oliver's Hill to be barred
On Mar 16, 1:08 am, "Peter Signorini"
wrote: "Bleve" wrote: I thought freeways were a different (special) case though? My understanding was that a normal gazetted road was open to all 'vehicles' (which, AFAIK, includes bicycles). Correct by my understanding (I'll have to double check the road rules) Is there a sign that says specifically "No bikes" or "Bicyclists prohibited"? Because that would be needed to stand up under the law. And even then I believe it would only apply to a freeway as they have special rules. A public road is just that - a road for the public to use, using whatever legally recognized vehicle they are travelling in/on. This joke of an issue reminds me of the main road into Korumburra. Check it out in your Vicroads directory. A normal main road that is marked in green: 4 kms of 'freeway' coming into Korumburra from Melbourne. Most country freeways you can now ride on, and this one is (I think) no exception. But back in the early 80s freeway riding was banned for bikes. That made 4 kms of ordinary two-lane highway an illegal ride by the letter of the law -- Cheers Peter ~~~ ~ _@ ~~ ~ _- \, ~~ (*)/ (*) begin 666 icon_rolleyes.gif M1TE&.#EA#P`/`+,-`$5%1?_J`````/_.`/_)`/____Z=`/^T`/_^D___Q__] M$__E`/__ZP```````````"'_"TY%5%-#05!%,BXP`P$````A^00%"@`-`"P` M````#P`/```$7K!)"6J=N%66$!H7!G"*$IR#`4Q )PAG\*:KA@A%`,ZJ"6\ +0RB'E/"X)*T_V"#[R8 & `M!CRF! MJ-=IFIA?RAF6!8U$Q$`(?D$!0H`#0`L! `%``@``P``! JPB%GDO%;8H&$ M`"'Y! 4*``T`+ 0`! `'``0```0+L(E&Y:RSU*;Y+A$`(?D$!3(`#0`L! `$ M``@``P``! I0M-DD+;3A@B/`"'Y! 44``T`+ D`"@`"``(```0$L G1(@`A :AD4`(?D$!0``#0`L`@ `" M``L`!P``!!VP22$;K3)4757XS0J0BD$ID!,3=%:6%G)&Q=R$ 0`A^00%```- M`"P"``(`"P`&```$%K!))5NH.%A&[=!"(K*)P0F,5ZA& $`(?D$!0``#0`L C`@`"``L`!@``!!:P22$;K3A+I5N80FB%E%!(A8F6Y"A&`#L` ` end I think the right way to manage this for the "Hell Ride" is to designate it an official event that is held every week at the same time. Then put traffic conditions on all of the roads, including Frankston that apply at that time that make it safe for the race and the cars to be present. So, for example, 7am - 9am, on section X, there is a lane (obviously the leftmost lane) where cars have to give preference to bicycle groups in progress. This needs designated signage. As the ride progresses south, the conditions move with the ride. Given that the car traffic is very light at this time, this should not impede car traffic. But it does require the riders to use only a single lane. This work at Olivers Hill, in that cars would veer right and use the right lane up the hill. I still don't think you can mix a group race with normal car traffic without some conditions. This avoids banning cars completely from the road (unlikely to be achieved), and requires some discipline from the racers. Nobody is ever going to support the group running red lights. [You can see I've given it some thought, and decided the Hell Ride is more important than the car traffic at that time of day. ] |
#27
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Riding up Oliver's Hill to be barred
Bleve Wrote: On Mar 15, 1:36 pm, EuanB EuanB.2ng...@no- mx.forums.cyclingforums.com wrote: Frankston Leader http://www.frankstonleader.com.au/article/2007/03/12/11384_fsv_news.html] RIDING UP OLIVERS HILL TO BE BARRED 12Mar07 SOUTH-BOUND CYCLISTS WILL ALMOST CERTAINLY BE BARRED FROM RIDING OVER OLIVERS HILL, FRANKSTON, VIA THE NEPEAN HIGHWAY. A sign that advises cyclists to cross via Hopes Rise, beside the Nepean Highway, will be changed to compel their use of the detour. Sgt Bruce Buchan, of Frankston traffic police, said last Thursday that Hopes Rise was safer for cyclists and VicRoads planned to enforce the change. Olivers Hill is crossed by hundreds of sporting cyclists in each Saturday morning's ``hell ride'' from inner-Melbourne bayside suburbs to Mt Eliza. Some hell riders avoid Hopes Rise, which has a number of speed humps, but Frankston police have been directing them to the detour. A Queensland rider who broke from a south-bound pack of cyclists on Saturday, March 3, to climb the hill via the highway faces a $140 infringement notice or a court summons for having defied a policeman's lawful direction. On the face of it not a bad idea in this particular case. What are the ramifications for other roads where the advisory signs directing cyclists off the main highway through more dangerous routes? There's one particular case on Princes Highway that springs to mind. Interesting to see if it's actually legal to force riders off a normal road. If there's a police direction, that's one thing, but a permanent rule? Is it legal on normal roadways to prohibit a class of vehicle?[/color] it's certainly common practice to limit oversize vehicles, eg trucks are restricted (apparently) on Beach Road. There are height restrictions in the CityLink tunnels. -- ProfTournesol |
#28
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Riding up Oliver's Hill to be barred
AndrewJ Wrote: I think the right way to manage this for the "Hell Ride" is to designate it an official event that is held every week at the same time. Then put traffic conditions on all of the roads, including Frankston that apply at that time that make it safe for the race and the cars to be present. So, for example, 7am - 9am, on section X, there is a lane (obviously the leftmost lane) where cars have to give preference to bicycle groups in progress. This needs designated signage. As the ride progresses south, the conditions move with the ride. Given that the car traffic is very light at this time, this should not impede car traffic. But it does require the riders to use only a single lane. This work at Olivers Hill, in that cars would veer right and use the right lane up the hill. I still don't think you can mix a group race with normal car traffic without some conditions. This avoids banning cars completely from the road (unlikely to be achieved), and requires some discipline from the racers. Nobody is ever going to support the group running red lights. [You can see I've given it some thought, and decided the Hell Ride is more important than the car traffic at that time of day. ] whatever it is you are smoking you should stop it before it affects you even more. -- MikeyOz |
#29
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Riding up Oliver's Hill to be barred
AndrewJ wrote:
I think the right way to manage this for the "Hell Ride" is to designate it an official event that is held every week at the same time. Then put traffic conditions on all of the roads, including Frankston that apply at that time that make it safe for the race and the cars to be present. So there will be entry fees for this training ride I assume in order to cover road closures and the insurance that would be required to run an official event on the roads? And of course everyone would be happy to pay for that even though you can do the same ride for free. Bit more thought required. DaveB |
#30
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Riding up Oliver's Hill to be barred
DaveB Wrote: AndrewJ wrote: I think the right way to manage this for the "Hell Ride" is to designate it an official event that is held every week at the same time. Then put traffic conditions on all of the roads, including Frankston that apply at that time that make it safe for the race and the cars to be present. So there will be entry fees for this training ride I assume in order to cover road closures and the insurance that would be required to run an official event on the roads? And of course everyone would be happy to pay for that even though you can do the same ride for free. Bit more thought required. DaveB In all the time i have spent in the Hell Ride group they have stayed in one lane all at once for maybe 2-3 minutes. I feel that one of the main issues, that has been mentioned previously, is respect for the road rules by all members of the group. In the (rare) instances i have been on public group rides like this in Perth (Papa's public holiday rides) where there are over 80-90 riders, the group stays within one lane and slows coming into lights in case in turns. The Hell Ride seems to be full of PBR's (professional bunch riders) who rarely, if ever race, and get all their competitive urges out in a public group ride. This leads to excessive chopping, pushing through non existent gaps and treating the road as their closed race course. This is the only group ride i have ever done where i fear for my safety to the degree where i refuse to do it anymore. How to change the attitude of the ride? i have no idea. i know when people start racing a lot they treat group rides as training and know when the real racing is. -- byron27 |
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