Inappropriate LBS Service

On Oct 4, 1:31 am, "Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote:
We really don't have enough to go on here, but there *are* people in this
world who get an idea in their head and go out and do stupid things, despite
good advise from the shop to do otherwise. Could be that the shop wanted him
to take a bike out to try in the real world, a bike that might have been
close to what the measurements recommended, and he refused, saying don't
worry, this is what I want to do, do you want my money or not? I have
actually had to refuse selling expensive bikes once in a while to people
like that, and doing so puts you on that fine line between being considered
patronizing vs looking out for someone's best interests.

I'd be interested in hearing more of the story.

And more of the story you shall have. Thank you, Mike (and others),
for the benefit of doubt. As some may have guessed, we at HubBub are
the shop in question.

Your suspicions are actually surprisingly close to the truth. In fact
we have known this gentleman for many years. He would come into our
shop from time to time, but we never saw him as a potential client for
one of our bikes. We like to think we treat everyone with dignity and
respect, and take their cycling aspirations seriously, but were
especially careful in his case, suspecting he may frequently encounter
less than ideal treatment elsewhere. A couple years ago he again
began asking more questions about our processes and products we
offer. We humored him for many months, sometimes answering the same
questions MANY times, several different ways. We still didn't believe
he would ever come in wanting to actually buy a bike, and we even
tried to guide him to explore a couple other shops, feeling we may not
be the most appropriate choice for him.

Eventually, he did come for a full fitting. At that point (and I
remember this) we actually had a couple dinner-table conversations
about how to get out of what appeared to be an impending sale -
admittedly a difficult choice for a tiny custom-only bike shop. As
the client somehow further convinced himself this was the right
choice, we came to the conclusion, "He wants us to build him a bike.
How is that different from every other client who asks?" Maybe our
biggest mistake was not actually coming up with a good answer to that
question. Note that he had been telling us how he had been riding
(just like all our other customers). Additionally, we have built
bikes for people with poor flexibility, with great success, and he had
nowhere near the difficulties mounting our fitting machine like the
clients with issues.

He absolutely INSISTED upon a Co-Motion Americano, a fine choice of
course, but I had hoped for a choice that offered me a little more
flexibility in meeting his needs. Now, we are big Campy fans here,
but I made clear that I felt Shimano's versatility and more extensive
offerings were more suitable to his stated cycling intentions. Yes,
he insisted on Campagnolo components as well. We discussed every
detail of the bike, and of particular interest to him were color
combinations and polished parts. He agonized over which Brooks
leather saddle to choose. We stock Brooks but special ordered at
least two before he settled on the third one currently installed.
Much as I love my Brooks saddles, we certainly didn't want him
breaking one in. He was very insistent on that too. Keep in mind
that through all of this we were STILL trying to gently convince him
to try some other options - meaning other shops which actually stock
complete bicycles.

The fit parameters were finalized, the frame designed, built, and
delivered. We treated it with FrameSaver, installed the headset, and
set the frameset (in it's box for protection) high up on a shelf in
the back. Normally we put them on display for the couple days (or
even hours) before getting built-up, but we were still waiting for
final choices on components. Eventually all the details were ironed
out - wheels, handlebars, controls, brakes, gearing, tires, SADDLE,
rack, etc. - and we built the bike, about 5 months ago. (It sat on
our shelf in the back for at least 6 months, waiting for component
choices.)

All told, the initial order was placed about 14 months ago.
Eventually we had to press him so we could complete the build. To
this day it has never even been outside the door! (except likely for a
quick test-ride by the mechanic) Customers have been oohing and
aahing over it since we completed it several months ago, some even
expressed interest in buying it. We turned them down of course,
saying it belonged to somebody! The buyer came in a couple times to
see it, and seemed to like it very much. Whenever we tried to get him
to take it home and ride it he would respond with something about how
much he was traveling. Once he called to tell us how he wouldn't be
able to take the bike yet because he had sprained his wrist.
Eventually we called and asked more forcefully that he come pick it
up, explaining how it is more vulnerable to handling by customers, and
scratches, on the showroom floor now that it is built. He did finally
come in, with a brace on his wrist, and had FAR more difficulty
mounting and dismounting the bike than he did our fitting machine. We
reluctantly lowered the saddle well below its ideal height, at his
insistence, to help him. He made the choice himself not to take the
bike home with him, yet.

Now, allow me to be especially clear:
This man knows that Diane is a yoga instructor (she has a dedicated
studio as part of our shop) and asked many questions about his
"limberness" and weight, and their effects on his ability to ride.
This of course was discussed extensively at the time he placed his
order, and she patiently answered all of his questions, sometimes
repeatedly, and without ANY interest in having him for a student.
NEVER did Diane EVER "suggest he go home to work on his limberness".
There is always room for interpretation and, as several have pointed
out, more than one side to a story. We're not sure why Mr. Everette
felt compelled to write this second-hand story about our
"inappropriate service", but we actually need to thank him. There are
several statements and implications in his story that are factually
false and, while he chose to perpetuate them, regardless of his
knowledge of the truth, it has brought to our attention the urgency to
once again contact our customer and get the whole matter resolved.
So, thank you, Mr. Everette.

So, anyone interested in a brand-new, unridden, gorgeous green custom
Co-Motion Americano with 700c wheels, Campy triple, upright handlebars
and controls, set up for touring? We have a photograph (taken today)
available to anyone interested.

Also, for the record:
Sure, we make a living by selling and building custom bicycles, and
the more we sell the better. We however do not stock anything but
test-bikes. We therefore not only have ZERO motivation to move
inventory (we don't have) inappropriately, we have EVERY motivation to
strive to build the perfect bicycle for every client, since we're
starting from scratch every time, and want everyone to be so thrilled
that they can't stop talking about it. It's not a sales pitch, and
it's certainly not disparagement of shops who stock bikes... it's the
simple logic behind our model.

Thanks for reading.
Regards,
Brian Jenks
HubBub Custom Bicycles
http://www.hubbub.com

This reminds of something that happened to my girlfriend when she went
to the shop a few years ago to purchase a high-end cross country
racing mtb. She had done her research, saved her money, and was going
to spend more than 4k$. She is an incredibly gifted and accomplished
cyclist, but when she went to the shop and asked to ride the bike she
wanted, the sales guy said 'you don't want that' and showed her entry-
level bikes instead, probably thinking he was doing her a favor. She
left and went to another shop and bought her bike there. Whoops.

Robert

My story is that the guy at the shop tried to dissuade me from buying the
Bianchi I wanted because it didn't cost over $2,000. He said, "There aren't
any sub-$2,000 bikes worth buying." So, I left and got it at another shop.

Pat in TX

"Brian Jenks" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Oct 4, 1:31 am, "Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote:
We really don't have enough to go on here, but there *are* people in this
world who get an idea in their head and go out and do stupid things,
despite
good advise from the shop to do otherwise. Could be that the shop wanted
him
to take a bike out to try in the real world, a bike that might have been
close to what the measurements recommended, and he refused, saying don't
worry, this is what I want to do, do you want my money or not? I have
actually had to refuse selling expensive bikes once in a while to people
like that, and doing so puts you on that fine line between being
considered
patronizing vs looking out for someone's best interests.

I'd be interested in hearing more of the story.

And more of the story you shall have. Thank you, Mike (and others),
for the benefit of doubt. As some may have guessed, we at HubBub are
the shop in question.

Your suspicions are actually surprisingly close to the truth. In fact
we have known this gentleman for many years. He would come into our
shop from time to time, but we never saw him as a potential client for
one of our bikes. We like to think we treat everyone with dignity and
respect, and take their cycling aspirations seriously, but were
especially careful in his case, suspecting he may frequently encounter
less than ideal treatment elsewhere. A couple years ago he again
began asking more questions about our processes and products we
offer. We humored him for many months, sometimes answering the same
questions MANY times, several different ways. We still didn't believe
he would ever come in wanting to actually buy a bike, and we even
tried to guide him to explore a couple other shops, feeling we may not
be the most appropriate choice for him.

Eventually, he did come for a full fitting. At that point (and I
remember this) we actually had a couple dinner-table conversations
about how to get out of what appeared to be an impending sale -
admittedly a difficult choice for a tiny custom-only bike shop. As
the client somehow further convinced himself this was the right
choice, we came to the conclusion, "He wants us to build him a bike.
How is that different from every other client who asks?" Maybe our
biggest mistake was not actually coming up with a good answer to that
question. Note that he had been telling us how he had been riding
(just like all our other customers). Additionally, we have built
bikes for people with poor flexibility, with great success, and he had
nowhere near the difficulties mounting our fitting machine like the
clients with issues.

He absolutely INSISTED upon a Co-Motion Americano, a fine choice of
course, but I had hoped for a choice that offered me a little more
flexibility in meeting his needs. Now, we are big Campy fans here,
but I made clear that I felt Shimano's versatility and more extensive
offerings were more suitable to his stated cycling intentions. Yes,
he insisted on Campagnolo components as well. We discussed every
detail of the bike, and of particular interest to him were color
combinations and polished parts. He agonized over which Brooks
leather saddle to choose. We stock Brooks but special ordered at
least two before he settled on the third one currently installed.
Much as I love my Brooks saddles, we certainly didn't want him
breaking one in. He was very insistent on that too. Keep in mind
that through all of this we were STILL trying to gently convince him
to try some other options - meaning other shops which actually stock
complete bicycles.

The fit parameters were finalized, the frame designed, built, and
delivered. We treated it with FrameSaver, installed the headset, and
set the frameset (in it's box for protection) high up on a shelf in
the back. Normally we put them on display for the couple days (or
even hours) before getting built-up, but we were still waiting for
final choices on components. Eventually all the details were ironed
out - wheels, handlebars, controls, brakes, gearing, tires, SADDLE,
rack, etc. - and we built the bike, about 5 months ago. (It sat on
our shelf in the back for at least 6 months, waiting for component
choices.)

All told, the initial order was placed about 14 months ago.
Eventually we had to press him so we could complete the build. To
this day it has never even been outside the door! (except likely for a
quick test-ride by the mechanic) Customers have been oohing and
aahing over it since we completed it several months ago, some even
expressed interest in buying it. We turned them down of course,
saying it belonged to somebody! The buyer came in a couple times to
see it, and seemed to like it very much. Whenever we tried to get him
to take it home and ride it he would respond with something about how
much he was traveling. Once he called to tell us how he wouldn't be
able to take the bike yet because he had sprained his wrist.
Eventually we called and asked more forcefully that he come pick it
up, explaining how it is more vulnerable to handling by customers, and
scratches, on the showroom floor now that it is built. He did finally
come in, with a brace on his wrist, and had FAR more difficulty
mounting and dismounting the bike than he did our fitting machine. We
reluctantly lowered the saddle well below its ideal height, at his
insistence, to help him. He made the choice himself not to take the
bike home with him, yet.

Now, allow me to be especially clear:
This man knows that Diane is a yoga instructor (she has a dedicated
studio as part of our shop) and asked many questions about his
"limberness" and weight, and their effects on his ability to ride.
This of course was discussed extensively at the time he placed his
order, and she patiently answered all of his questions, sometimes
repeatedly, and without ANY interest in having him for a student.
NEVER did Diane EVER "suggest he go home to work on his limberness".
There is always room for interpretation and, as several have pointed
out, more than one side to a story. We're not sure why Mr. Everette
felt compelled to write this second-hand story about our
"inappropriate service", but we actually need to thank him. There are
several statements and implications in his story that are factually
false and, while he chose to perpetuate them, regardless of his
knowledge of the truth, it has brought to our attention the urgency to
once again contact our customer and get the whole matter resolved.
So, thank you, Mr. Everette.

So, anyone interested in a brand-new, unridden, gorgeous green custom
Co-Motion Americano with 700c wheels, Campy triple, upright handlebars
and controls, set up for touring? We have a photograph (taken today)
available to anyone interested.

Also, for the record:
Sure, we make a living by selling and building custom bicycles, and
the more we sell the better. We however do not stock anything but
test-bikes. We therefore not only have ZERO motivation to move
inventory (we don't have) inappropriately, we have EVERY motivation to
strive to build the perfect bicycle for every client, since we're
starting from scratch every time, and want everyone to be so thrilled
that they can't stop talking about it. It's not a sales pitch, and
it's certainly not disparagement of shops who stock bikes... it's the
simple logic behind our model.

Thanks for reading.
Regards,
Brian Jenks
HubBub Custom Bicycles
http://www.hubbub.com


So the old fart didn't even pay for it after he made you do all that work,
wasted your time and floor
space? I say charge his ass for labor and storage and get a court order to
ban him from within a 100 yard of your shop!

This reminds of something that happened to my girlfriend when she went
to the shop a few years ago to purchase a high-end cross country
racing mtb. She had done her research, saved her money, and was going
to spend more than 4k$. She is an incredibly gifted and accomplished
cyclist, but when she went to the shop and asked to ride the bike she
wanted, the sales guy said 'you don't want that' and showed her entry-
level bikes instead, probably thinking he was doing her a favor. She
left and went to another shop and bought her bike there. Whoops.

I don't get it. Why wouldn't they let her ride the nicer bikes? That's a bit
different than the scenario I was laying out. My issue is with someone who
is convinced that something they've never tried is going to be what they
want, and they're unwilling to take one for a test ride. That's the sort of
thing that can come back to you. But your girlfriend sounds like she was not
only fully aware of what she was getting into, but also wanted to test-ride
the bike. Strange that they'd give her grief.

The problem that many shops & customers have is that each may have a
different dream or vision of what cycling means to them. It's the
salesperson's job to figure out what the customer's dream/vision is, and
possibly expand upon it, but not, repeat not try and sell the customer on
his or her own personal dream. If the two happen to be the same, great. But
that's typically not the case.

If the person at the shop just doesn't get how you're going to ride the
bike, if they can't relate to you on such a basic level, you need to talk to
someone else there, or go elsewhere. As your girlfriend did.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA


wrote in message
s.com...
On Oct 3, 11:31 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote:
We really don't have enough to go on here, but there *are* people in this
world who get an idea in their head and go out and do stupid things,
despite
good advise from the shop to do otherwise. Could be that the shop wanted
him
to take a bike out to try in the real world, a bike that might have been
close to what the measurements recommended, and he refused, saying don't
worry, this is what I want to do, do you want my money or not? I have
actually had to refuse selling expensive bikes once in a while to people
like that, and doing so puts you on that fine line between being
considered
patronizing vs looking out for someone's best interests.

This reminds of something that happened to my girlfriend when she went
to the shop a few years ago to purchase a high-end cross country
racing mtb. She had done her research, saved her money, and was going
to spend more than 4k$. She is an incredibly gifted and accomplished
cyclist, but when she went to the shop and asked to ride the bike she
wanted, the sales guy said 'you don't want that' and showed her entry-
level bikes instead, probably thinking he was doing her a favor. She
left and went to another shop and bought her bike there. Whoops.

Robert

The problem that many shops & customers have is that each may have a
different dream or vision of what cycling means to them. It's the
salesperson's job to figure out what the customer's dream/vision is, and
possibly expand upon it, but not, repeat not try and sell the customer on
his or her own personal dream. If the two happen to be the same, great.
But that's typically not the case.
..

--Mike Jacoubowsky

Hey, that's exactly what happened to me! The guy said, "I wouldn't buy
anything under $2,000 and I'd get an Independent Fabrications or nothing at
all."

Pat in TX

"Pat" wrote in message
...

The problem that many shops & customers have is that each may have a
different dream or vision of what cycling means to them. It's the
salesperson's job to figure out what the customer's dream/vision is, and
possibly expand upon it, but not, repeat not try and sell the customer on
his or her own personal dream. If the two happen to be the same, great.
But that's typically not the case.
.

--Mike Jacoubowsky

Hey, that's exactly what happened to me! The guy said, "I wouldn't buy
anything under $2,000 and I'd get an Independent Fabrications or nothing
at all."

Pat in TX


Was he a wrench or a sales idiot? You should have asked him, Where are all
the fine Huffys? Either way, I wouldn't let him fix a flat on my bike.

On Oct 4, 8:12 pm, "Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming Edition ®"
wrote:
So the old fart didn't even pay for it after he made you do all that work,
wasted your time and floor
space? I say charge his ass for labor and storage and get a court order to
ban him from within a 100 yard of your shop!

Actually we were paid for it but, as we're the shop responsible for
the situation, the least we can do is help to sell it for him. ALL $
would go directly to the customer (or into a replacement if we could
believe it wasn't a lost cause). We are after all in a better
position to sell it than he is, and getting the cash back for him
would take some of the sting out for all involved.

It's funny you mention having him banned. I've never been pushed to
that extreme, but a close friend of ours once managed a non-cycling
sporting goods retail store in town. He identified this client in our
store, many years ago, as having been thrown out of our friend's store
for stealing socks. We kept a close eye on him for a long time, but
never had any trouble. Now, after not being able to turn him away
(throwing him out would have been easy!) we find ourselves in an
opposite sour situation.

Regards,
Brian Jenks
HubBub Custom Bicycles
www.hubbub.com

Brian Jenks wrote:
We like to think we treat everyone with dignity and
respect, and take their cycling aspirations seriously, but were
especially careful in his case, suspecting he may frequently encounter
less than ideal treatment elsewhere.

The folks "elsewhere" had this guy figured out?

When I bought a Marinoni road bike from the US importer, I paid a
deposit ($100?) when I placed the order, I paid the complete cost of the
frame when the frame was complete and ready to be built up, and I paid
the balance before the bike was shipped to me. Seems like a reasonable
way of doing business to me, and it seems to me you could have saved
yourself a fair bit of grief by doing this. I did more or less the same
thing when I bought my Riv frame, put up $300 to get my name on the
waiting list, and I think I made another payment before the frame was
painted, and paid the balance before the frame was shipped. I note that
Vanilla Cycles requires a substantial deposit to get on their waiting
list, too.

My impression is that this guy got a kick out of talking bikes, liked
the attention you gave him when he bugged you with all his variations on
the same stupid questions, and felt like quite the sophisticated cyclist
picking out all those neat components. Then when the bike was finally
finished he realized what he'd gotten himself into, got cold feet, and
looked for a way out. Telling his version of the whole sordid tale to
Mr. Everett strikes me as a good way to rationalize his crappy behavior,
and maybe get a little more attention for himself.

I encountered a few people like this gentleman during my brief retail
career (ski shops), and I suspect that high end sports shops attract a
fair number of this type of personality. I have to say, though, I don't
think I ever met quite as extreme an example as you describe.

Just out of curiosity, what made you so positive this guy wasn't a
candidate for one of your bicycles? And how gently (or firmly) did you
try to steer him to a different shop or bicycle?

mark

On Oct 4, 7:07 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote:

I don't get it. Why wouldn't they let her ride the nicer bikes? That's a bit
different than the scenario I was laying out. My issue is with someone who
is convinced that something they've never tried is going to be what they
want, and they're unwilling to take one for a test ride. That's the sort of
thing that can come back to you. But your girlfriend sounds like she was not
only fully aware of what she was getting into, but also wanted to test-ride
the bike. Strange that they'd give her grief.


I'm sure they would have let her see the bike if she had pleaded to do
it. But she didn't feel like pleading, having to testify, explain and
reassure as to her cycling ability or whatever it is that proves she
'deserves' said bicycle. I imagine such episodes happen fairly often
to female cyclists at the LBS.

The problem that many shops & customers have is that each may have a
different dream or vision of what cycling means to them. It's the
salesperson's job to figure out what the customer's dream/vision is, and
possibly expand upon it, but not, repeat not try and sell the customer on
his or her own personal dream. If the two happen to be the same, great. But
that's typically not the case.

If the person at the shop just doesn't get how you're going to ride the
bike, if they can't relate to you on such a basic level, you need to talk to
someone else there, or go elsewhere. As your girlfriend did.

I would give up on trying to figure out and facilitate the dreams of
and give temple massages and chakra therapy to your customers. If
they want nice bikes, sell em nice bikes. There are a lot worse things
than someone buying a bike that is 'too nice' for their 'needs' as
they can become inspired by that bike and grow into it in a sense, or
at least sell it to guys like me at a drastically reduced price.

I've found over the years that the shop's most experienced and
knowledgable hands are the ones least inclined to tell you what to do,
as they realize that so much in cycling comes down to personal
preference. But successful shops are stocked not just with those guys,
but with some fledgling rookie bike nerds as well. The employees that
are still learning are the ones who are really _sure_ of things if you
know what I mean, acting out in their insecurity perhaps, and it can
get pretty tiresome when someone who knows less than you gives
patronizing attitude. I think that's what my girlfriend ran into that
day.

Robert

On Oct 4, 11:47 am, "Sir Thomas of Cannondale"
wrote:
When out touring ;; I sometimes can't get my leg up over the panniers,
bicycle, etc.

So: I use a curb. Simple enough.

The guy paid $3500 for a bicycle and he is complaining?

Only in America.

=================="John Everett" wrote in message

...

I was co-leader of a Sierra Club outing in Kentucky last week. One of
our participants, upon finding out I was a cyclist, related a somewhat
disturbing story about his dealings with a bike shop in the Cleveland
area. It should be pointed out that I only received his side of the
story.

Our participant was male, 68 years old, over-weight, and demonstarted
balance problems. Seems he wanted to work on his physical condition
and decided to buy a bike. He went to what sounds like a high-end bike
shop who put him on a Size-Cycle, or Fit-Kit or one of those and did a
full measurement. Based on this they ordered a custom built Co-Motion
(Reynolds 853) which the shop built up with Campy Chorus; total cost
about $3500.

I don't know how long he's had the bike, but he hasn't ridden it yet.
Turn's out he can't get his leg over the saddle. When he took it back
to the bike shop to complain that "it didn't fit" (his perception,
since he couldn't swing his leg over the bike) the woman in the shop
suggested he go home and work on his limberness. What kind of service
is that?

Turns out one of our other participants had brought along his
Cannondale, so I borrowed it to demonstrate how to get on a bike by
laying it down, stepping over the main triangle, then lifting the bike
back up. Our Co-Motion owner managed to do this even though the 56cm
'dale was about 4cm too big for him. Hopefully upon returning home
he's managed to do this with his bike.

I'm wondering what shop (they also deal in Waterfords and other
high-end custom-built bikes) would allow a customer to order something
he pretty clearly isn't physically equipped to ride, the dismiss him
with the "limberness" comment? Of course there's always their side of
the story. ;-)

--
jeverett3ATsbcglobalDOTnet (John V. Everett)

How does a guy get to have $3500 spare when he can be talked out of it
that easily?

Donga