aluminum machining? A q that is technical but not bicyclic

In article
,
Chalo wrote:

Michael Press wrote:

Steve Jobs is smart, has a vision, and gets it done.
He hires very smart people then challenges them.
They all love what they are doing.

Except in technical support.

This much I know.

The red headed step child.
I was at Apple for a while.
The goons in technical support used to put together
fictional tech call scripts, then tape them.
They got around through the underground.
Scurrilous, insensitive, crude, impure, ...
In short rib-achingly funny.

--
Michael Press

On Oct 22, 11:17*am, "
wrote:
On Oct 22, 7:32*am, wrote:

Apple products are never cost competitive (at least on this side of
the pond),

A quick-grab, quick read look at notebook prices/features, Mac v. PC
in the USA:

*http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?
command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9023959&pageNum ber=3

(Tiny for above): http://tinyurl.com/2aeqh9

That ignores factory-installed applications. I have no idea what's
what with PC's these days, but the new Macs come with a pretty
impressive collection of apps, including Time Machine (auto backup).

At work, the difference between a loaded Dell and loaded Macbook Pro
is about 500$
That's not insignificant. Also, Dell provides us with protection
against spills, drops etc...
That's something that we can't get from Apple.



but people buy them for various reasons.

Superior user experience is up near the top of the list.

Speaking of user experience, one reason I'm sure many computer buyers
have recently "gone Mac" is the disaster that was Vista.

Agreed. Vista has been a boon to Apple.


(BTW: I've seen people say "they're the same thing" since Mac went to
Intel. They're not. But I guess that flies in some quarters)

I saw the video
and I liked the idea of less parts and an exlusive, sturdy and
beaatiful case of that laptop. It's like a titanium bicycle frame. God
awful expensive compared with an cheap aluminum frame which does the
same.

Well, I'm not sure about less parts. I've read it now requires the
removal of 56 screws to replace the keyboard on a new Macbook Pro.
Yikes. Is that an improvement from the 20 or so it used to take?
Maybe they have good reason, but I think they could take a lesson from
Dell here and offer a keyboard that can be removed with two screws, or
a hard drive that can be removed with one. It's settled down a bit,
but last year I had a lot of Apple laptops with failing drives, logic
boards, backlights etc...

I like the Apple laptops. I just wish they would improve the
serviceability of them.
I've spent a few too many evenings at the Genius Bar. I'm not sure I'd
want Apple making bike parts...

Peter.

On Oct 22, 3:44*am, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
I have a bit of an odd question with regard to laptop manufacture and
aluminum machining. It's essentially one of curiosity, but I think a few
people here may have some insight.

If you don't know, Apple just introduced some revised laptop models.
Great new features, bold design, whatever. The feature that made me sit
bolt-upright and say "no way!" was the case structure.

The old MacBook design used plastic molded cases. I think there might be
a metal inner frame, too. The "Pro" model used aluminum cases, but I'm
virtually certain they were stamped, and I think they relied on an inner
metal frame as well (depending on the year, these frames were made out
of aluminum or magnesium, I think, and presumably cast, but possibly
stamped).

This year's models are all sporting machined aluminum cases, and
apparently have no inner frame to speak of (they call it "unibody" a la
modern car designs). It appears the major components bolt more or less
directly to the body.

Web page here, including video of what may be actual manufacturing
techniques and pictures of the bare case:

http://www.apple.com/macbook/design.html

It's a clever idea, and I can see benefits. But just watch that
production video! How in the heck can they be doing CNC machining in a
production-line fashion and be cost-competitive? I would have thought
the cost and time (and manufacturing capacity?) would have been
prohibitive.

Anyone here have an insight as to how they're doing this without
spending way more money than when they were molding cases out of
plastic? I think these laptops are probably being made in the PRC,
though there's a small chance this is a Taiwanese product.

I mean, Apple's not crazy, so I assume this will all work, at least in
theory, but when did machining costs and capacities get so cheap that
they could conceive of milling out several million complex case designs
every year?

I'm surprised the chassis isn't die cast. I'd expect that would be
cheaper, and it's tolerances would be fine for that application.

CNC is great if you're doing low production things like boutique
derailleurs. It's not so economical for large production runs. And
think of the volume of scrap (chips) that they're dealing with! It
looks like over 50% of the raw material leaves as scrap.

- Frank Krygowski

On Oct 22, 12:44*am, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
Giant Snip

Ever since I first heard of Apple I have been a continuous nay-sayer.
And after all these years they continue to rake in dollars like ants
at a Brazilian picnic.
In other words, if it makes sense, they make millions.
If it doesn't make sense, they make millions.
Why fight it? Why try to understand it?

ABS

In article ,
SMS wrote:

Ryan Cousineau wrote:

I mean, Apple's not crazy, so I assume this will all work, at least in
theory, but when did machining costs and capacities get so cheap that
they could conceive of milling out several million complex case designs
every year?

There are some advantages of doing this in terms of thermals which can
get very costly when you start using heat pipes. I wonder if Apple is
using the aluminum body as a giant heat sink, in order to be able to use
a slower speed, and quieter fan.

You may be on to something. Here's a disassembly of a new MacBook:

http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/First-Lo...ody/Page-7#top

Look at the new high-power LED flashlights. They're not plastic because
they use the aluminum or steel body as a heat sink to the the LED which
generates a lot of heat at the junction. With incandescent bulbs the
heat could be dissipated forward through the lens, but not with LEDSs.

The disassembly photos show no heat pipes, just a fan that isn't
directly coupled to the CPU or graphics chip. It looks like the case is
a key heat-sink.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

In article ,
wrote:

On Wed, 22 Oct 2008 07:44:24 GMT, Ryan Cousineau
wrote:

I have a bit of an odd question with regard to laptop manufacture and
aluminum machining. It's essentially one of curiosity, but I think a few
people here may have some insight.

If you don't know, Apple just introduced some revised laptop models.
Great new features, bold design, whatever. The feature that made me sit
bolt-upright and say "no way!" was the case structure.

The old MacBook design used plastic molded cases. I think there might be
a metal inner frame, too. The "Pro" model used aluminum cases, but I'm
virtually certain they were stamped, and I think they relied on an inner
metal frame as well (depending on the year, these frames were made out
of aluminum or magnesium, I think, and presumably cast, but possibly
stamped).

This year's models are all sporting machined aluminum cases, and
apparently have no inner frame to speak of (they call it "unibody" a la
modern car designs). It appears the major components bolt more or less
directly to the body.

Web page here, including video of what may be actual manufacturing
techniques and pictures of the bare case:

http://www.apple.com/macbook/design.html

It's a clever idea, and I can see benefits. But just watch that
production video! How in the heck can they be doing CNC machining in a
production-line fashion and be cost-competitive? I would have thought
the cost and time (and manufacturing capacity?) would have been
prohibitive.

Anyone here have an insight as to how they're doing this without
spending way more money than when they were molding cases out of
plastic? I think these laptops are probably being made in the PRC,
though there's a small chance this is a Taiwanese product.

I mean, Apple's not crazy, so I assume this will all work, at least in
theory, but when did machining costs and capacities get so cheap that
they could conceive of milling out several million complex case designs
every year?

Dear Ryan,

Er, who said that they were spending less money to machine laptop
frames out of aluminum?

I don't know that the cases will be cheaper, but they're selling the new
model for about the same prices as the old ones, and the specs seem
competitive, too.

Given that this is one of Apple's top-three most important products,
they aren't likely to just plain blow it on manufacturing costs.

Or maybe the aluminum is a giant heat sink?

All signs point to yes.

The NeXT computer had an expensive and impractical cast magnesium case
that Jobs insisted had to be a perfect cube, without even an invisible
half degree tapering to help the manufacturing process--all painted
black.

The molds were hideously expensive, black is the worst choice for
hiding minor paint defects and resisting scuffing in shipping, and
there were one or two other little problems with the great new
features and bold design.

For some reason, perfect-cube magnesium computer cases painted flat
black failed to catch on.

Possibly that example is familiar?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...4681a6bbb87dba

Indeed, but the Steve Jobs who drove the creation of the NeXT Cube has a
lot of successful, well-designed products between himself and the Cube.

I don't have to carry any water for the fruit company, but the guy does
seem to have learned a few things about manufacturing processes between
then and now.

(though what it is about Steve Jobs and cubes I don't know; the Mac G4
Cube was a notorious and exceptional failure of his latest tenure as
Apple CEO.)

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 01:46:50 GMT, Ryan Cousineau
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Wed, 22 Oct 2008 07:44:24 GMT, Ryan Cousineau
wrote:

I have a bit of an odd question with regard to laptop manufacture and
aluminum machining. It's essentially one of curiosity, but I think a few
people here may have some insight.

If you don't know, Apple just introduced some revised laptop models.
Great new features, bold design, whatever. The feature that made me sit
bolt-upright and say "no way!" was the case structure.

The old MacBook design used plastic molded cases. I think there might be
a metal inner frame, too. The "Pro" model used aluminum cases, but I'm
virtually certain they were stamped, and I think they relied on an inner
metal frame as well (depending on the year, these frames were made out
of aluminum or magnesium, I think, and presumably cast, but possibly
stamped).

This year's models are all sporting machined aluminum cases, and
apparently have no inner frame to speak of (they call it "unibody" a la
modern car designs). It appears the major components bolt more or less
directly to the body.

Web page here, including video of what may be actual manufacturing
techniques and pictures of the bare case:

http://www.apple.com/macbook/design.html

It's a clever idea, and I can see benefits. But just watch that
production video! How in the heck can they be doing CNC machining in a
production-line fashion and be cost-competitive? I would have thought
the cost and time (and manufacturing capacity?) would have been
prohibitive.

Anyone here have an insight as to how they're doing this without
spending way more money than when they were molding cases out of
plastic? I think these laptops are probably being made in the PRC,
though there's a small chance this is a Taiwanese product.

I mean, Apple's not crazy, so I assume this will all work, at least in
theory, but when did machining costs and capacities get so cheap that
they could conceive of milling out several million complex case designs
every year?

Dear Ryan,

Er, who said that they were spending less money to machine laptop
frames out of aluminum?

I don't know that the cases will be cheaper, but they're selling the new
model for about the same prices as the old ones, and the specs seem
competitive, too.

Given that this is one of Apple's top-three most important products,
they aren't likely to just plain blow it on manufacturing costs.

Or maybe the aluminum is a giant heat sink?

All signs point to yes.

The NeXT computer had an expensive and impractical cast magnesium case
that Jobs insisted had to be a perfect cube, without even an invisible
half degree tapering to help the manufacturing process--all painted
black.

The molds were hideously expensive, black is the worst choice for
hiding minor paint defects and resisting scuffing in shipping, and
there were one or two other little problems with the great new
features and bold design.

For some reason, perfect-cube magnesium computer cases painted flat
black failed to catch on.

Possibly that example is familiar?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...4681a6bbb87dba

Indeed, but the Steve Jobs who drove the creation of the NeXT Cube has a
lot of successful, well-designed products between himself and the Cube.

I don't have to carry any water for the fruit company, but the guy does
seem to have learned a few things about manufacturing processes between
then and now.

(though what it is about Steve Jobs and cubes I don't know; the Mac G4
Cube was a notorious and exceptional failure of his latest tenure as
Apple CEO.)

Dear Ryan,

If there were some sound price or performance reason, Apple would
probably have mentioned it.

Whimsy, price elasticity, and the marketing department's demand for
something new every year seem more likely than any engineering or
budget explanations for carving laptop cases out of solid chunks of
aluminum.

Or maybe the new solid aluminum laptop case is much lighter than those
heavy old plastic cases?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

aka TP wrote:
[...]
Meanwhile, "have you seen any 'naked Alu' frames in the marketplace?",
similar to the polished or brushed "naked Ti" offerings?
[...]

Why, yes: http://thebikerack.com/merchant/130/images/large/gold_rush.jpg.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
If you are not a part of the solution, you are a part of the precipitate.

Tom Ace wrote:
On Oct 22, 12:44 am, Ryan Cousineau wrote:

I mean, Apple's not crazy, so I assume this will all work, at least in
theory, but when did machining costs and capacities get so cheap that
they could conceive of milling out several million complex case designs
every year?

Hard disk drives have had intricately machined aluminum cases for
years.

Tom Ace


they're /finished/ with machining operations, but the bulk of the
shaping is done by casting. finish is much cheaper/simpler than forming.

On Wed, 22 Oct 2008 20:01:26 -0600, wrote:

On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 01:46:50 GMT, Ryan Cousineau
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Wed, 22 Oct 2008 07:44:24 GMT, Ryan Cousineau
wrote:

I have a bit of an odd question with regard to laptop manufacture and
aluminum machining. It's essentially one of curiosity, but I think a few
people here may have some insight.

If you don't know, Apple just introduced some revised laptop models.
Great new features, bold design, whatever. The feature that made me sit
bolt-upright and say "no way!" was the case structure.

The old MacBook design used plastic molded cases. I think there might be
a metal inner frame, too. The "Pro" model used aluminum cases, but I'm
virtually certain they were stamped, and I think they relied on an inner
metal frame as well (depending on the year, these frames were made out
of aluminum or magnesium, I think, and presumably cast, but possibly
stamped).

This year's models are all sporting machined aluminum cases, and
apparently have no inner frame to speak of (they call it "unibody" a la
modern car designs). It appears the major components bolt more or less
directly to the body.

Web page here, including video of what may be actual manufacturing
techniques and pictures of the bare case:

http://www.apple.com/macbook/design.html

It's a clever idea, and I can see benefits. But just watch that
production video! How in the heck can they be doing CNC machining in a
production-line fashion and be cost-competitive? I would have thought
the cost and time (and manufacturing capacity?) would have been
prohibitive.

Anyone here have an insight as to how they're doing this without
spending way more money than when they were molding cases out of
plastic? I think these laptops are probably being made in the PRC,
though there's a small chance this is a Taiwanese product.

I mean, Apple's not crazy, so I assume this will all work, at least in
theory, but when did machining costs and capacities get so cheap that
they could conceive of milling out several million complex case designs
every year?

Dear Ryan,

Er, who said that they were spending less money to machine laptop
frames out of aluminum?

I don't know that the cases will be cheaper, but they're selling the new
model for about the same prices as the old ones, and the specs seem
competitive, too.

Given that this is one of Apple's top-three most important products,
they aren't likely to just plain blow it on manufacturing costs.

Or maybe the aluminum is a giant heat sink?

All signs point to yes.

The NeXT computer had an expensive and impractical cast magnesium case
that Jobs insisted had to be a perfect cube, without even an invisible
half degree tapering to help the manufacturing process--all painted
black.

The molds were hideously expensive, black is the worst choice for
hiding minor paint defects and resisting scuffing in shipping, and
there were one or two other little problems with the great new
features and bold design.

For some reason, perfect-cube magnesium computer cases painted flat
black failed to catch on.

Possibly that example is familiar?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...4681a6bbb87dba

Indeed, but the Steve Jobs who drove the creation of the NeXT Cube has a
lot of successful, well-designed products between himself and the Cube.

I don't have to carry any water for the fruit company, but the guy does
seem to have learned a few things about manufacturing processes between
then and now.

(though what it is about Steve Jobs and cubes I don't know; the Mac G4
Cube was a notorious and exceptional failure of his latest tenure as
Apple CEO.)

Dear Ryan,

If there were some sound price or performance reason, Apple would
probably have mentioned it.

Whimsy, price elasticity, and the marketing department's demand for
something new every year seem more likely than any engineering or
budget explanations for carving laptop cases out of solid chunks of
aluminum.

Or maybe the new solid aluminum laptop case is much lighter than those
heavy old plastic cases?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

It may help to quote Apple's explanation:

"When you have multiple parts that are fastened together, tolerances
don’t need to be perfect. You have wiggle room, both literally and
figuratively. But when one part is responsible for many functions,
it’s critical to manufacture that part with absolute precision, down
to the micron. Every time. Millions of times over. There was only one
way to achieve this level of precision: mill the unibody from a solid
block of aluminum using computer numerical control, or CNC, machines —
the kind used by the aerospace industry to build mission-critical
spacecraft components."
http://www.apple.com/macbook/design.html

Yikes! None of that wiggle room when perfection is required! Absolute
precision, down to the micron! Just like mission critical spacecraft
components!

Cheers,

Carl Fogel