Watching out for cyclists

On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 08:03:21 -0700 (PDT), Steve Weeks
wrote:

On Friday, March 19, 2021 at 9:01:54 PM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Gee, I thought that drivers were supposed to watch out for bicyclists.

There's an effort to promote the "Dutch Reach" (https://www.dutchreach.org/), which might help it widely implemented. I don't hold out much hope for this though.

Thanks. I hadn't heard of that. I've been doing a variation of that
idea since about 1980, when I was a passenger in a car where the
driver suddenly opened his door, which was then removed from the car
body by a passing truck. The car and I were the only ones injured.
The truck lost some paint from the front bumper. I had unbuckled my
seat belt and bounced off the windshield with my head. Lesson
learned.

My method is to grab the door handle using the traditional US method
with the left hand. However, instead of extending my left arm and
pushing the door open, I leave my arm on the arm rest. That opens the
door as far as I can reach with my elbow. I then leave it there for
about 5 seconds, which is usually sufficient to warn approaching
cyclists and automobile drivers that the door might open in their
face. I then open the door a bit more, swing my feet into the gap
between, while keeping the door as close to me as possible. I can
then look for approaching traffic and fully open the door as needed.

This won't do much for bicycle riders forced to ride very close to my
car, but does a decent job of warning and avoiding approaching cars.
It also works well in parking lots where "grab the parking place" is
the common practice.

Methods patent pending.

--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 12:35:24 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 08:03:21 -0700 (PDT), Steve Weeks
wrote:

On Friday, March 19, 2021 at 9:01:54 PM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Gee, I thought that drivers were supposed to watch out for bicyclists.

There's an effort to promote the "Dutch Reach" (https://www.dutchreach.org/), which might help it widely implemented. I don't hold out much hope for this though.

Thanks. I hadn't heard of that. I've been doing a variation of that
idea since about 1980, when I was a passenger in a car where the
driver suddenly opened his door, which was then removed from the car
body by a passing truck. The car and I were the only ones injured.
The truck lost some paint from the front bumper. I had unbuckled my
seat belt and bounced off the windshield with my head. Lesson
learned.

My method is to grab the door handle using the traditional US method
with the left hand. However, instead of extending my left arm and
pushing the door open, I leave my arm on the arm rest. That opens the
door as far as I can reach with my elbow. I then leave it there for
about 5 seconds, which is usually sufficient to warn approaching
cyclists and automobile drivers that the door might open in their
face. I then open the door a bit more, swing my feet into the gap
between, while keeping the door as close to me as possible. I can
then look for approaching traffic and fully open the door as needed.

This won't do much for bicycle riders forced to ride very close to my
car, but does a decent job of warning and avoiding approaching cars.
It also works well in parking lots where "grab the parking place" is
the common practice.

Methods patent pending.

Why not just look? We have Honda HR-VC and I find it is no problem at
all to open the door a crack and peer out to see if anything is coming
that might hit the door. Or me.

Of course there is the problem that one has to turn one's head but
that can be overcome with proper exercise and practice.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 11:33:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/19/2021 10:01 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, March 19, 2021 at 8:46:18 p.m. UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 12:41:33 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Volvo claims its cars will watch out for cyclists:
https://www.news24.com/wheels/news/g...ads-20210317-2

But it's a bit disturbing to see cyclists in its video riding in the
door zone. Too many cyclists don't realize the risk that entails.
Gee, I didn't know that cyclists had to have someone watch out for
them.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Gee, I thought that drivers were supposed to watch out for bicyclists.

This is getting to be a more important issue. It's sort of a subset of
the Self Driving Car issue.

It's been pointed out that there's no national standard for "self
driving cars," at least as far as detecting bicyclists and pedestrians.
Conceivably one company could have a system whose cars diligently yield
to bicyclists and another company's system could fail to recognize them
half the time; or fail to recognize (say) adult trikes, bikes with
trailers, tandems, etc.

The same problem could exist with a non-autonomous system that's
supposed to augment rather than replace the driver. And I suspect that
most drivers will eventually rely heavily on these driver-assist
features, and compensate by giving much less attention to their driving.
This is risk compensation, and it's what humans do.

Perhaps it will still be a net gain in safety for cyclists and for
pedestrians (who are at much higher risk than cyclists). That is, maybe
a dozing driver plus an AI system with sensors will still do better than
today's average driver. But I think it bears watching.


I don't know Frank, but my theory is that on a bicycle I am, pretty
much, the smallest thing on the road and the most likely to get
damaged in any collision so rather than require someone to take the
responsibility to look out for me I look out of myself. And, to be
frank I think that any cyclist that doesn't do the same is just plain
stupid!

--
Cheers,

John B.

On 3/20/2021 7:07 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 11:33:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/19/2021 10:01 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, March 19, 2021 at 8:46:18 p.m. UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 12:41:33 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Volvo claims its cars will watch out for cyclists:
https://www.news24.com/wheels/news/g...ads-20210317-2

But it's a bit disturbing to see cyclists in its video riding in the
door zone. Too many cyclists don't realize the risk that entails.
Gee, I didn't know that cyclists had to have someone watch out for
them.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Gee, I thought that drivers were supposed to watch out for bicyclists.

This is getting to be a more important issue. It's sort of a subset of
the Self Driving Car issue.

It's been pointed out that there's no national standard for "self
driving cars," at least as far as detecting bicyclists and pedestrians.
Conceivably one company could have a system whose cars diligently yield
to bicyclists and another company's system could fail to recognize them
half the time; or fail to recognize (say) adult trikes, bikes with
trailers, tandems, etc.

The same problem could exist with a non-autonomous system that's
supposed to augment rather than replace the driver. And I suspect that
most drivers will eventually rely heavily on these driver-assist
features, and compensate by giving much less attention to their driving.
This is risk compensation, and it's what humans do.

Perhaps it will still be a net gain in safety for cyclists and for
pedestrians (who are at much higher risk than cyclists). That is, maybe
a dozing driver plus an AI system with sensors will still do better than
today's average driver. But I think it bears watching.


I don't know Frank, but my theory is that on a bicycle I am, pretty
much, the smallest thing on the road and the most likely to get
damaged in any collision so rather than require someone to take the
responsibility to look out for me I look out of myself. And, to be
frank I think that any cyclist that doesn't do the same is just plain
stupid!

Of course I look out for myself. Beyond that, I help motorists look out
for me. There are ways to do that.

We can, and probably should, discuss in detail. I think without some
detail, "look out for yourself" is too vague to do any good.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, March 20, 2021 at 2:35:31 PM UTC-5, wrote:

In Illinois, the responsibility lies with the person opening the door into traffic to be sure the coast is clear:

Section 11-1407 of the Illinois Vehicle Code and Section 9-80-035 of Municipal Code of Chicago make it illegal to open a vehicle door into traffic with the same statutory language:
"No person shall open the door of a vehicle on the side available to moving traffic unless and until it is reasonably safe to do so, and can be done without interfering with the movement of other traffic, nor shall any person leave a door open on the side of a vehicle available to moving traffic for a period of time longer than necessary to load or unload passengers."

I believe the fine for opening a door into traffic is $1,000, raised from $500 a few years ago. Most motorists do not know this.

On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 18:38:35 -0700 (PDT), Steve Weeks
wrote:

On Saturday, March 20, 2021 at 2:35:31 PM UTC-5, wrote:

In Illinois, the responsibility lies with the person opening the door into traffic to be sure the coast is clear:

Section 11-1407 of the Illinois Vehicle Code and Section 9-80-035 of Municipal Code of Chicago make it illegal to open a vehicle door into traffic with the same statutory language:
"No person shall open the door of a vehicle on the side available to moving traffic unless and until it is reasonably safe to do so, and can be done without interfering with the movement of other traffic, nor shall any person leave a door open on the side of a vehicle available to moving traffic for a period of time longer than necessary to load or unload passengers."

I believe the fine for opening a door into traffic is $1,000, raised from $500 a few years ago. Most motorists do not know this.

California has a similar law:
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=VEH&sectionNum= 22517
No person shall open the door of a vehicle on the side
available to moving traffic unless it is reasonably safe
to do so and can be done without interfering with the
movement of such traffic, nor shall any person leave
a door open on the side of a vehicle available to moving
traffic for a period of time longer than necessary to
load or unload passengers.

California ‘dooring’ Law Places Liability with Motorists, not
Bicyclists
https://krasneylaw.net/blog/california-dooring-law-places-liability-with-motorists-not-bicyclists/
The fine seems to be $146 plus fees and taxes, which are usually much
larger than the fine.


--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Saturday, March 20, 2021 at 10:04:51 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 18:38:35 -0700 (PDT), Steve Weeks
I believe the fine for opening a door into traffic is $1,000, raised from $500 a few years ago. Most motorists do not know this.
I forgot to mention that the fine applies only if the open door is hit by a cyclist or another vehicle. In the case of a "dooring" incident, the problem is more likely to be getting law enforcement to respond, and this will probably be determined by the occurrence of injuries to the cyclist. The one time I was doored, I wasn't badly hurt (more damage to the car's door!) and I had a patient coming in a half hour, so I bailed on calling the police.

On 3/21/2021 11:49 AM, Steve Weeks wrote:
On Saturday, March 20, 2021 at 10:04:51 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 18:38:35 -0700 (PDT), Steve Weeks
I believe the fine for opening a door into traffic is $1,000, raised from $500 a few years ago. Most motorists do not know this.
I forgot to mention that the fine applies only if the open door is hit by a cyclist or another vehicle. In the case of a "dooring" incident, the problem is more likely to be getting law enforcement to respond, and this will probably be determined by the occurrence of injuries to the cyclist. The one time I was doored, I wasn't badly hurt (more damage to the car's door!) and I had a patient coming in a half hour, so I bailed on calling the police.

This has been a bit of controversy in the bike advocacy world. If a
cyclist takes a "how to ride in traffic" class from a reputable source,
they'll almost certainly be instructed to never ride in the door zone.
(Older advice, to watch carefully and be ready to stop, is in violation
of laws of physics.)

But it's not uncommon to have city bike lanes painted in the door zone.
And one private email list for LAB certified instructors once got an
anonymous post - probably from a LAB official - defending that placement
of bike lanes.

One colleague of mine realized that the standard police form for
reporting traffic crashes was not capturing _any_ dooring incidents. The
rules for the form were to use it only in crashes between "vehicles in
transport." The logic (if you can call it that) was that the parked car
was not "in transport" so a dooring crash didn't count - even though
they have caused fatalities and many serious injuries.

Then someone uncovered the fact that Chicago (IIRC) did gather data on
dooring crashes. They found that they comprised over 20% of the car-bike
crashes in that city. The city is a bit notorious about painting bike
lanes in the door zone, so that may have contributed.

Stay out of the door zone.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sun, 21 Mar 2021 06:01:27 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Why not just look? We have Honda HR-VC and I find it is no problem at
all to open the door a crack and peer out to see if anything is coming
that might hit the door. Or me.

Of course there is the problem that one has to turn one's head but
that can be overcome with proper exercise and practice.

Good guess. Turning my head in either direction is a problem. I did
something to my neck in the distant past, that initially didn't limit
my range of motion, but did add a little pain when it hit the
rotational limit switches in my neck. As I became older, the range of
motion decreased slightly, and the pain increased. That's when I
contrived my method of partly opening the car door and looking back.

About 10 years ago, I did something to my left neck tendons or
muscles. It was quite painful, but hot packs, massage, TheraCane,
https://www.amazon.com/Thera-Cane-JMAS5000-Massager/dp/B000PRMCJU
exercise, and muscle relaxants made it tolerable until I recovered. I
then did the same thing to my right neck tendons and muscles, and had
to repeat everything. My current theory is that I need a new bed.

Today, I'm about where I was 10 years ago, before I mangled my neck.
However, my habit of carefully opening the car door persists. I don't
know if it ever prevented "dooring" a bicyclist, but I like to think
it did some good.



--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Mon, 22 Mar 2021 14:08:17 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sun, 21 Mar 2021 06:01:27 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Why not just look? We have Honda HR-VC and I find it is no problem at
all to open the door a crack and peer out to see if anything is coming
that might hit the door. Or me.

Of course there is the problem that one has to turn one's head but
that can be overcome with proper exercise and practice.

Good guess. Turning my head in either direction is a problem. I did
something to my neck in the distant past, that initially didn't limit
my range of motion, but did add a little pain when it hit the
rotational limit switches in my neck. As I became older, the range of
motion decreased slightly, and the pain increased. That's when I
contrived my method of partly opening the car door and looking back.

About 10 years ago, I did something to my left neck tendons or
muscles. It was quite painful, but hot packs, massage, TheraCane,
https://www.amazon.com/Thera-Cane-JMAS5000-Massager/dp/B000PRMCJU
exercise, and muscle relaxants made it tolerable until I recovered. I
then did the same thing to my right neck tendons and muscles, and had
to repeat everything. My current theory is that I need a new bed.

Today, I'm about where I was 10 years ago, before I mangled my neck.
However, my habit of carefully opening the car door persists. I don't
know if it ever prevented "dooring" a bicyclist, but I like to think
it did some good.

I suppose one thing here in Bangkok is that traffic is normally so
dense that if you were to parallel park on most streets and gaily
opened the door to leap into the fray another car would likely hit the
door... and undoubtedly rip it off and main whoever was opening it.

When we lived down south in Phuket there was one village I used to
ride through that had very limited on-the-street parking and people
used to park on a small bridge just near the bank to run in and hit
the ATM. It is illegal to park on a bridge, but "It will only take a
minute", and in the mean time the bridge became a very narrow two lane
bottle neck and while there was, barely, room for two cars to pass
each other there was very little clearance and it was very noticeable
that people parking on the bridge were extremely careful about opening
doors :-)

It was kind of fun to come riding a bicycle over that bridge right
next to the cars and see some open the door just a tiny bit, see you
and then wait until you were past to get out of the car.... Not saying
that the Big Semi right behind you had no effect but...
--
Cheers,

John B.