two odd wheel-building techniques

While snuffling around the internet, I found this page,
which has links to two pictures that show what seem like
unusual wheel-building details:

http://www.spokeswagon.com/spokeswag...m&pg=tradition

or

http://tinyurl.com/4tx6h

Click on the blue words in :

The builder adjusts spoke line and may add washers between
the spoke head and hub flange to limit movement within the
hub hole."

Then click on the blue words in:

The more stable the elbow within the hub hole the less
likely it will "work harden" and break, a common cause of
spoke failure. Using a special punch, the builder sets the
spoke head in the hub hole to assure it is well seated and
won't move when the wheel is tensioned . . .

Are the washers and the punch common wheel-building
techniques, snake-oil, or what?

Carl Fogel

Wrote:
While snuffling around the internet, I found this page,
which has links to two pictures that show what seem like
unusual wheel-building details:

http://tinyurl.com/4tx6h

or

http://tinyurl.com/4tx6h

Click on the blue words in :

The builder adjusts spoke line and may add washers between
the spoke head and hub flange to limit movement within the
hub hole."

Then click on the blue words in:

The more stable the elbow within the hub hole the less
likely it will "work harden" and break, a common cause of
spoke failure. Using a special punch, the builder sets the
spoke head in the hub hole to assure it is well seated and
won't move when the wheel is tensioned . . .

Are the washers and the punch common wheel-building
techniques, snake-oil, or what?

Carl Fogel

Washers are highly recommended by both DT and Sapim.... and I use them
especially with certain spokes and/or certain spoke hub combinations.
I also use the punch and other setting techniques..

Elbow length and spoke hole diameters differ and make certain
combinations quite snug without washers and setting with a punch.
As an aside, DT sell a punch that has a nice end that conforms to the
shape of a spoke head. They also sell spoke washers... but DT in the
US only brings in the washers suitable for 14 & 15 g spokes.... even
though they make them for 13 g spokes like Alpine III would used...
As another aside, Alpine III have longer head to elbow distance than
DT's current Revision 2 spokes in most of the remainder of their line.

I don't think it is "snake oil" at all, but maybe I am baffled with my
limited understanding and sucess over many wheels and miles.


--
daveornee

wrote:
While snuffling around the internet, I found this page,
which has links to two pictures that show what seem like
unusual wheel-building details:

http://www.spokeswagon.com/spokeswag...m&pg=tradition

or

http://tinyurl.com/4tx6h

Click on the blue words in :

The builder adjusts spoke line and may add washers between
the spoke head and hub flange to limit movement within the
hub hole."

Then click on the blue words in:

The more stable the elbow within the hub hole the less
likely it will "work harden" and break, a common cause of
spoke failure. Using a special punch, the builder sets the
spoke head in the hub hole to assure it is well seated and
won't move when the wheel is tensioned . . .

Are the washers and the punch common wheel-building
techniques, snake-oil, or what?

The punch is snake oil, and can actually damage the flange
if over done.

There is some utility to spoke head washers, but only in
certain circumstances, and not in the way the web page
suggests. If the flange is unusually thin, or the bent
portion of the spoke unusually long, a washer (or two) can
pull the elbow in closer to the flange, supporting the elbow
more evenly. Also, if the spoke holes are unusually large,
a washer (or two) can fill in some space, to support the
head a bit more evenly. For a flange/hole/spoke combination
that is well matched (for example, current Shimano or
Campagnolo hubs and DT spokes), there is no need to use washers.

A few years ago, DT increased the elbow length on their
spokes. To seat the elbow against the flange well, many
wheel builders resorted to using spoke head washers. After
many complaints from their customers, DT went back to an
elbow length very close to their previous length, and spoke
head washers have generally not been required for recently
produced spokes. (Unfortunately, there are probably some of
the old long-elbow stock still floating around.)


The idea that spokes "work harden and break" in use is a
common misconception by those who do not understand metal
fatigue. It is unfortunately common that the mechanisms of
wheel failure are not understood by wheelbuilding "experts".
Take for example this other nugget of wisdom in the web page:

"Machines also do a poor job at sufficiently 'stress
relieving' the wheel to remove spoke wind up."

Mark McMaster

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 16:02:08 -0600, wrote:

The more stable the elbow within the hub hole the less
likely it will "work harden" and break, a common cause of
spoke failure. Using a special punch, the builder sets the
spoke head in the hub hole to assure it is well seated and
won't move when the wheel is tensioned . . .

Are the washers and the punch common wheel-building
techniques, snake-oil, or what?

Unless there is a gross mis-match in the diameters of the holes in the
hubshell and the spokes inserted therein, such measures are described
by

"To gild refined gold, to paint the lily,
To throw a perfume on the violet,
To smooth the ice, or add another hue
Unto the rainbow, or with taper-light
To seek the beauteous eye of heaven to garnish,
Is wasteful and ridiculous excess."

King John. Act iv. Sc. 2.
Edward de Vere


-------------------------------
John Dacey
Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
http://www.businesscycles.com
Since 1983
Our catalog of track equipment: online since 1996
-------------------------------

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 19:21:33 -0400, John Dacey
wrote:

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 16:02:08 -0600, wrote:

The more stable the elbow within the hub hole the less
likely it will "work harden" and break, a common cause of
spoke failure. Using a special punch, the builder sets the
spoke head in the hub hole to assure it is well seated and
won't move when the wheel is tensioned . . .

Are the washers and the punch common wheel-building
techniques, snake-oil, or what?

Unless there is a gross mis-match in the diameters of the holes in the
hubshell and the spokes inserted therein, such measures are described
by

"To gild refined gold, to paint the lily,
To throw a perfume on the violet,
To smooth the ice, or add another hue
Unto the rainbow, or with taper-light
To seek the beauteous eye of heaven to garnish,
Is wasteful and ridiculous excess."

King John. Act iv. Sc. 2.
Edward de Vere


-------------------------------
John Dacey

Dear Eddie,

Nonsense--anyone can see that you're actually Izaak Walton.

George B. Shaw

Carl Fogel writes:

While snuffling around the internet, I found this page, which has
links to two pictures that show what seem like unusual
wheel-building details:

http://tinyurl.com/4tx6h

Click on the blue words in :

"The builder adjusts spoke line and may add washers between the
spoke head and hub flange to limit movement within the hub hole."

That may sound good but spoke elbows don't move once the spoke is
tensioned. The only effective change washers makes is that of a
shorter elbow or a thicker flange. The reason we saw, and maybe still
see, spokes with too long an elbow is that machine lacing is difficult
with spokes with ideal length elbow and flanges with ideal size spoke
holes, both of which are scarce these days, the biggest consumers of
these products are machine built wheels they request these poor fits.

Then click on the blue words in:

The more stable the elbow within the hub hole the less likely it
will "work harden" and break, a common cause of spoke failure. Using
a special punch, the builder sets the spoke head in the hub hole to
assure it is well seated and won't move when the wheel is
tensioned...

Well that's bogus. Spoke will not work harden in use although they
may fail from fatigue. I think it's old mechanics jargon and myth and
lore from the days when fatigue failures were routinely attributed to
"look the axle crystallized and broke here" when in fact a fatigue
failure always exposes the crystal structure because it is inter-grain
boundaries that fail most easily in a metal.

Are the washers and the punch common wheel-building techniques,
snake-oil, or what?

As I said, they are a crutch for long elbow spokes or too thin a
flange.

Jobst Brandt

wrote:
Carl Fogel writes:


While snuffling around the internet, I found this page, which has
links to two pictures that show what seem like unusual
wheel-building details:


http://tinyurl.com/4tx6h


Click on the blue words in :


"The builder adjusts spoke line and may add washers between the
spoke head and hub flange to limit movement within the hub hole."


That may sound good but spoke elbows don't move once the spoke is
tensioned.

sorry, that's not true. the fact that spokes fatigue at this point is
proof. spokes my not move in a readily visible way, just as a fatigued
crank spindle may not "move" in a readily visible way, but the very
existance of fatigue is as good an evidence of "movement" as you'll ever
get.

The only effective change washers makes is that of a
shorter elbow or a thicker flange. The reason we saw, and maybe still
see, spokes with too long an elbow is that machine lacing is difficult
with spokes with ideal length elbow and flanges with ideal size spoke
holes, both of which are scarce these days, the biggest consumers of
these products are machine built wheels they request these poor fits.


Then click on the blue words in:


The more stable the elbow within the hub hole the less likely it
will "work harden" and break, a common cause of spoke failure. Using
a special punch, the builder sets the spoke head in the hub hole to
assure it is well seated and won't move when the wheel is
tensioned...


Well that's bogus. Spoke will not work harden in use although they
may fail from fatigue. I think it's old mechanics jargon and myth and
lore from the days when fatigue failures were routinely attributed to
"look the axle crystallized and broke here" when in fact a fatigue
failure always exposes the crystal structure because it is inter-grain
boundaries that fail most easily in a metal.


Are the washers and the punch common wheel-building techniques,
snake-oil, or what?


As I said, they are a crutch for long elbow spokes or too thin a
flange.

Jobst Brandt

Mark McMaster wrote in message ...
The idea that spokes "work harden and break" in use is a
common misconception by those who do not understand metal
fatigue. It is unfortunately common that the mechanisms of
wheel failure are not understood by wheelbuilding "experts".
Take for example this other nugget of wisdom in the web page:

Please explain how a spoke subjected to a rocking motion eventually fails
due to fatigue, preferably in ten words.

Trevor

Wrote:
While snuffling around the internet, I found this page,
which has links to two pictures that show what seem like
unusual wheel-building details:

http://tinyurl.com/4tx6h

or

http://tinyurl.com/4tx6h

Click on the blue words in :

The builder adjusts spoke line and may add washers between
the spoke head and hub flange to limit movement within the
hub hole."

Then click on the blue words in:

The more stable the elbow within the hub hole the less
likely it will "work harden" and break, a common cause of
spoke failure. Using a special punch, the builder sets the
spoke head in the hub hole to assure it is well seated and
won't move when the wheel is tensioned . . .

Are the washers and the punch common wheel-building
techniques, snake-oil, or what?

Carl Fogel
"Why do spokes break?

Spokes always break as the result of an irregularity in the whee
spider.

Cause 1

Play between the hub and the spoke. Each spoke is subjected to one loa
cycle (loading/unloading) during each complete rotation of the wheel.

Each spoke in a bicycle wheel that has been ridden over 2000 km, fo
example, has experienced one million load changes.

If there is even the slightest play between the spoke and the hu
flange, a broken spoke is just a question of time. The spok
continually jerks back and forth in the flange, which subjects th
spoke elbow to massive stress. This causes the material to becom
brittle, the spoke can no longer bear the load and breaks at the elbow


Remedy

Place washers underneath the head of any spoke where play is felt a
the hub flange. "

Above quoted from the FAQ section of DT Swiss

"Hub hole suitability Hold the hub flange horizontally. Put the spoke
with the head inside, a little higher. While centring, you should pus
on the hub lightly; the spokes will easily adjust themselves
(Attention: do not push so hard that the spokes bend!).
Using oversized hub holes is an easy solution. However, this will caus
a lot of play and is not recommended.

Consider the use of spoke washers

Too much tension on the spoke head will also cause problems.
Ideal hub hole Ø equals spoke thread Ø + 0.1 mm (eg. spoke thread o
14G/2 mm measures thread 2.25 mm + 0.1 = 2.35 mm: max. hole Ø 2.5
mm)."

Above quoted from the "checklist" section of Sapim's site.

The thickness (from 2.0 to 4.0 mm on samples I have measured) of th
flange and spoke hole size help in determining the use of spoke hea
washers. Also, there are at least 3 different spoke head to elbo
dimension on DT spokes varying at least .85 mm from shortest t
longest. Since, there are these differences and differences in hu
flange thicknesses and spoke hole diameters as well as spoke diameter
at the hub end; you must make some accomodation for these differences.
I will disagree with Jobst's statement that once a spoke is tensione
it's elbow doesn't move.
I move them by laterally,torsionally, and radially loading the wheel.
I minimize the movement by spoke alignment and proper tensioning.
I also use spoke head washers and setting techniques to minimize th
movement.
And to Mark's comment on " The punch is snake oil, and can actuall
damage the flange if over done."
.... yes you could do damage to the flange if it is ovedone, but
don't think we are talking about holding the hub in a vise or on a
anvil while hitting the puch with a metal hammer. I give the spok
heads a solid strike with a properly aligned puch fron the blow of
plastic headed hammer.

I have yet to find a hub with too small a hole to fit the roll threade
end (2.25 mm) of a 14 g spoke through.
I have yet to find a hub where the flange is too thick.... even the 4.
mm ones from Phil Wood.

I still don't think there is snake oil or even linseed oil involve
here

--
daveornee

wrote:

snip
The builder adjusts spoke line and may add washers between
the spoke head and hub flange to limit movement within the
hub hole."

Then click on the blue words in:

The more stable the elbow within the hub hole the less
likely it will "work harden" and break, a common cause of
spoke failure. Using a special punch, the builder sets the
spoke head in the hub hole to assure it is well seated and
won't move when the wheel is tensioned . . .

Are the washers and the punch common wheel-building
techniques, snake-oil, or what?

I've heard of this being used for spokes with a poorly formed, large
radius, elbow. The best spokes (like DT) lie very close to the flange
anyway.