FREEMAP: free mapping for walkers/cyclists + a couple of questions

Hello,

I mentioned some time ago on uk.rec.walking that I was thinking of
developing a free online mapping service for walkers and off-road
cyclists, showing all the footpaths and bridleways in a given area -
on a more rough scale than OS maps but without the copyright issues.
Well, I've been doing a fair bit of work on this in the last couple of
months and a prototype is available at http://www.freemap.org.uk.
There is hardly any data at the moment (just a small amount - around 8
paths - in the vicinity of Fernhurst, West Sussex) but the engine is
quite advanced. Try going to the site (BTW, the user interface isn't
finished yet) and moving around with the arrows, scaling the map,
clicking on a feature (e.g. a village, pub or hill) and selecting "Get
Features" to list the features in an area. There is also a distance
calculator: try dragging with the right mouse button.

I hope to expand it to include B and Bs and also a database of
suggested walks in a given area.

One question I would like to ask. The underlying code works by storing
features, path junctions and path/road junctions in a database as grid
references, then drawing the map by "joining the dots" so to speak.
Thus it is rougher than an OS map but still of value when looking up
what paths go where in a given area. I presume it is not against OS
copyright to use grid references? Could anyone advise? If it was I
could always redo it to use latitude/longitude.

Thanks,
Nick

On 7 Mar 2004 02:00:34 -0800, in
,
(Nick) wrote:

I mentioned some time ago on uk.rec.walking that I was thinking of
developing a free online mapping service for walkers and off-road
cyclists, showing all the footpaths and bridleways in a given area -
on a more rough scale than OS maps but without the copyright issues.
Well, I've been doing a fair bit of work on this in the last couple of
months and a prototype is available at http://www.freemap.org.uk.

Reminds me of autoroute before Microsoft bought it. Is the idea for
people to submit their own data to you based on their own local area?

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appears in my inbox is mine to do what I like with.
Anything which is sent to me (whether intended or not)
may, if I so desire, form a legal and binding contract.

Nick,
nice to see you developing beyond Mapmaker - I can remember when you rolled
that out and the idea was a clever one, at the right sort of level.

To answer your questions - I don't think OS "own" the Grid Ref concept,
it's widely used across the world, and I would have thought any copyright
that may have existed in the past would have been on patent, rather than
any other sort of commercial ownership. No doubt others on this NG will
correct me if I 'm wrong.

I think the main issues you'll have with this:
1. The OS spent a lot of money on initial population of the geographic data
base -have you thought how you plan to handle this?
2. There's already alternatives to this approach (Mulitmap/Autoroute etc)
that have a similar idea, but not necessarily the same level of walker
specific detail.
What makes your approach different?

Now if this a 3d mapper ............ ;-)

If you want an objective tester/reviewer leave a note here and I'll let you
have my e-mail address - this looks like it has potential, but I'm not sure
yet of where it's going

Well done anyway - now get out there walking!

Bryan
Durzet

"Nick" wrote in message
m...
Hello,

I mentioned some time ago on uk.rec.walking that I was thinking of
developing a free online mapping service for walkers and off-road
cyclists, showing all the footpaths and bridleways in a given area -
on a more rough scale than OS maps but without the copyright issues.
Well, I've been doing a fair bit of work on this in the last couple of
months and a prototype is available at http://www.freemap.org.uk.
There is hardly any data at the moment (just a small amount - around 8
paths - in the vicinity of Fernhurst, West Sussex) but the engine is
quite advanced. Try going to the site (BTW, the user interface isn't
finished yet) and moving around with the arrows, scaling the map,
clicking on a feature (e.g. a village, pub or hill) and selecting "Get
Features" to list the features in an area. There is also a distance
calculator: try dragging with the right mouse button.

I hope to expand it to include B and Bs and also a database of
suggested walks in a given area.

One question I would like to ask. The underlying code works by storing
features, path junctions and path/road junctions in a database as grid
references, then drawing the map by "joining the dots" so to speak.
Thus it is rougher than an OS map but still of value when looking up
what paths go where in a given area. I presume it is not against OS
copyright to use grid references? Could anyone advise? If it was I
could always redo it to use latitude/longitude.

Thanks,
Nick

Nick wrote on 7 Mar 2004 02:00:34 -0800....
One question I would like to ask. The underlying code works by storing
features, path junctions and path/road junctions in a database as grid
references, then drawing the map by "joining the dots" so to speak.
Thus it is rougher than an OS map but still of value when looking up
what paths go where in a given area. I presume it is not against OS
copyright to use grid references? Could anyone advise? If it was I
could always redo it to use latitude/longitude.

This was discussed recently in u.r.w. See http://tinyurl.com/2djtj

Did your underlying data come from an OS map? Are you then using it
to recreate something that derives its form from the form of the OS
map?

--
Tim Jackson
lid
(Change '.invalid' to '.co.uk' to reply direct)
Absurd patents: visit http://www.patent.freeserve.co.uk

Nick wrote on 7 Mar 2004 02:00:34 -0800....
One question I would like to ask. The underlying code works by storing
features, path junctions and path/road junctions in a database as grid
references, then drawing the map by "joining the dots" so to speak.
Thus it is rougher than an OS map but still of value when looking up
what paths go where in a given area. I presume it is not against OS
copyright to use grid references? Could anyone advise? If it was I
could always redo it to use latitude/longitude.

This was discussed recently in u.r.w. See http://tinyurl.com/2djtj

Did your underlying data come from an OS map? Are you then using it
to recreate something that derives its form indirectly from the form
of the OS map?

--
Tim Jackson
lid
(Change '.invalid' to '.co.uk' to reply direct)
Absurd patents: visit http://www.patent.freeserve.co.uk

On 7 Mar 2004 02:00:34 -0800, Nick wrote:

references, then drawing the map by "joining the dots" so to speak.
Thus it is rougher than an OS map but still of value when looking up
what paths go where in a given area. I presume it is not against OS
copyright to use grid references? Could anyone advise? If it was I
could always redo it to use latitude/longitude.

I can't imagine how it could be copyright - OS grid is just a
transverse mercator projection. I don't think OS can claim a
copyright on transverse mercator, and you could just use teh same
origin and false origin as OS, quite by coincidence.

Conceivably they might claim something about teh landranger letters,
but if you're programming it's probably easier not to use teh letters
anyway, and just stick to six digit eastings & northings.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

Tim Jackson wrote in message t...
Nick wrote on 7 Mar 2004 02:00:34 -0800....
One question I would like to ask. The underlying code works by storing
features, path junctions and path/road junctions in a database as grid
references, then drawing the map by "joining the dots" so to speak.
Thus it is rougher than an OS map but still of value when looking up
what paths go where in a given area. I presume it is not against OS
copyright to use grid references? Could anyone advise? If it was I
could always redo it to use latitude/longitude.

This was discussed recently in u.r.w. See http://tinyurl.com/2djtj

Did your underlying data come from an OS map? Are you then using it
to recreate something that derives its form indirectly from the form
of the OS map?

Looked at the thread. From my understanding - it's OK to use grid
refs, but I have to gather them from my own GPS survey, but not from
an OS map -even *if* one's own version is much simpler than the OS map
(and thus scarcely a copy). Glad to hear I can still use grid refs
though, I'll just do some GPS surveys every time I go out walking
(probably 2 times a week come the "proper" spring), convert the lat
and long to grid refs and upload.

In the meantime if anyone would like to contribute to this project I'd
be glad of some GPS-derived data.

Thanks,
Nick

"Bryan Hall" wrote in message ...
Nick,
nice to see you developing beyond Mapmaker - I can remember when you rolled
that out and the idea was a clever one, at the right sort of level.

To answer your questions - I don't think OS "own" the Grid Ref concept,
it's widely used across the world, and I would have thought any copyright
that may have existed in the past would have been on patent, rather than
any other sort of commercial ownership. No doubt others on this NG will
correct me if I 'm wrong.

I think the main issues you'll have with this:
1. The OS spent a lot of money on initial population of the geographic data
base -have you thought how you plan to handle this?

Seems I can't derive data - even grid refs of path junctions etc -
from OS maps (seen Tim Jackson's message). However if I (and others
interested in the project) do GPS surveys it may be the database gets
built up relatively quickly.

2. There's already alternatives to this approach (Mulitmap/Autoroute etc)
that have a similar idea, but not necessarily the same level of walker
specific detail.

Those approaches are proprietary with licencing restrictions on use
(no reproduction etc). Also as you said, less walker/cyclist specific
detail. Freemap-derived maps and info would be free to use without
restrictions, in the spirit of the GPL for those into "free software"
development. The whole Mapmaker/Freemap concepts have their roots
around 3 or 4 years ago when I discovered that the OS didn't allow
even small sections of scanned-in maps to illustrate walks. Also
Freemap is aimed to be designed from the ground up for the
walker/cyclist (B+Bs, walks database, focus on scenery etc)

Nick

On 7 Mar 2004 02:00:34 -0800, (Nick) wrote:

I mentioned some time ago on uk.rec.walking that I was thinking of
developing a free online mapping service for walkers and off-road
cyclists, showing all the footpaths and bridleways in a given area -
on a more rough scale than OS maps but without the copyright issues.
Well, I've been doing a fair bit of work on this in the last couple of
months and a prototype is available at http://www.freemap.org.uk.
There is hardly any data at the moment (just a small amount - around 8
paths - in the vicinity of Fernhurst, West Sussex) but the engine is
quite advanced. Try going to the site (BTW, the user interface isn't
finished yet) and moving around with the arrows, scaling the map,
clicking on a feature (e.g. a village, pub or hill) and selecting "Get
Features" to list the features in an area. There is also a distance
calculator: try dragging with the right mouse button.

I can't see any mapping at all, just a pale yellow circle labelled
Fernhurst. I have tried clicking the pan and zoom controls.

I'm using Mozilla Firefox 0.8.

In message , Ian Smith
writes
On 7 Mar 2004 02:00:34 -0800, Nick wrote:

references, then drawing the map by "joining the dots" so to speak.
Thus it is rougher than an OS map but still of value when looking up
what paths go where in a given area. I presume it is not against OS
copyright to use grid references? Could anyone advise? If it was I
could always redo it to use latitude/longitude.

I can't imagine how it could be copyright - OS grid is just a
transverse mercator projection. I don't think OS can claim a
copyright on transverse mercator, and you could just use teh same
origin and false origin as OS, quite by coincidence.

Conceivably they might claim something about teh landranger letters,
but if you're programming it's probably easier not to use teh letters
anyway, and just stick to six digit eastings & northings.

They've been around so long they must be out of copyright even if they
were ever in.


--
Michael Farthing
cyclades
Software House