Damned Central Heating!

On Sunday, March 24, 2019 at 5:11:31 PM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 25 Mar 2019 07:04:40 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Mar 2019 15:43:34 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Sunday, March 24, 2019 at 8:23:15 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-23 16:20, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 16:06:42 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-03-23 15:56, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 09:34:21 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-03-20 11:09, sms wrote:

[...]


There's a big move now to all-electric since the electricity can be
generated without the use of fossil fuels.


Electric? With PG&E as the supplier? I won't touch that with a 10ft pole
for anything where electric power isn't absolutely needed.Yve cooling. No tax
incentives there either because politicians are generally not smart
enough to understand the benefits of that.

You bought a house in a gated community, and you own two cars, and
can't afford electricity?


Please pay closer attention to what was written and, even more so, what
was not written. Premature conclusions are also not wise.

a. We do not live in a gated community. Never did.

Strange that as it has been said more than once that you do live in a
gated community and you have never before refuted it?


I have. You should read more carefully.


b. Our cars are both well over 20 years old and we drive less than
1200mi/year with each of them.

I see, there are no additional costs for using a car if you don't
drive it? Like insurance, etc? Just don't drive them and they are
free?


Insurance is cheap and it is also necessary for cycling, which is
covered with the car insurance. The cost pales in comparison to other items.


c. Of course we can afford electricity. However, it is foolish to use a
resource with sky-high prices when there is another much more economical
resource.

How are prices "sky high", assuming that you pay the same rate as
everyone else? They don't have inflation in California? Their minimum
salary isn't "sky high" compared to other states? After all California
has the highest minimum rate of any state in the union. Why shouldn't
their electricity be high also?


See? That's what I mean with high. We pay the highest in the nation or
close to highest for almost everything while often receiving shoddy
service in return, thanks to politically endorsed union strangleholds.

--
Regards, Joerg

Move. You can take TK with you. Leave California. Get out of that hell-hole golf-course community! Maybe the Villages in Florida.

-- Jay Beattie.


Disregarding Hawaii, California is the 4th most expensive state to
live in, electricity wise, while Arkansas and Louisiana are the
cheapest. Florida ranks about in the middle (26th).

Further research shows that of the 50 states, including Hawaii and
D.C., that California is the most expensive place to live based on the
cost of food, housing, transportation, utilities, health care and
miscellaneous costs.
--

Cheers,

John B.

A bottle of oregano, a box of the cheapest breakfast cereal, three bagels, a small container of cream cheese, a bag of house brand ravioli and small container of blackberries - $37 and that was after saving $15 in sale items.

On Sunday, March 24, 2019 at 6:59:25 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 3/20/2019 3:44 PM, news18 wrote:

snip

Wood is a preferrable heating method to gas to electric. Since our wood
heater almost needs replacement, we did look at pellets, but limited
supply leading to cost gouging was a concern, plus modern heaters seem to
be tin plate these days.

In California, on "Spare the Air" days it is forbidden to use wood or
pellets for heating. "The rule prohibits burning any solid fuel,
including pellets and manufactured logs."

"unless it is your only form of heating."

On Monday, March 25, 2019 at 11:37:58 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, March 24, 2019 at 3:43:36 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, March 24, 2019 at 8:23:15 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-23 16:20, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 16:06:42 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-03-23 15:56, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 09:34:21 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-03-20 11:09, sms wrote:

[...]


There's a big move now to all-electric since the electricity can be
generated without the use of fossil fuels.


Electric? With PG&E as the supplier? I won't touch that with a 10ft pole
for anything where electric power isn't absolutely needed.Yve cooling. No tax
incentives there either because politicians are generally not smart
enough to understand the benefits of that.

You bought a house in a gated community, and you own two cars, and
can't afford electricity?


Please pay closer attention to what was written and, even more so, what
was not written. Premature conclusions are also not wise.

a. We do not live in a gated community. Never did.

Strange that as it has been said more than once that you do live in a
gated community and you have never before refuted it?


I have. You should read more carefully.


b. Our cars are both well over 20 years old and we drive less than
1200mi/year with each of them.

I see, there are no additional costs for using a car if you don't
drive it? Like insurance, etc? Just don't drive them and they are
free?


Insurance is cheap and it is also necessary for cycling, which is
covered with the car insurance. The cost pales in comparison to other items.


c. Of course we can afford electricity. However, it is foolish to use a
resource with sky-high prices when there is another much more economical
resource.

How are prices "sky high", assuming that you pay the same rate as
everyone else? They don't have inflation in California? Their minimum
salary isn't "sky high" compared to other states? After all California
has the highest minimum rate of any state in the union. Why shouldn't
their electricity be high also?


See? That's what I mean with high. We pay the highest in the nation or
close to highest for almost everything while often receiving shoddy
service in return, thanks to politically endorsed union strangleholds..

--
Regards, Joerg

Move. You can take TK with you. Leave California. Get out of that hell-hole golf-course community! Maybe the Villages in Florida.

-- Jay Beattie.

Sun City, AZ, is hardly anything other than homes and golf courses. Every drives around on the streets with electric golf carts. In two weeks of riding all over Phoenix area I never saw one single homeless person. And they have more illegals per citizen than California. I drove up to the Grand Canyon and all of the cities and towns in between - no homeless.

It was sort of the way Portland used to be before they got a Democrat political structure.

Really? I don't remember seeing you up here when Syrian Republican Vic Atiyeh was governor. He called himself an Episcopalian . . . but we knew the truth. We kept asking for his birth certificate. Because of him, all the homeless people came up here from Oakland. Before him, it was all sunshine and golf-carts, no crime and, of course, none of that rock-and-roll music or dancing on Sundays.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 3/25/2019 1:37 PM, wrote:
On Sunday, March 24, 2019 at 3:43:36 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, March 24, 2019 at 8:23:15 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-23 16:20, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 16:06:42 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-03-23 15:56, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 09:34:21 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-03-20 11:09, sms wrote:

[...]


There's a big move now to all-electric since the electricity can be
generated without the use of fossil fuels.


Electric? With PG&E as the supplier? I won't touch that with a 10ft pole
for anything where electric power isn't absolutely needed.Yve cooling. No tax
incentives there either because politicians are generally not smart
enough to understand the benefits of that.

You bought a house in a gated community, and you own two cars, and
can't afford electricity?


Please pay closer attention to what was written and, even more so, what
was not written. Premature conclusions are also not wise.

a. We do not live in a gated community. Never did.

Strange that as it has been said more than once that you do live in a
gated community and you have never before refuted it?


I have. You should read more carefully.


b. Our cars are both well over 20 years old and we drive less than
1200mi/year with each of them.

I see, there are no additional costs for using a car if you don't
drive it? Like insurance, etc? Just don't drive them and they are
free?


Insurance is cheap and it is also necessary for cycling, which is
covered with the car insurance. The cost pales in comparison to other items.


c. Of course we can afford electricity. However, it is foolish to use a
resource with sky-high prices when there is another much more economical
resource.

How are prices "sky high", assuming that you pay the same rate as
everyone else? They don't have inflation in California? Their minimum
salary isn't "sky high" compared to other states? After all California
has the highest minimum rate of any state in the union. Why shouldn't
their electricity be high also?


See? That's what I mean with high. We pay the highest in the nation or
close to highest for almost everything while often receiving shoddy
service in return, thanks to politically endorsed union strangleholds.

--
Regards, Joerg

Move. You can take TK with you. Leave California. Get out of that hell-hole golf-course community! Maybe the Villages in Florida.

-- Jay Beattie.

Sun City, AZ, is hardly anything other than homes and golf courses. Every drives around on the streets with electric golf carts. In two weeks of riding all over Phoenix area I never saw one single homeless person. And they have more illegals per citizen than California. I drove up to the Grand Canyon and all of the cities and towns in between - no homeless.

It was sort of the way Portland used to be before they got a Democrat political structure.


The voters have spoken and deserve every bit of it.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Mon, 25 Mar 2019 16:35:36 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 3/25/2019 1:37 PM, wrote:
On Sunday, March 24, 2019 at 3:43:36 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, March 24, 2019 at 8:23:15 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-23 16:20, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 16:06:42 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-03-23 15:56, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 09:34:21 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-03-20 11:09, sms wrote:

[...]


There's a big move now to all-electric since the electricity can be
generated without the use of fossil fuels.


Electric? With PG&E as the supplier? I won't touch that with a 10ft pole
for anything where electric power isn't absolutely needed.Yve cooling. No tax
incentives there either because politicians are generally not smart
enough to understand the benefits of that.

You bought a house in a gated community, and you own two cars, and
can't afford electricity?


Please pay closer attention to what was written and, even more so, what
was not written. Premature conclusions are also not wise.

a. We do not live in a gated community. Never did.

Strange that as it has been said more than once that you do live in a
gated community and you have never before refuted it?


I have. You should read more carefully.


b. Our cars are both well over 20 years old and we drive less than
1200mi/year with each of them.

I see, there are no additional costs for using a car if you don't
drive it? Like insurance, etc? Just don't drive them and they are
free?


Insurance is cheap and it is also necessary for cycling, which is
covered with the car insurance. The cost pales in comparison to other items.


c. Of course we can afford electricity. However, it is foolish to use a
resource with sky-high prices when there is another much more economical
resource.

How are prices "sky high", assuming that you pay the same rate as
everyone else? They don't have inflation in California? Their minimum
salary isn't "sky high" compared to other states? After all California
has the highest minimum rate of any state in the union. Why shouldn't
their electricity be high also?


See? That's what I mean with high. We pay the highest in the nation or
close to highest for almost everything while often receiving shoddy
service in return, thanks to politically endorsed union strangleholds.

--
Regards, Joerg

Move. You can take TK with you. Leave California. Get out of that hell-hole golf-course community! Maybe the Villages in Florida.

-- Jay Beattie.

Sun City, AZ, is hardly anything other than homes and golf courses. Every drives around on the streets with electric golf carts. In two weeks of riding all over Phoenix area I never saw one single homeless person. And they have more illegals per citizen than California. I drove up to the Grand Canyon and all of the cities and towns in between - no homeless.

It was sort of the way Portland used to be before they got a Democrat political structure.


The voters have spoken and deserve every bit of it.

Winston Churchill once said that "The best argument against democracy
is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

And someone described the democratic system as being one where the
voters get the leadership that they deserved :-)

--

Cheers,

John B.

On 3/25/2019 2:33 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, March 23, 2019 at 4:09:26 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-20 09:42, wrote:
On Tuesday, March 19, 2019 at 1:28:01 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-19 11:17, wrote:
A couple of months ago when it was coldest my central heating
stopped igniting. My impression from the sounds it was making was
that the thermocouple was bad or the pilot light that would be
ignited was dirty or some such so that the flame wasn't close
enough to the thermocouple of inform it that there was a real
flame there and turn the full flame on.

The repairman came out and said that the pilot and thermocouple
was OK and changed out the main gas valve. The heater appeared to
work for six weeks and then as the weather got cold again started
not lighting again.

The company sent another repairman out and he said that it was
the main control board and replaced that.

I am now $1,600 into "repairs" and sure enough - the heater
isn't lighting still.

It would appear to me at this time that there is nothing more to
replace but the pilot tube and the thermocouple. So I wonder how
to convince the repairman that there is something wrong with one
of those?


We had that happen a long time ago and the cause was the
electronic controller board. The central propane furnace would go
VROOOOP .. PHUTAH-PHUT ... RUMBLE ... VROOOOOOOOOP ... and never
stayed on anymore.

When the technician came out he exclaimed "Oh look, an old Fenwal
controller board!", saying he was amazed that it lasted this long.
He switched it out against one from another manufacturer and all
was well.

I asked him to leave the old board and when probing it I found that
the triac that controls the main burner valve had gone partially
bad so it wouldn't be able to send a full current through the valve
solenoid anymore. Could have kicked myself because instead of
paying a few hundred Dollars I could have gotten one of those triac
for a couple of Dollars and replaced it. If these triac are on a
separate driver board then check that.

There is also a suction sensor, for example a flap in the intake
stream that operates a signaling switch. If that got crudded up it
might at times falsely signal a failing air draft and that would
cut the main valve.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/




when the technician came out again the board was showing errors of
"too many tries". He pulled the connector off and spread the male
connector so that it would make better connection to the main gas
valve and it appears to work perfectly now. Though when the main gas
valve was replaced 3 months ago it all worked fine until recently.


The first technician could have diagnosed that easily by measuring how
many volts are actually arriving at the solenoid. This is the first
order of business for me when, for example, my wife says that a certain
zone in the yard doesn't get watered reliably.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

He got the correct readings because the problem wasn't the board but the connection between the board and the gas solenoid not making proper contact. Since both the board and the valve were new there really wasn't any question about their working. It took him a little while to isolate the connection. These connectors are the male and female pin types. So it is virtually impossible to measure them when connected.


Off topic, but vaguely related to diagnosing electrical problems:

We just visited friends who recently moved into a brand new apartment in
a brand new building. They have a mysterious electrical problem: When
the oven door is opened, the lights in a different room go out. The
arc-fault breaker trips. The maintenance guys don't know why, but
apparently lots of tenants have the same problem.

We solved it temporarily by removing the oven's light bulb.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/25/2019 8:43 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 25 Mar 2019 16:35:36 -0500, AMuzi wrote:


The voters have spoken and deserve every bit of it.

Winston Churchill once said that "The best argument against democracy
is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

And someone described the democratic system as being one where the
voters get the leadership that they deserved :-)

It may be that the main advantage of democracy is a lower chance of
violent revolt. Those who are terminally dissatisfied with the
politicians in power usually realize they are in the minority.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/20/2019 12:04 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, March 20, 2019 at 11:09:26 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 3/19/2019 4:04 PM, Joerg wrote:

snip

We rarely use it anymore due to the price-gouging in the propane
industry. We switched to cord wood and pellets.

No natural gas in your area? Odd for California housing developments.

There's a big move now to all-electric since the electricity can be
generated without the use of fossil fuels.

I don't know where you get that idea. Those new windmills are more than 500 meters high and they will not start turning in anything short of hurricane force winds so the "generator" is driven like a motor to keep them rotating. Any that you see not turning are turned off and may be broken. The results of all of this is those windmills have a net power DRAIN in most areas because while they generate a good deal of power when the wind is above 20 mph that is rare.

Solar farms are almost as bad. They virtually kill the environment beneath them and they have efficiency of only 22% or so when new. They age 4 times faster than is claimed and if you do not keep them clean they can fail faster than that. At 22% efficiency at high noon when the sun is directly overhead that means that they can only generate 220 watts per square meter.

A friend was planning on putting solar cells on his home in Phoenix and dragged me off to a solar show. The salesmen were taunting 20 year lifespan. I talked to the engineers and they told me soto vox that they were 5 years to 50% output if the surfaces were cleaned all the time. And this is only under perfect conditions. They are only good for output on 2 hours either side of local true noon. Any clouds greatly reduce their output.

So virtually all of that crap about "green energy" is just that. They cause 100 times more environmental damage than they supposedly prevent. Birds cannot judge a windmill speed because the ends of the blades are traveling at 200 mph. The sound from the rotating blades even being driven via motor power confuse bats and when under full wind drive make super-sonic sounds so loud that they permanently deafen the insect eating bats that are environmentally important.

All of this is well known and there are plenty of papers written on these subjects. Why does the media avoid these at all costs and continue to promote the fraud of climate change when the climate has been more or less stable since the end of the Little Ice Age?


LOL! You actually BELIEVE this crap?

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/25/2019 2:33 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, March 23, 2019 at 4:09:26 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-20 09:42, wrote:
On Tuesday, March 19, 2019 at 1:28:01 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-19 11:17, wrote:
A couple of months ago when it was coldest my central heating
stopped igniting. My impression from the sounds it was making was
that the thermocouple was bad or the pilot light that would be
ignited was dirty or some such so that the flame wasn't close
enough to the thermocouple of inform it that there was a real
flame there and turn the full flame on.

The repairman came out and said that the pilot and thermocouple
was OK and changed out the main gas valve. The heater appeared to
work for six weeks and then as the weather got cold again started
not lighting again.

The company sent another repairman out and he said that it was
the main control board and replaced that.

I am now $1,600 into "repairs" and sure enough - the heater
isn't lighting still.

It would appear to me at this time that there is nothing more to
replace but the pilot tube and the thermocouple. So I wonder how
to convince the repairman that there is something wrong with one
of those?


We had that happen a long time ago and the cause was the
electronic controller board. The central propane furnace would go
VROOOOP .. PHUTAH-PHUT ... RUMBLE ... VROOOOOOOOOP ... and never
stayed on anymore.

When the technician came out he exclaimed "Oh look, an old Fenwal
controller board!", saying he was amazed that it lasted this long.
He switched it out against one from another manufacturer and all
was well.

I asked him to leave the old board and when probing it I found that
the triac that controls the main burner valve had gone partially
bad so it wouldn't be able to send a full current through the valve
solenoid anymore. Could have kicked myself because instead of
paying a few hundred Dollars I could have gotten one of those triac
for a couple of Dollars and replaced it. If these triac are on a
separate driver board then check that.

There is also a suction sensor, for example a flap in the intake
stream that operates a signaling switch. If that got crudded up it
might at times falsely signal a failing air draft and that would
cut the main valve.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/




when the technician came out again the board was showing errors of
"too many tries". He pulled the connector off and spread the male
connector so that it would make better connection to the main gas
valve and it appears to work perfectly now. Though when the main gas
valve was replaced 3 months ago it all worked fine until recently.


The first technician could have diagnosed that easily by measuring how
many volts are actually arriving at the solenoid. This is the first
order of business for me when, for example, my wife says that a certain
zone in the yard doesn't get watered reliably.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

He got the correct readings because the problem wasn't the board but the
connection between the board and the gas solenoid not making proper
contact. Since both the board and the valve were new there really wasn't
any question about their working. It took him a little while to isolate
the connection. These connectors are the male and female pin types. So
it is virtually impossible to measure them when connected.


Off topic, but vaguely related to diagnosing electrical problems:

We just visited friends who recently moved into a brand new apartment in
a brand new building. They have a mysterious electrical problem: When
the oven door is opened, the lights in a different room go out. The
arc-fault breaker trips. The maintenance guys don't know why, but
apparently lots of tenants have the same problem.

We solved it temporarily by removing the oven's light bulb.


Try this hypothesis on for size. The oven door switch doesn't have
mechanical hysteresis (ie: if doesn't snap over from open to closed as the
door opens). Since people don't normally fling open their oven doors, the
switch closes slowly, causing intermittent current which the arc-fault
breaker sees as an arcing fault, and trips for. Since it's a new building,
it's quite likely that most of the suites have the same oven (and all of
them have the same type of breakers and wiring), and therefore many people
have the same problem. If it's a gas oven, then it could be very likely
that the oven and the lights in the next room are on the same circuit.

On Fri, 22 Mar 2019 17:39:07 -0700, Mike A Schwab wrote:

On Wednesday, March 20, 2019 at 5:44:12 PM UTC-5, news18 wrote:
On Wed, 20 Mar 2019 11:09:21 -0700, sms wrote:

On 3/19/2019 4:04 PM, Joerg wrote:

snip

We rarely use it anymore due to the price-gouging in the propane
industry. We switched to cord wood and pellets.

No natural gas in your area? Odd for California housing developments.

There's a big move now to all-electric since the electricity can be
generated without the use of fossil fuels.

LPG prices tend to follow the natural gas prices, especially here where
they exsprt just about everything for sale overseas. Since the
politicians allowed gas exploration and export with effective nil
royalties, Australia has had to import Natural gas from overseas to
meet demand.

We've run wood for decades. It came from the tree loppers, which I
guess is what you call cord wood, but the work involved is now too much
and we've gone back to LPG.

Wood is a preferrable heating method to gas to electric. Since our wood
heater almost needs replacement, we did look at pellets, but limited
supply leading to cost gouging was a concern, plus modern heaters seem
to be tin plate these days.

I know someone who used corn in a pellet stove just fine. Wheat should
work too.
I assume you mean corn cobs as i'd be a bit dubious of using some strains
of corn n the stove. OTOH, on top they can produce a delicious produts.

The major problem here is price to obtain.

We have a contnual rain d dead wood, but the real warmth is from the
physical effort of collecting, breaking it down and feeding the fire. It
is the "cord wood" that is too hard.