#21
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Rear Derailleur
On 5/11/2021 2:36 PM, Mark J. wrote:
On 5/11/2021 11:39 AM, jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 11:03:59 AM UTC-7, wrote: On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 10:35:57 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 10:02:13 AM UTC-7, wrote: On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 9:39:56 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 5/11/2021 11:44 AM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 6:56:30 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote: On 5/11/2021 8:41 AM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 7:09:57 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 5/10/2021 9:42 PM, AMuzi wrote: On 5/10/2021 8:22 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 4:51:13 PM UTC-7, wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 4:19:53 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 9:59:14 AM UTC-7, wrote: I did a climbing ride sort of - it was less that 1000 feet and the steepest part was only about 9%. For some reason I was dog tired and it really hurt. 3/4ths of the way in to the ride and luckily downhill to most extent, the rear derailleur idler pully exploded. I assumed that it was the roller bearing idler pulley but working on it what happened was the the sheet metal rotational limit piece on the derailleur appears to have broken off which caused the pulley to be pulled into the cassette which broke it and this entire thing locked up the whole drive train which bent the drop out. So I have to get a replacement for that. After removing the rear derailleur it will not thread back in. Finding a replacement ought to be a whole lot of fun. It sounds like you pulled the guide pulley into the cassette and the other damage followed and not vice versa. That can happen under certain unfortunate circumstances. The rear derailleur cannot be "pulled into the cassette" though that is what I thought too. Sure it can, and it happens with fair regularity on MTBs. It can be a b-screw screw-up, limit screw screw-up, worn chain, cassette, chainrings -- a stick, rock. It can even be caused by a shift and a bump. I have never heard of the b-screw tab breaking, but maybe that happens on Campy derailleurs -- and if so, that is a major design FU, particularly considering the consequences. Until I analyzed it. The stop on the rear derailleur with is a small sheet steel washer-like mechanism that keeps the derailleur from rotating past the stop. Without that stop the idler pulley was pulled into the cassette and the entire mechanism was locked up solid. FYI, your typical pully choices are "upper or lower" or "guide pulley" (upper) or "tension pulley." (lower). I don't know what an idler pulley is on a derailleur. -- Jay Beattie. And it's simple to avoid. Finish any gear adjustment with this test: http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/gearchek.jpg image from Canada, miketechinfo.com I think Tom needs to hire a better mechanic. It seems like about a quarter of his posts are about bike wrenching screw-ups. And yet as a supposed mechanical engineer you don't even know how to hold an Allen wrench. I find it humorous that people who haven't seen a thing in their lives are so ready to tell others how to do things. Jay is telling us that since things happen on an MTB with a 42 tooth cassette they happen all the time on a Campy Record bike with a 28 tooth. If it wasn't so comical you guys would be nothing more than pitiful. Is there a 'wrong' way to hold an allen wrench? In two tentacles rather than three? What? Andrew, without actually seeing the problem or the initial setup people do not have the right to criticize other people's problems. I'm not criticizing that specific problem. I'm criticizing your mechanical aptitude in general. You've written an entire book here about your mechanical mistakes, with an appendix covering your electronic mistakes and your mis-ordered parts. You have retired the trophy for bike wrenching incompetence. As to holding Allen wrenches: I've built and rebuilt multiple bikes from the frame up. I've disassembled and rebuilt multiple engines of cars, plus motorcycles, lawn mowers and more. I'm a reasonably competent machinist and a halfway competent welder. I've taught others how to do those things. I'm not claiming to be perfect. We all make mistakes. But someone who makes as many mistakes as you should not be insulting others' mechanical aptitude. (And yes, we know, it's all Biden's fault. Please spare us the off-topic political deflection nonsense.) Tell me Frank, what were the mistakes I've written a book about. You are a person obviously on phycological medication and pretty much everyone is aware of this. What are you doing on a tech site when you've never yourself added anything to it beyond your cool lights that are never used because you sight is too bad to go out after dark? Without getting into whether there was some installation error, what you identify as "causes" are classic "effects" -- blown-up pulley, broken B-tension screw tab, etc., etc. I think you have cause and effect backward on this one. It wasn't a B tension screw. Why are you talking about things you don't understand? The part that broke is known as a RD-RE116 and is s completely different part than the B-tension screw. It didn't bend and it did loose - it failed from metal fatigue. This didn't occur in the 8 speed units because the ratios between gears was high enough that you didn't have to shift from high gear to low very often. That's not a sheet metal piece like you described (in your usual vague and sketchy way), and the typical failure mode for similar b-tension plates is, again, the derailleur getting pulled into the cassettes. SRAM uses a somewhat similar plate with a screw, and those have been known to break if the derailleur body is under-tightened to the hanger or if it becomes loose during riding. I doubt these plates see much in the way of fatigue if properly installed because they are squeezed between the derailleur body and the dropout, but I'll leave the fatigue analysis to Frank. -- Jay Beattie. I'm confused about this "derailleur pulled into the cassette" phenomenon. What is it? I've witnessed first hand the derailleur- shifted-into-spokes maneuver (from 3 ft behind on a steep slow hill) - impressive to watch. Is it similar? Mark J. Pretty much except by saying 'cassette' rather than 'spokes' one's lack of mechanical diligence is excused. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
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#22
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Rear Derailleur
On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 2:09:49 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/11/2021 2:36 PM, Mark J. wrote: On 5/11/2021 11:39 AM, jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 11:03:59 AM UTC-7, wrote: On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 10:35:57 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 10:02:13 AM UTC-7, wrote: On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 9:39:56 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 5/11/2021 11:44 AM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 6:56:30 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote: On 5/11/2021 8:41 AM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 7:09:57 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 5/10/2021 9:42 PM, AMuzi wrote: On 5/10/2021 8:22 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 4:51:13 PM UTC-7, wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 4:19:53 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 9:59:14 AM UTC-7, wrote: I did a climbing ride sort of - it was less that 1000 feet and the steepest part was only about 9%. For some reason I was dog tired and it really hurt. 3/4ths of the way in to the ride and luckily downhill to most extent, the rear derailleur idler pully exploded. I assumed that it was the roller bearing idler pulley but working on it what happened was the the sheet metal rotational limit piece on the derailleur appears to have broken off which caused the pulley to be pulled into the cassette which broke it and this entire thing locked up the whole drive train which bent the drop out. So I have to get a replacement for that. After removing the rear derailleur it will not thread back in. Finding a replacement ought to be a whole lot of fun. It sounds like you pulled the guide pulley into the cassette and the other damage followed and not vice versa. That can happen under certain unfortunate circumstances. The rear derailleur cannot be "pulled into the cassette" though that is what I thought too. Sure it can, and it happens with fair regularity on MTBs. It can be a b-screw screw-up, limit screw screw-up, worn chain, cassette, chainrings -- a stick, rock. It can even be caused by a shift and a bump. I have never heard of the b-screw tab breaking, but maybe that happens on Campy derailleurs -- and if so, that is a major design FU, particularly considering the consequences. Until I analyzed it. The stop on the rear derailleur with is a small sheet steel washer-like mechanism that keeps the derailleur from rotating past the stop. Without that stop the idler pulley was pulled into the cassette and the entire mechanism was locked up solid. FYI, your typical pully choices are "upper or lower" or "guide pulley" (upper) or "tension pulley." (lower). I don't know what an idler pulley is on a derailleur. -- Jay Beattie. And it's simple to avoid. Finish any gear adjustment with this test: http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/gearchek.jpg image from Canada, miketechinfo.com I think Tom needs to hire a better mechanic. It seems like about a quarter of his posts are about bike wrenching screw-ups. And yet as a supposed mechanical engineer you don't even know how to hold an Allen wrench. I find it humorous that people who haven't seen a thing in their lives are so ready to tell others how to do things. Jay is telling us that since things happen on an MTB with a 42 tooth cassette they happen all the time on a Campy Record bike with a 28 tooth. If it wasn't so comical you guys would be nothing more than pitiful. Is there a 'wrong' way to hold an allen wrench? In two tentacles rather than three? What? Andrew, without actually seeing the problem or the initial setup people do not have the right to criticize other people's problems. I'm not criticizing that specific problem. I'm criticizing your mechanical aptitude in general. You've written an entire book here about your mechanical mistakes, with an appendix covering your electronic mistakes and your mis-ordered parts. You have retired the trophy for bike wrenching incompetence. As to holding Allen wrenches: I've built and rebuilt multiple bikes from the frame up. I've disassembled and rebuilt multiple engines of cars, plus motorcycles, lawn mowers and more. I'm a reasonably competent machinist and a halfway competent welder. I've taught others how to do those things. I'm not claiming to be perfect. We all make mistakes. But someone who makes as many mistakes as you should not be insulting others' mechanical aptitude. (And yes, we know, it's all Biden's fault. Please spare us the off-topic political deflection nonsense.) Tell me Frank, what were the mistakes I've written a book about. You are a person obviously on phycological medication and pretty much everyone is aware of this. What are you doing on a tech site when you've never yourself added anything to it beyond your cool lights that are never used because you sight is too bad to go out after dark? Without getting into whether there was some installation error, what you identify as "causes" are classic "effects" -- blown-up pulley, broken B-tension screw tab, etc., etc. I think you have cause and effect backward on this one. It wasn't a B tension screw. Why are you talking about things you don't understand? The part that broke is known as a RD-RE116 and is s completely different part than the B-tension screw. It didn't bend and it did loose - it failed from metal fatigue. This didn't occur in the 8 speed units because the ratios between gears was high enough that you didn't have to shift from high gear to low very often. That's not a sheet metal piece like you described (in your usual vague and sketchy way), and the typical failure mode for similar b-tension plates is, again, the derailleur getting pulled into the cassettes. SRAM uses a somewhat similar plate with a screw, and those have been known to break if the derailleur body is under-tightened to the hanger or if it becomes loose during riding. I doubt these plates see much in the way of fatigue if properly installed because they are squeezed between the derailleur body and the dropout, but I'll leave the fatigue analysis to Frank. -- Jay Beattie. I'm confused about this "derailleur pulled into the cassette" phenomenon. What is it? I've witnessed first hand the derailleur- shifted-into-spokes maneuver (from 3 ft behind on a steep slow hill) - impressive to watch. Is it similar? Mark J. Pretty much except by saying 'cassette' rather than 'spokes' one's lack of mechanical diligence is excused. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 IME, it is usually a limit screw, bent DR hanger over shift kind of issue where the chain gets stuck in the spokes or stay/dropout, but there are times when the chain can get crossed-up in the cassette -- like a stick or object gets in there, or a link plate bends or the chain is mis-installed across over the top of that guide on the upper pully (maybe), or the derailleur is just loose. There are probably worn chain/cassette scenarios that could cause the derailleur to get sucked into the cassette. You can probably hit a giant bump that slaps the upper pulley into a cog. I was JRA in the middle of the cluster and ripped off a RD probably because I picked up a little stick. -- Jay Beattie. |
#23
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Rear Derailleur
On Tue, 11 May 2021 12:48:06 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/11/2021 11:39 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 5/11/2021 11:44 AM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 6:56:30 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote: On 5/11/2021 8:41 AM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 7:09:57 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 5/10/2021 9:42 PM, AMuzi wrote: On 5/10/2021 8:22 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 4:51:13 PM UTC-7, wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 4:19:53 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 9:59:14 AM UTC-7, wrote: I did a climbing ride sort of - it was less that 1000 feet and the steepest part was only about 9%. For some reason I was dog tired and it really hurt. 3/4ths of the way in to the ride and luckily downhill to most extent, the rear derailleur idler pully exploded. I assumed that it was the roller bearing idler pulley but working on it what happened was the the sheet metal rotational limit piece on the derailleur appears to have broken off which caused the pulley to be pulled into the cassette which broke it and this entire thing locked up the whole drive train which bent the drop out. So I have to get a replacement for that. After removing the rear derailleur it will not thread back in. Finding a replacement ought to be a whole lot of fun. It sounds like you pulled the guide pulley into the cassette and the other damage followed and not vice versa. That can happen under certain unfortunate circumstances. The rear derailleur cannot be "pulled into the cassette" though that is what I thought too. Sure it can, and it happens with fair regularity on MTBs. It can be a b-screw screw-up, limit screw screw-up, worn chain, cassette, chainrings -- a stick, rock. It can even be caused by a shift and a bump. I have never heard of the b-screw tab breaking, but maybe that happens on Campy derailleurs -- and if so, that is a major design FU, particularly considering the consequences. Until I analyzed it. The stop on the rear derailleur with is a small sheet steel washer-like mechanism that keeps the derailleur from rotating past the stop. Without that stop the idler pulley was pulled into the cassette and the entire mechanism was locked up solid. FYI, your typical pully choices are "upper or lower" or "guide pulley" (upper) or "tension pulley." (lower). I don't know what an idler pulley is on a derailleur. -- Jay Beattie. And it's simple to avoid. Finish any gear adjustment with this test: http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/gearchek.jpg image from Canada, miketechinfo.com I think Tom needs to hire a better mechanic. It seems like about a quarter of his posts are about bike wrenching screw-ups. And yet as a supposed mechanical engineer you don't even know how to hold an Allen wrench. I find it humorous that people who haven't seen a thing in their lives are so ready to tell others how to do things. Jay is telling us that since things happen on an MTB with a 42 tooth cassette they happen all the time on a Campy Record bike with a 28 tooth. If it wasn't so comical you guys would be nothing more than pitiful. Is there a 'wrong' way to hold an allen wrench? In two tentacles rather than three? What? Andrew, without actually seeing the problem or the initial setup people do not have the right to criticize other people's problems. I'm not criticizing that specific problem. I'm criticizing your mechanical aptitude in general. You've written an entire book here about your mechanical mistakes, with an appendix covering your electronic mistakes and your mis-ordered parts. You have retired the trophy for bike wrenching incompetence. As to holding Allen wrenches: I've built and rebuilt multiple bikes from the frame up. I've disassembled and rebuilt multiple engines of cars, plus motorcycles, lawn mowers and more. I'm a reasonably competent machinist and a halfway competent welder. I've taught others how to do those things. I'm not claiming to be perfect. We all make mistakes. But someone who makes as many mistakes as you should not be insulting others' mechanical aptitude. (And yes, we know, it's all Biden's fault. Please spare us the off-topic political deflection nonsense.) Obviously dancing around the question of how to correctly hold an allen key. We're waiting! The first problem will be to determine whether it is an "allen key" or an "allen wrench" Amazon sells "allen wrenches" https://www.amazon.com/allen-wrench/s?k=allen+wrench while McMaster-Carr sell "allen keys" https://www.mcmaster.com/allen-keys/ One certainly would not want to select an improper "allen xyz" before demonstrating the proper way to hold it. -- Cheers, John B. |
#24
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Rear Derailleur
On Tue, 11 May 2021 12:39:53 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 5/11/2021 11:44 AM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 6:56:30 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote: On 5/11/2021 8:41 AM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 7:09:57 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 5/10/2021 9:42 PM, AMuzi wrote: On 5/10/2021 8:22 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 4:51:13 PM UTC-7, wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 4:19:53 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 9:59:14 AM UTC-7, wrote: I did a climbing ride sort of - it was less that 1000 feet and the steepest part was only about 9%. For some reason I was dog tired and it really hurt. 3/4ths of the way in to the ride and luckily downhill to most extent, the rear derailleur idler pully exploded. I assumed that it was the roller bearing idler pulley but working on it what happened was the the sheet metal rotational limit piece on the derailleur appears to have broken off which caused the pulley to be pulled into the cassette which broke it and this entire thing locked up the whole drive train which bent the drop out. So I have to get a replacement for that. After removing the rear derailleur it will not thread back in. Finding a replacement ought to be a whole lot of fun. It sounds like you pulled the guide pulley into the cassette and the other damage followed and not vice versa. That can happen under certain unfortunate circumstances. The rear derailleur cannot be "pulled into the cassette" though that is what I thought too. Sure it can, and it happens with fair regularity on MTBs. It can be a b-screw screw-up, limit screw screw-up, worn chain, cassette, chainrings -- a stick, rock. It can even be caused by a shift and a bump. I have never heard of the b-screw tab breaking, but maybe that happens on Campy derailleurs -- and if so, that is a major design FU, particularly considering the consequences. Until I analyzed it. The stop on the rear derailleur with is a small sheet steel washer-like mechanism that keeps the derailleur from rotating past the stop. Without that stop the idler pulley was pulled into the cassette and the entire mechanism was locked up solid. FYI, your typical pully choices are "upper or lower" or "guide pulley" (upper) or "tension pulley." (lower). I don't know what an idler pulley is on a derailleur. -- Jay Beattie. And it's simple to avoid. Finish any gear adjustment with this test: http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/gearchek.jpg image from Canada, miketechinfo.com I think Tom needs to hire a better mechanic. It seems like about a quarter of his posts are about bike wrenching screw-ups. And yet as a supposed mechanical engineer you don't even know how to hold an Allen wrench. I find it humorous that people who haven't seen a thing in their lives are so ready to tell others how to do things. Jay is telling us that since things happen on an MTB with a 42 tooth cassette they happen all the time on a Campy Record bike with a 28 tooth. If it wasn't so comical you guys would be nothing more than pitiful. Is there a 'wrong' way to hold an allen wrench? In two tentacles rather than three? What? Andrew, without actually seeing the problem or the initial setup people do not have the right to criticize other people's problems. I'm not criticizing that specific problem. I'm criticizing your mechanical aptitude in general. You've written an entire book here about your mechanical mistakes, with an appendix covering your electronic mistakes and your mis-ordered parts. You have retired the trophy for bike wrenching incompetence. As to holding Allen wrenches: I've built and rebuilt multiple bikes from the frame up. I've disassembled and rebuilt multiple engines of cars, plus motorcycles, lawn mowers and more. I'm a reasonably competent machinist and a halfway competent welder. I've taught others how to do those things. I'm not claiming to be perfect. We all make mistakes. But someone who makes as many mistakes as you should not be insulting others' mechanical aptitude. (And yes, we know, it's all Biden's fault. Please spare us the off-topic political deflection nonsense.) And just think Frank, he's designed, built, made all those marvelously complex medical machines. -- Cheers, John B. |
#25
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Rear Derailleur
On 5/11/2021 5:15 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 11 May 2021 12:48:06 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 5/11/2021 11:39 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 5/11/2021 11:44 AM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 6:56:30 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote: On 5/11/2021 8:41 AM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 7:09:57 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 5/10/2021 9:42 PM, AMuzi wrote: On 5/10/2021 8:22 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 4:51:13 PM UTC-7, wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 4:19:53 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 9:59:14 AM UTC-7, wrote: I did a climbing ride sort of - it was less that 1000 feet and the steepest part was only about 9%. For some reason I was dog tired and it really hurt. 3/4ths of the way in to the ride and luckily downhill to most extent, the rear derailleur idler pully exploded. I assumed that it was the roller bearing idler pulley but working on it what happened was the the sheet metal rotational limit piece on the derailleur appears to have broken off which caused the pulley to be pulled into the cassette which broke it and this entire thing locked up the whole drive train which bent the drop out. So I have to get a replacement for that. After removing the rear derailleur it will not thread back in. Finding a replacement ought to be a whole lot of fun. It sounds like you pulled the guide pulley into the cassette and the other damage followed and not vice versa. That can happen under certain unfortunate circumstances. The rear derailleur cannot be "pulled into the cassette" though that is what I thought too. Sure it can, and it happens with fair regularity on MTBs. It can be a b-screw screw-up, limit screw screw-up, worn chain, cassette, chainrings -- a stick, rock. It can even be caused by a shift and a bump. I have never heard of the b-screw tab breaking, but maybe that happens on Campy derailleurs -- and if so, that is a major design FU, particularly considering the consequences. Until I analyzed it. The stop on the rear derailleur with is a small sheet steel washer-like mechanism that keeps the derailleur from rotating past the stop. Without that stop the idler pulley was pulled into the cassette and the entire mechanism was locked up solid. FYI, your typical pully choices are "upper or lower" or "guide pulley" (upper) or "tension pulley." (lower). I don't know what an idler pulley is on a derailleur. -- Jay Beattie. And it's simple to avoid. Finish any gear adjustment with this test: http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/gearchek.jpg image from Canada, miketechinfo.com I think Tom needs to hire a better mechanic. It seems like about a quarter of his posts are about bike wrenching screw-ups. And yet as a supposed mechanical engineer you don't even know how to hold an Allen wrench. I find it humorous that people who haven't seen a thing in their lives are so ready to tell others how to do things. Jay is telling us that since things happen on an MTB with a 42 tooth cassette they happen all the time on a Campy Record bike with a 28 tooth. If it wasn't so comical you guys would be nothing more than pitiful. Is there a 'wrong' way to hold an allen wrench? In two tentacles rather than three? What? Andrew, without actually seeing the problem or the initial setup people do not have the right to criticize other people's problems. I'm not criticizing that specific problem. I'm criticizing your mechanical aptitude in general. You've written an entire book here about your mechanical mistakes, with an appendix covering your electronic mistakes and your mis-ordered parts. You have retired the trophy for bike wrenching incompetence. As to holding Allen wrenches: I've built and rebuilt multiple bikes from the frame up. I've disassembled and rebuilt multiple engines of cars, plus motorcycles, lawn mowers and more. I'm a reasonably competent machinist and a halfway competent welder. I've taught others how to do those things. I'm not claiming to be perfect. We all make mistakes. But someone who makes as many mistakes as you should not be insulting others' mechanical aptitude. (And yes, we know, it's all Biden's fault. Please spare us the off-topic political deflection nonsense.) Obviously dancing around the question of how to correctly hold an allen key. We're waiting! The first problem will be to determine whether it is an "allen key" or an "allen wrench" Amazon sells "allen wrenches" https://www.amazon.com/allen-wrench/s?k=allen+wrench while McMaster-Carr sell "allen keys" https://www.mcmaster.com/allen-keys/ One certainly would not want to select an improper "allen xyz" before demonstrating the proper way to hold it. Other countries seem to manage with one word, clé, sciave, llave etc. We sometimes muddle along with key rather than wrench for no particular reason I know. That's not the worst, which is the pretentiousness of 'spanner' (in USA) topped off by the dreaded 'spanner wrench'. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#26
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Rear Derailleur
On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 2:09:49 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/11/2021 2:36 PM, Mark J. wrote: On 5/11/2021 11:39 AM, jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 11:03:59 AM UTC-7, wrote: On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 10:35:57 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 10:02:13 AM UTC-7, wrote: On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 9:39:56 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 5/11/2021 11:44 AM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 6:56:30 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote: On 5/11/2021 8:41 AM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 7:09:57 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 5/10/2021 9:42 PM, AMuzi wrote: On 5/10/2021 8:22 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 4:51:13 PM UTC-7, wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 4:19:53 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 9:59:14 AM UTC-7, wrote: I did a climbing ride sort of - it was less that 1000 feet and the steepest part was only about 9%. For some reason I was dog tired and it really hurt. 3/4ths of the way in to the ride and luckily downhill to most extent, the rear derailleur idler pully exploded. I assumed that it was the roller bearing idler pulley but working on it what happened was the the sheet metal rotational limit piece on the derailleur appears to have broken off which caused the pulley to be pulled into the cassette which broke it and this entire thing locked up the whole drive train which bent the drop out. So I have to get a replacement for that. After removing the rear derailleur it will not thread back in. Finding a replacement ought to be a whole lot of fun. It sounds like you pulled the guide pulley into the cassette and the other damage followed and not vice versa. That can happen under certain unfortunate circumstances. The rear derailleur cannot be "pulled into the cassette" though that is what I thought too. Sure it can, and it happens with fair regularity on MTBs. It can be a b-screw screw-up, limit screw screw-up, worn chain, cassette, chainrings -- a stick, rock. It can even be caused by a shift and a bump. I have never heard of the b-screw tab breaking, but maybe that happens on Campy derailleurs -- and if so, that is a major design FU, particularly considering the consequences. Until I analyzed it. The stop on the rear derailleur with is a small sheet steel washer-like mechanism that keeps the derailleur from rotating past the stop. Without that stop the idler pulley was pulled into the cassette and the entire mechanism was locked up solid. FYI, your typical pully choices are "upper or lower" or "guide pulley" (upper) or "tension pulley." (lower). I don't know what an idler pulley is on a derailleur. -- Jay Beattie. And it's simple to avoid. Finish any gear adjustment with this test: http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/gearchek.jpg image from Canada, miketechinfo.com I think Tom needs to hire a better mechanic. It seems like about a quarter of his posts are about bike wrenching screw-ups. And yet as a supposed mechanical engineer you don't even know how to hold an Allen wrench. I find it humorous that people who haven't seen a thing in their lives are so ready to tell others how to do things. Jay is telling us that since things happen on an MTB with a 42 tooth cassette they happen all the time on a Campy Record bike with a 28 tooth. If it wasn't so comical you guys would be nothing more than pitiful. Is there a 'wrong' way to hold an allen wrench? In two tentacles rather than three? What? Andrew, without actually seeing the problem or the initial setup people do not have the right to criticize other people's problems. I'm not criticizing that specific problem. I'm criticizing your mechanical aptitude in general. You've written an entire book here about your mechanical mistakes, with an appendix covering your electronic mistakes and your mis-ordered parts. You have retired the trophy for bike wrenching incompetence. As to holding Allen wrenches: I've built and rebuilt multiple bikes from the frame up. I've disassembled and rebuilt multiple engines of cars, plus motorcycles, lawn mowers and more. I'm a reasonably competent machinist and a halfway competent welder. I've taught others how to do those things. I'm not claiming to be perfect. We all make mistakes. But someone who makes as many mistakes as you should not be insulting others' mechanical aptitude. (And yes, we know, it's all Biden's fault. Please spare us the off-topic political deflection nonsense.) Tell me Frank, what were the mistakes I've written a book about. You are a person obviously on phycological medication and pretty much everyone is aware of this. What are you doing on a tech site when you've never yourself added anything to it beyond your cool lights that are never used because you sight is too bad to go out after dark? Without getting into whether there was some installation error, what you identify as "causes" are classic "effects" -- blown-up pulley, broken B-tension screw tab, etc., etc. I think you have cause and effect backward on this one. It wasn't a B tension screw. Why are you talking about things you don't understand? The part that broke is known as a RD-RE116 and is s completely different part than the B-tension screw. It didn't bend and it did loose - it failed from metal fatigue. This didn't occur in the 8 speed units because the ratios between gears was high enough that you didn't have to shift from high gear to low very often. That's not a sheet metal piece like you described (in your usual vague and sketchy way), and the typical failure mode for similar b-tension plates is, again, the derailleur getting pulled into the cassettes. SRAM uses a somewhat similar plate with a screw, and those have been known to break if the derailleur body is under-tightened to the hanger or if it becomes loose during riding. I doubt these plates see much in the way of fatigue if properly installed because they are squeezed between the derailleur body and the dropout, but I'll leave the fatigue analysis to Frank. -- Jay Beattie. I'm confused about this "derailleur pulled into the cassette" phenomenon. What is it? I've witnessed first hand the derailleur- shifted-into-spokes maneuver (from 3 ft behind on a steep slow hill) - impressive to watch. Is it similar? Mark J. Pretty much except by saying 'cassette' rather than 'spokes' one's lack of mechanical diligence is excused. I'm still trying to figure out how you shift a rear derailleur into the cassette. I suppose you COULD if the cassette was larger than the capacity of the derailleur. But the short arm Campy derailleurs can shift a 29 and maybe even a 30 (Campy does sell 12 or 13-30's) But the Record says that they're capacity is 28 teeth and all of my cassettes are anywhere from 11 to 13/28 |
#27
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Rear Derailleur
On Tue, 11 May 2021 11:07:38 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote: On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 10:48:13 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote: On 5/11/2021 11:39 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 5/11/2021 11:44 AM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 6:56:30 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote: On 5/11/2021 8:41 AM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 7:09:57 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 5/10/2021 9:42 PM, AMuzi wrote: On 5/10/2021 8:22 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 4:51:13 PM UTC-7, wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 4:19:53 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 9:59:14 AM UTC-7, wrote: I did a climbing ride sort of - it was less that 1000 feet and the steepest part was only about 9%. For some reason I was dog tired and it really hurt. 3/4ths of the way in to the ride and luckily downhill to most extent, the rear derailleur idler pully exploded. I assumed that it was the roller bearing idler pulley but working on it what happened was the the sheet metal rotational limit piece on the derailleur appears to have broken off which caused the pulley to be pulled into the cassette which broke it and this entire thing locked up the whole drive train which bent the drop out. So I have to get a replacement for that. After removing the rear derailleur it will not thread back in. Finding a replacement ought to be a whole lot of fun. It sounds like you pulled the guide pulley into the cassette and the other damage followed and not vice versa. That can happen under certain unfortunate circumstances. The rear derailleur cannot be "pulled into the cassette" though that is what I thought too. Sure it can, and it happens with fair regularity on MTBs. It can be a b-screw screw-up, limit screw screw-up, worn chain, cassette, chainrings -- a stick, rock. It can even be caused by a shift and a bump. I have never heard of the b-screw tab breaking, but maybe that happens on Campy derailleurs -- and if so, that is a major design FU, particularly considering the consequences. Until I analyzed it. The stop on the rear derailleur with is a small sheet steel washer-like mechanism that keeps the derailleur from rotating past the stop. Without that stop the idler pulley was pulled into the cassette and the entire mechanism was locked up solid. FYI, your typical pully choices are "upper or lower" or "guide pulley" (upper) or "tension pulley." (lower). I don't know what an idler pulley is on a derailleur. -- Jay Beattie. And it's simple to avoid. Finish any gear adjustment with this test: http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/gearchek.jpg image from Canada, miketechinfo.com I think Tom needs to hire a better mechanic. It seems like about a quarter of his posts are about bike wrenching screw-ups. And yet as a supposed mechanical engineer you don't even know how to hold an Allen wrench. I find it humorous that people who haven't seen a thing in their lives are so ready to tell others how to do things. Jay is telling us that since things happen on an MTB with a 42 tooth cassette they happen all the time on a Campy Record bike with a 28 tooth. If it wasn't so comical you guys would be nothing more than pitiful. Is there a 'wrong' way to hold an allen wrench? In two tentacles rather than three? What? Andrew, without actually seeing the problem or the initial setup people do not have the right to criticize other people's problems. I'm not criticizing that specific problem. I'm criticizing your mechanical aptitude in general. You've written an entire book here about your mechanical mistakes, with an appendix covering your electronic mistakes and your mis-ordered parts. You have retired the trophy for bike wrenching incompetence. As to holding Allen wrenches: I've built and rebuilt multiple bikes from the frame up. I've disassembled and rebuilt multiple engines of cars, plus motorcycles, lawn mowers and more. I'm a reasonably competent machinist and a halfway competent welder. I've taught others how to do those things. I'm not claiming to be perfect. We all make mistakes. But someone who makes as many mistakes as you should not be insulting others' mechanical aptitude. (And yes, we know, it's all Biden's fault. Please spare us the off-topic political deflection nonsense.) Obviously dancing around the question of how to correctly hold an allen key. We're waiting! What is there to dance around? Frank may be a mechanical engineer but that doesn't mean that he is ANY kind of a mechanic. They have made torque wrenches so that people like Frank do not overtighten Allen bolts in carbon fiber frames. What has Frank ever added to this group that wasn't purely criticism? Well, you have been asked "how to correctly hold an allen key" and so far you haven't answered. Rather you are "dancing all around Robin Hood's barn" to avoid the question. Is it that you don't understand how to hold an allen wrench/key? Just like you are unable to define communism or geopolitics. It is becoming more and more apparent that Old Tommy just doesn't know what he is talking about. Hereinafter refereed to as "Dumb Ass Tom". -- Cheers, John B. |
#28
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Rear Derailleur
On Tue, 11 May 2021 18:08:16 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/11/2021 5:15 PM, John B. wrote: On Tue, 11 May 2021 12:48:06 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 5/11/2021 11:39 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 5/11/2021 11:44 AM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 6:56:30 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote: On 5/11/2021 8:41 AM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 7:09:57 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 5/10/2021 9:42 PM, AMuzi wrote: On 5/10/2021 8:22 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 4:51:13 PM UTC-7, wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 4:19:53 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 9:59:14 AM UTC-7, wrote: I did a climbing ride sort of - it was less that 1000 feet and the steepest part was only about 9%. For some reason I was dog tired and it really hurt. 3/4ths of the way in to the ride and luckily downhill to most extent, the rear derailleur idler pully exploded. I assumed that it was the roller bearing idler pulley but working on it what happened was the the sheet metal rotational limit piece on the derailleur appears to have broken off which caused the pulley to be pulled into the cassette which broke it and this entire thing locked up the whole drive train which bent the drop out. So I have to get a replacement for that. After removing the rear derailleur it will not thread back in. Finding a replacement ought to be a whole lot of fun. It sounds like you pulled the guide pulley into the cassette and the other damage followed and not vice versa. That can happen under certain unfortunate circumstances. The rear derailleur cannot be "pulled into the cassette" though that is what I thought too. Sure it can, and it happens with fair regularity on MTBs. It can be a b-screw screw-up, limit screw screw-up, worn chain, cassette, chainrings -- a stick, rock. It can even be caused by a shift and a bump. I have never heard of the b-screw tab breaking, but maybe that happens on Campy derailleurs -- and if so, that is a major design FU, particularly considering the consequences. Until I analyzed it. The stop on the rear derailleur with is a small sheet steel washer-like mechanism that keeps the derailleur from rotating past the stop. Without that stop the idler pulley was pulled into the cassette and the entire mechanism was locked up solid. FYI, your typical pully choices are "upper or lower" or "guide pulley" (upper) or "tension pulley." (lower). I don't know what an idler pulley is on a derailleur. -- Jay Beattie. And it's simple to avoid. Finish any gear adjustment with this test: http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/gearchek.jpg image from Canada, miketechinfo.com I think Tom needs to hire a better mechanic. It seems like about a quarter of his posts are about bike wrenching screw-ups. And yet as a supposed mechanical engineer you don't even know how to hold an Allen wrench. I find it humorous that people who haven't seen a thing in their lives are so ready to tell others how to do things. Jay is telling us that since things happen on an MTB with a 42 tooth cassette they happen all the time on a Campy Record bike with a 28 tooth. If it wasn't so comical you guys would be nothing more than pitiful. Is there a 'wrong' way to hold an allen wrench? In two tentacles rather than three? What? Andrew, without actually seeing the problem or the initial setup people do not have the right to criticize other people's problems. I'm not criticizing that specific problem. I'm criticizing your mechanical aptitude in general. You've written an entire book here about your mechanical mistakes, with an appendix covering your electronic mistakes and your mis-ordered parts. You have retired the trophy for bike wrenching incompetence. As to holding Allen wrenches: I've built and rebuilt multiple bikes from the frame up. I've disassembled and rebuilt multiple engines of cars, plus motorcycles, lawn mowers and more. I'm a reasonably competent machinist and a halfway competent welder. I've taught others how to do those things. I'm not claiming to be perfect. We all make mistakes. But someone who makes as many mistakes as you should not be insulting others' mechanical aptitude. (And yes, we know, it's all Biden's fault. Please spare us the off-topic political deflection nonsense.) Obviously dancing around the question of how to correctly hold an allen key. We're waiting! The first problem will be to determine whether it is an "allen key" or an "allen wrench" Amazon sells "allen wrenches" https://www.amazon.com/allen-wrench/s?k=allen+wrench while McMaster-Carr sell "allen keys" https://www.mcmaster.com/allen-keys/ One certainly would not want to select an improper "allen xyz" before demonstrating the proper way to hold it. Other countries seem to manage with one word, clé, sciave, llave etc. We sometimes muddle along with key rather than wrench for no particular reason I know. That's not the worst, which is the pretentiousness of 'spanner' (in USA) topped off by the dreaded 'spanner wrench'. Probably due to all the various "nationalities" what now make up the U.S. After all the original inhabitants didn't have a word for a tool to manipulate such things as nuts. bolts and screws so "foreign" terms were necessary :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
#29
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Rear Derailleur
On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 4:46:23 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 2:09:49 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote: On 5/11/2021 2:36 PM, Mark J. wrote: On 5/11/2021 11:39 AM, jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 11:03:59 AM UTC-7, wrote: On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 10:35:57 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 10:02:13 AM UTC-7, wrote: On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 9:39:56 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 5/11/2021 11:44 AM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 6:56:30 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote: On 5/11/2021 8:41 AM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 7:09:57 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 5/10/2021 9:42 PM, AMuzi wrote: On 5/10/2021 8:22 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 4:51:13 PM UTC-7, wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 4:19:53 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 9:59:14 AM UTC-7, wrote: I did a climbing ride sort of - it was less that 1000 feet and the steepest part was only about 9%. For some reason I was dog tired and it really hurt. 3/4ths of the way in to the ride and luckily downhill to most extent, the rear derailleur idler pully exploded. I assumed that it was the roller bearing idler pulley but working on it what happened was the the sheet metal rotational limit piece on the derailleur appears to have broken off which caused the pulley to be pulled into the cassette which broke it and this entire thing locked up the whole drive train which bent the drop out. So I have to get a replacement for that. After removing the rear derailleur it will not thread back in. Finding a replacement ought to be a whole lot of fun. It sounds like you pulled the guide pulley into the cassette and the other damage followed and not vice versa. That can happen under certain unfortunate circumstances. The rear derailleur cannot be "pulled into the cassette" though that is what I thought too. Sure it can, and it happens with fair regularity on MTBs. It can be a b-screw screw-up, limit screw screw-up, worn chain, cassette, chainrings -- a stick, rock. It can even be caused by a shift and a bump. I have never heard of the b-screw tab breaking, but maybe that happens on Campy derailleurs -- and if so, that is a major design FU, particularly considering the consequences. Until I analyzed it. The stop on the rear derailleur with is a small sheet steel washer-like mechanism that keeps the derailleur from rotating past the stop. Without that stop the idler pulley was pulled into the cassette and the entire mechanism was locked up solid. FYI, your typical pully choices are "upper or lower" or "guide pulley" (upper) or "tension pulley." (lower). I don't know what an idler pulley is on a derailleur. -- Jay Beattie. And it's simple to avoid. Finish any gear adjustment with this test: http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/gearchek.jpg image from Canada, miketechinfo.com I think Tom needs to hire a better mechanic. It seems like about a quarter of his posts are about bike wrenching screw-ups. And yet as a supposed mechanical engineer you don't even know how to hold an Allen wrench. I find it humorous that people who haven't seen a thing in their lives are so ready to tell others how to do things. Jay is telling us that since things happen on an MTB with a 42 tooth cassette they happen all the time on a Campy Record bike with a 28 tooth. If it wasn't so comical you guys would be nothing more than pitiful. Is there a 'wrong' way to hold an allen wrench? In two tentacles rather than three? What? Andrew, without actually seeing the problem or the initial setup people do not have the right to criticize other people's problems. I'm not criticizing that specific problem. I'm criticizing your mechanical aptitude in general. You've written an entire book here about your mechanical mistakes, with an appendix covering your electronic mistakes and your mis-ordered parts. You have retired the trophy for bike wrenching incompetence. As to holding Allen wrenches: I've built and rebuilt multiple bikes from the frame up. I've disassembled and rebuilt multiple engines of cars, plus motorcycles, lawn mowers and more. I'm a reasonably competent machinist and a halfway competent welder. I've taught others how to do those things. I'm not claiming to be perfect. We all make mistakes. But someone who makes as many mistakes as you should not be insulting others' mechanical aptitude. (And yes, we know, it's all Biden's fault. Please spare us the off-topic political deflection nonsense.) Tell me Frank, what were the mistakes I've written a book about. You are a person obviously on phycological medication and pretty much everyone is aware of this. What are you doing on a tech site when you've never yourself added anything to it beyond your cool lights that are never used because you sight is too bad to go out after dark? Without getting into whether there was some installation error, what you identify as "causes" are classic "effects" -- blown-up pulley, broken B-tension screw tab, etc., etc. I think you have cause and effect backward on this one. It wasn't a B tension screw. Why are you talking about things you don't understand? The part that broke is known as a RD-RE116 and is s completely different part than the B-tension screw. It didn't bend and it did loose - it failed from metal fatigue. This didn't occur in the 8 speed units because the ratios between gears was high enough that you didn't have to shift from high gear to low very often. That's not a sheet metal piece like you described (in your usual vague and sketchy way), and the typical failure mode for similar b-tension plates is, again, the derailleur getting pulled into the cassettes. SRAM uses a somewhat similar plate with a screw, and those have been known to break if the derailleur body is under-tightened to the hanger or if it becomes loose during riding. I doubt these plates see much in the way of fatigue if properly installed because they are squeezed between the derailleur body and the dropout, but I'll leave the fatigue analysis to Frank. -- Jay Beattie. I'm confused about this "derailleur pulled into the cassette" phenomenon. What is it? I've witnessed first hand the derailleur- shifted-into-spokes maneuver (from 3 ft behind on a steep slow hill) - impressive to watch. Is it similar? Mark J. Pretty much except by saying 'cassette' rather than 'spokes' one's lack of mechanical diligence is excused. I'm still trying to figure out how you shift a rear derailleur into the cassette. I suppose you COULD if the cassette was larger than the capacity of the derailleur. But the short arm Campy derailleurs can shift a 29 and maybe even a 30 (Campy does sell 12 or 13-30's) But the Record says that they're capacity is 28 teeth and all of my cassettes are anywhere from 11 to 13/28 See: https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-m...new-chain.html Mid-cassette, many causes speculated. -- Jay Beattie. |
#30
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Rear Derailleur
On 5/11/2021 2:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
Frank may be a mechanical engineer but that doesn't mean that he is ANY kind of a mechanic. They have made torque wrenches so that people like Frank do not overtighten Allen bolts in carbon fiber frames. Torque wrenches have been around forever. I bought my first one when I was about 18, and used it for cylinder heads, main bearings and many other things on cars and motorcycles before I ever got my first good quality bicycle. And how odd that Tom is talking about tightening carbon fiber components so soon after describing his handlebars rotating in his stem as he was riding! Yet another of his continuing mistakes. Seriously, Tom, give the insults a rest. Hire a mechanic. You can afford one, can't you? -- - Frank Krygowski |
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