Lezyne Deca Drive 1500XXL Report

On Sun, 5 Mar 2017 22:50:43 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/5/2017 7:55 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 5 Mar 2017 10:55:08 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Sunday, March 5, 2017 at 11:10:47 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/4/2017 7:13 PM, James wrote:
On 05/03/17 04:36, Frank Krygowski wrote:


I'm astonished. What's the "period" on "periodically"
whacking tree
branches? How badly have you been hurt by these "whacks"?
Where on the
road are you riding when that happens? What do the SUV
drivers and
truck drivers do when they come to these tree branches?
Do you know
cyclists who have been injured by these tree branch
whacks? Is there no
agency that keeps the streets clear of such hazards? Why
would people
not demand that?


While I was living in Brisbane, I used a section of road
where there is a painted on bike lane and young planted
trees that overhang the bike lane at times. They may have
been trimmed, but a year ago I would move just outside the
bike lane to avoid branches.

/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sM4L3bVhiqbK8iGQCb9-7xg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1


No injuries or other mishaps to report.


While surely not every cyclist on every ride, a tree in the
head is common enough, except in Frank's village. Much more
for offroad cyclists but not unknown in small lanes and
kiddy paths, ex-rail corridors, parks etc.

I don't doubt the "not unknown" in those special circumstances. But "not
unknown" is another way of saying "it's happened at least once." Perhaps on
kiddy paths. Perhaps on badly maintained rail trails. I don't think it's
possible to specify a lower bar for "Danger! Danger!"

Let's remember that the original point (by Scharf) is that a road-riding
cyclist is in danger if he uses a modern StVZO headlamp because he can't
see tree branches low enough to "whack" him in the head.

So far, nobody has produced a single incident describing such an injury. And
I've been extremely interested in bike injury data for probably 20+ years now.
I've never encountered an account of such an injury.

I've heard of people seriously injured by getting their front wheel in an
Amish buggy rut; or by having their studded tire lose traction on an ice dam at
the end of their driveway, after a successful ride home in snow and ice; or by
sliding into a crash due to slimy mud that washed across an MUP; or by running
into a pedestrian who suddenly turned in front of them; or by other weird
mechanisms. But I've never heard of a road cyclist (or actually, even an off-
road cyclist) injured by running his head into a tree branch.

If we can have just a few specific examples, this "hazard" might be believable.
But where are those examples?

- Frank Krygowski

Actually I did get knocked off my bile by a low hanging branch and
broke my pelvis.

However it was not quite what the California Boys are talking about as
it was perfectly visible, it was bright and sunny, about 10:00 in the
morning, and I elected to duck under the branch but, obviously, didn't
duck quite low enough.

I'm interested in the details. Care to describe the situation more
thoroughly?

O.K.

I was in Phuket, 100km into what would have been about a 135km ride,
as I had done four days previously. I was "on my way home". It was a
Sunday, about 10:00am on what is technically a 6 lane divided highway
with fairly heavy holiday traffic.

As on most Thai highways the outer lanes are normally bus lanes,
parking or breakdown lanes and that is where, by law, bicycles travel.
Due to the heavy traffic there were some cars using the outer lane but
I had sufficient space, probably 3 - 4 feet, that there really wasn't
any problem there.

I was riding at ~30kph and the road was essentially flat and straight.
The edges of the road consisted of a vertical cement curb, maybe 8 -
10" high at the edge of the pavement, a grass separator with some
smallish trees and than a concrete sidewalk. Motor traffic was
traveling probably 100 - 125kph with the highest speed on the inside
lane. The "smallish trees" had some limbs on the road side but not
very long, nor very thick.

I had been swerving, maybe a foot or so, out toward the center of the
road for some limbs but as I approached this particular tree when I
looked back over my shoulder there were two or three cars overtaking
me, rather quickly, so I thought it probably wise not to swerve out
into the road in front of two or three cars traveling at 3 or 4 times
my speed and anyway, the limb didn't look very large or long so I
elected to duck down over the bars and bow my head so at worse if I
hit the limb it would bend up and I'd slide under it.

My last conscious thought was "that limb seems awful big".

The limb apparently knocked me straight back off the bike and I fell,
again apparently, on my left hip and than onto my left shoulder. I
have no memory from my last conscious thought until I was laying on
the road in agony and the bike was lying about 10 feet further on more
or less straight down the road in line with me.

I suffered a non-displaced fracture of my pelvis at the rear portion
of the socket for my left femur and a severely bruised left shoulder.

After I recovered I stopped at "my tree" to see if I could figure out
what happened. It turned out that the highway crews had been carefully
pruning any limbs the stuck out into the road. By cutting the limb off
where it extended into the road.

So what I hit was the outer section of a tree limb that was about the
diameter of my wrist and covered with this years growth of slender
green limbs so it appears to be a rather benign barrier.

In retrospect I can only say that it was mostly my fault. I was on my
way home with roughly three quarters of the ride completed. It was
starting to get hot I reckoned that I had about an hour more to ride
and that would make it nearly noon when it would be really hot.

In addition I had been doing quite a number of non stop 100km rides
that year and this was the second 125km ride in a week and I thought
it was going pretty well so I certainly didn't want to slow down any.

I still ride that route and I still pass that tree "with my head
down", as it were, but I do tend to give it a bit more elbow room now.

By the way, there is a tree on one of my Bangkok routes that is even
more savage. It is straight up to about shoulder height of a cyclist,
bends 90 degrees out over the road and than another 90 degrees
straight up. and that one is as thick as my thigh. Automobiles and
buses swerve to avoid that one :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 3/5/2017 12:55 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Sunday, March 5, 2017 at 11:10:47 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/4/2017 7:13 PM, James wrote:
On 05/03/17 04:36, Frank Krygowski wrote:


I'm astonished. What's the "period" on "periodically"
whacking tree
branches? How badly have you been hurt by these "whacks"?
Where on the
road are you riding when that happens? What do the SUV
drivers and
truck drivers do when they come to these tree branches?
Do you know
cyclists who have been injured by these tree branch
whacks? Is there no
agency that keeps the streets clear of such hazards? Why
would people
not demand that?


While I was living in Brisbane, I used a section of road
where there is a painted on bike lane and young planted
trees that overhang the bike lane at times. They may have
been trimmed, but a year ago I would move just outside the
bike lane to avoid branches.

/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sM4L3bVhiqbK8iGQCb9-7xg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1


No injuries or other mishaps to report.


While surely not every cyclist on every ride, a tree in the
head is common enough, except in Frank's village. Much more
for offroad cyclists but not unknown in small lanes and
kiddy paths, ex-rail corridors, parks etc.

I don't doubt the "not unknown" in those special circumstances. But "not
unknown" is another way of saying "it's happened at least once." Perhaps on
kiddy paths. Perhaps on badly maintained rail trails. I don't think it's
possible to specify a lower bar for "Danger! Danger!"

Let's remember that the original point (by Scharf) is that a road-riding
cyclist is in danger if he uses a modern StVZO headlamp because he can't
see tree branches low enough to "whack" him in the head.

So far, nobody has produced a single incident describing such an injury. And
I've been extremely interested in bike injury data for probably 20+ years now.
I've never encountered an account of such an injury.

I've heard of people seriously injured by getting their front wheel in an
Amish buggy rut; or by having their studded tire lose traction on an ice dam at
the end of their driveway, after a successful ride home in snow and ice; or by
sliding into a crash due to slimy mud that washed across an MUP; or by running
into a pedestrian who suddenly turned in front of them; or by other weird
mechanisms. But I've never heard of a road cyclist (or actually, even an off-
road cyclist) injured by running his head into a tree branch.

If we can have just a few specific examples, this "hazard" might be believable.
But where are those examples?

- Frank Krygowski


Right. In the various reports of tree in head, I don't know
of a single injury, even minor. It's startling, such that
riders recount the event, but probably not actually
dangerous except on technical offroad trails.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 06/03/2017 9:13 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/5/2017 12:55 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Sunday, March 5, 2017 at 11:10:47 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/4/2017 7:13 PM, James wrote:
On 05/03/17 04:36, Frank Krygowski wrote:


I'm astonished. What's the "period" on "periodically"
whacking tree
branches? How badly have you been hurt by these "whacks"?
Where on the
road are you riding when that happens? What do the SUV
drivers and
truck drivers do when they come to these tree branches?
Do you know
cyclists who have been injured by these tree branch
whacks? Is there no
agency that keeps the streets clear of such hazards? Why
would people
not demand that?


While I was living in Brisbane, I used a section of road
where there is a painted on bike lane and young planted
trees that overhang the bike lane at times. They may have
been trimmed, but a year ago I would move just outside the
bike lane to avoid branches.

/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sM4L3bVhiqbK8iGQCb9-7xg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1



No injuries or other mishaps to report.


While surely not every cyclist on every ride, a tree in the
head is common enough, except in Frank's village. Much more
for offroad cyclists but not unknown in small lanes and
kiddy paths, ex-rail corridors, parks etc.

I don't doubt the "not unknown" in those special circumstances. But "not
unknown" is another way of saying "it's happened at least once."
Perhaps on
kiddy paths. Perhaps on badly maintained rail trails. I don't think it's
possible to specify a lower bar for "Danger! Danger!"

Let's remember that the original point (by Scharf) is that a road-riding
cyclist is in danger if he uses a modern StVZO headlamp because he can't
see tree branches low enough to "whack" him in the head.

So far, nobody has produced a single incident describing such an
injury. And
I've been extremely interested in bike injury data for probably 20+
years now.
I've never encountered an account of such an injury.

I've heard of people seriously injured by getting their front wheel in an
Amish buggy rut; or by having their studded tire lose traction on an
ice dam at
the end of their driveway, after a successful ride home in snow and
ice; or by
sliding into a crash due to slimy mud that washed across an MUP; or by
running
into a pedestrian who suddenly turned in front of them; or by other weird
mechanisms. But I've never heard of a road cyclist (or actually, even
an off-
road cyclist) injured by running his head into a tree branch.

If we can have just a few specific examples, this "hazard" might be
believable.
But where are those examples?

- Frank Krygowski


Right. In the various reports of tree in head, I don't know of a single
injury, even minor. It's startling, such that riders recount the event,
but probably not actually dangerous except on technical offroad trails.


I guess most people avoid the branches. It doesn't mean they don't
exist. In New Orleans with the live oaks and wild growing shrubbery
it's not unusual to have to avoid low hanging branches when riding -
especially uptown. You'd have to be drunk or stupid or both to hit them
though.

On the other hand, sounds like John B's broken hip would count as an
injury...

On Sunday, March 5, 2017 at 4:55:05 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:

I wonder, had I had lights would I have been uninjured? Or maybe that
carbon fork?

One of these days John.......

On Sunday, March 5, 2017 at 9:44:02 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On 04/03/17 02:26, wrote:


I'd like to know how you can average almost 19 mph on a bike that has
lights and generator attached. After all it isn't as if those would
be attached to a Specialized Tarmac.


My bicycle at race weight, without bidons, pump, spare tubes, dynamo and
lights, weighs around 8.4kg (18 1/2lb). I guess with all the other
stuff it would be over 10kg for sure.

Today I rode 50+km to a nearby town to have a coffee with a mate who is
visiting the area. I rode a longer way home that has a few more hills
and is more scenic than the most direct route. 112km total for the
morning. It was hot for the last couple of hours, and I probably didn't
drink enough. I ate a chocolate brownie with my coffee, and two muesli
bars on the way home.

Average speed was 29.9km/h. It had been about 31.5km/h up until the
last hour where the biggest hills are. As I said, it was hot and I was
beginning to fade.

But this isn't out of the ordinary for me or my peers. Most A grade
club riders would/should be able to do similar I hope, if not much better.

My Eddy Merckx Corsa Extra weighs in at about 25 lbs with all of the additional crap on it. At first I could notice it but very rapidly that disappeared.

So what I'm thinking is that lightweights are only advantageous on hard climbs under light riders.

On 2017-03-05 15:07, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
analogconsultants



http://www.americanriverbiketrail.com/


You mean the rock slide? There are now to more of those and the latest
word is that it ain't going to be cleaned up before later in spring. IOW
that trail section is history for a while. I used to ride through there
weekly :-(

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Monday, March 6, 2017 at 11:14:36 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-05 15:07, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
analogconsultants



http://www.americanriverbiketrail.com/


You mean the rock slide? There are now to more of those and the latest
word is that it ain't going to be cleaned up before later in spring. IOW
that trail section is history for a while. I used to ride through there
weekly :-(

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

ach ! Goo tossed up https://www.singletracks.com/bike-tr...ce-trails.html first search ...I cudnah find the county ink right off ..


the photos reminded that altho the trails beds are from the 1850's on...the forest above was cut or burned so falling debris is unavoidable.

S.Cal even worser ... the Petrolia-Shelter trail n downhill from above Westport ?

tellya what put your shovel where your mouth is n volunteer !

On 2017-03-06 09:41, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
On Monday, March 6, 2017 at 11:14:36 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-05 15:07, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
analogconsultants



http://www.americanriverbiketrail.com/


You mean the rock slide? There are now to more of those and the
latest word is that it ain't going to be cleaned up before later in
spring. IOW that trail section is history for a while. I used to
ride through there weekly :-(

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

ach ! Goo tossed up
https://www.singletracks.com/bike-tr...ce-trails.html
first search ...I cudnah find the county ink right off ..


the photos reminded that altho the trails beds are from the 1850's
on...the forest above was cut or burned so falling debris is
unavoidable.

S.Cal even worser ... the Petrolia-Shelter trail n downhill from
above Westport ?

tellya what put your shovel where your mouth is n volunteer !


http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/p9l...E_960/IMG_0577

Wot shovel?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Monday, March 6, 2017 at 10:37:15 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-06 09:41, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
On Monday, March 6, 2017 at 11:14:36 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-05 15:07, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
analogconsultants



http://www.americanriverbiketrail.com/


You mean the rock slide? There are now to more of those and the
latest word is that it ain't going to be cleaned up before later in
spring. IOW that trail section is history for a while. I used to
ride through there weekly :-(

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

ach ! Goo tossed up
https://www.singletracks.com/bike-tr...ce-trails.html
first search ...I cudnah find the county ink right off ..


the photos reminded that altho the trails beds are from the 1850's
on...the forest above was cut or burned so falling debris is
unavoidable.

S.Cal even worser ... the Petrolia-Shelter trail n downhill from
above Westport ?

tellya what put your shovel where your mouth is n volunteer !


http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/p9l...E_960/IMG_0577

Wot shovel?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

https://www.google.com/search?q=atha...BuPCu2ittnFaM:

On Monday, March 6, 2017 at 9:31:28 AM UTC-5, Duane wrote:
On 06/03/2017 9:13 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/5/2017 12:55 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Sunday, March 5, 2017 at 11:10:47 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/4/2017 7:13 PM, James wrote:
On 05/03/17 04:36, Frank Krygowski wrote:


I'm astonished. What's the "period" on "periodically"
whacking tree
branches? How badly have you been hurt by these "whacks"?
Where on the
road are you riding when that happens? What do the SUV
drivers and
truck drivers do when they come to these tree branches?
Do you know
cyclists who have been injured by these tree branch
whacks? Is there no
agency that keeps the streets clear of such hazards? Why
would people
not demand that?


While I was living in Brisbane, I used a section of road
where there is a painted on bike lane and young planted
trees that overhang the bike lane at times. They may have
been trimmed, but a year ago I would move just outside the
bike lane to avoid branches.

/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sM4L3bVhiqbK8iGQCb9-7xg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1



No injuries or other mishaps to report.


While surely not every cyclist on every ride, a tree in the
head is common enough, except in Frank's village. Much more
for offroad cyclists but not unknown in small lanes and
kiddy paths, ex-rail corridors, parks etc.

I don't doubt the "not unknown" in those special circumstances. But "not
unknown" is another way of saying "it's happened at least once."
Perhaps on
kiddy paths. Perhaps on badly maintained rail trails. I don't think it's
possible to specify a lower bar for "Danger! Danger!"

Let's remember that the original point (by Scharf) is that a road-riding
cyclist is in danger if he uses a modern StVZO headlamp because he can't
see tree branches low enough to "whack" him in the head.

So far, nobody has produced a single incident describing such an
injury. And
I've been extremely interested in bike injury data for probably 20+
years now.
I've never encountered an account of such an injury.

I've heard of people seriously injured by getting their front wheel in an
Amish buggy rut; or by having their studded tire lose traction on an
ice dam at
the end of their driveway, after a successful ride home in snow and
ice; or by
sliding into a crash due to slimy mud that washed across an MUP; or by
running
into a pedestrian who suddenly turned in front of them; or by other weird
mechanisms. But I've never heard of a road cyclist (or actually, even
an off-
road cyclist) injured by running his head into a tree branch.

If we can have just a few specific examples, this "hazard" might be
believable.
But where are those examples?

- Frank Krygowski


Right. In the various reports of tree in head, I don't know of a single
injury, even minor. It's startling, such that riders recount the event,
but probably not actually dangerous except on technical offroad trails.


I guess most people avoid the branches. It doesn't mean they don't
exist. In New Orleans with the live oaks and wild growing shrubbery
it's not unusual to have to avoid low hanging branches when riding -
especially uptown. You'd have to be drunk or stupid or both to hit them
though.

On the other hand, sounds like John B's broken hip would count as an
injury...

Of course John's was an injury. And yes, most people do avoid tree branches
when they exist - probably because the ones riding in the gutter are riding
slowly enough that they can stop. Those riding faster generally ride further
out in the lane. And despite Scharf's fantasies, motorists don't allow low
branches to exist for long.

Let's remember, the root of this discussion is whether StVZO headlight beams are
dangerous because of tree branches hanging low over roads. "Tree branches
exist" is quite different from proving Scharf's thesis.

- Frank Krygowski