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  #81  
Old August 27th 19, 12:29 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Default Chinese Carbon Wheelset

On Monday, August 26, 2019 at 9:23:58 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, August 26, 2019 at 12:17:21 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, August 25, 2019 at 11:55:46 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, August 25, 2019 at 2:26:55 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, August 25, 2019 at 11:16:36 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 2:39:01 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 11:36:31 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 2:18:05 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 25/8/19 5:18 am, Tom Kunich wrote:


I have never used "carbon paste" for anything and can't imagine why.


Imagine harder.

--
JS

Why? I have had CF frames for a long time. I've never even SEEN "carbon paste" let alone used it for anything.

Really? Google it, it has been around for ages.

Lou

Toothpaste has been around for ages as well and I sure as hell ain't putting it on my bike.

From someone who has a slipping seat post and an awful track record in breaking things I would expect a smarter reply.

Lou

So you don't own any of this stuff yourself but you know all about it?


Tom I own bike stuff you only can dream of. That aside it isn't rocket science even Jay knows about it and he is a laywer. When CF seatposts came around for reason you can argue about you got warned not to use grease to prevent seizing and/or squeeking and you get warned not to overtighten the clamp. With the limited torque sometimes you got a slipping and squeeking CF seatpost. The use of carbon paste took care of that. With CF seatposts we went through a learning curve and most of the CF seatpost sold today benefited from that learning curve and have quite a safety margin. The main advantages of modern CF seatpost isn't weight but comfort and aero.

Lou


lou, I don't dream of bikes or parts. If I want them I buy them. You don't have anything I want. Properly made seat posts don's slip in properly made seat tubes. I just installed a non-Colnago 27.2 mm seat post in the same place and marked it and it hasn't moved the tiniest amount. And though it is 50 mm longer it is lighter. That Colnago seatpost used to be in a Master so I assume that over the years it has been worn down. (the fact why you don't put an abrasive on something that may be moved over time) Since I threw it in the trash after two rides on the replacement I don't have it here to measure. But it appeared to be machined down from a larger size.


Seatpost and seat tube should have a snug fit without any clamp force applied otherwise the clamping method is a flawed design. If a seatpost fall down into the seat tube with no clamp force is applied you will have a very limited clamping area when you torque the clamp. Most seatpost seat tube combinations are like that. Even when clamped your seatpost will rock forward and backward tiny amounts resulting in creaks and moving the seatpost down slowly. Carbon past will help especially in case of CF seatpost were the max torque is limited. I agree with you that if the seat post and the seattube have the proper fit clamping is much more secure. Most of the times this isn't the case.

Lou
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  #82  
Old August 27th 19, 02:50 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Bertrand[_3_]
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Posts: 52
Default Chinese Carbon Wheelset

You don’t create markets by convincing consumers to need what you want to
sell.


Semi-famous quote from Steve Jobs:

"People don't know what they want until you show it to them."



  #83  
Old August 27th 19, 02:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Default Chinese Carbon Wheelset

On Tuesday, 27 August 2019 00:34:59 UTC-4, James wrote:
On 27/8/19 12:33 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/26/2019 4:19 PM, AMuzi wrote:



You often deride 'fashion', not recognizing that your own fashion is a
decided subset of cycling overall.


Well, in a sense, you're right: I certainly don't recognize my bike
equipment choices as "fashion." A '72 steel frame bike with racks and
bags and dyno lighting? An old touring bike with big bags front and
back? A folding bike? An ancient tandem? My club members joke about how
unfashionable I am!


"Steel is real" is a fashion statement. Old steel road bikes are a
"thing". Look at l'Eroica, for example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Eroica

There are similar events in other countries as well. You would fit
right in!


My choices are based on what I find works best for me. Pragmatism and
utility are pretty much the opposite of fashion.


Strangely enough, I base my choices on what I find works best for me,
and my choices are not the same as yours, or Jay's, or Duane's, or
Joerg's, or ...


--
JS


Even the Eroica has problems with certain components. For example they will NOT give you a certificate if you participate with a bicycle that has Shimano Dura Ace AX, 600 AX or even Adamas AX. That's because each of those groups has AERO brake levers which are a real no no for meeting Eroica requirements never mind the fact that they were made well within the cut-off date for mandated Eroica permissible components. According to the Eroica people I corresponded with "No aero brake levers are allowed".

I have a couple of bicycles that have 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo levers and rear derailleur on them. One of those bicycles is my paved-road touring bicycle. It's really nice to be able to shift anytime I want whilst riding a loaded touring bicycle up a hill in gusty-wind conditions. I find I shift more often with those Ergo levers and thus save a lot of energy over the course of the day.

The thing is that different people have different needs, wants, or even preferences.

Cheers
  #84  
Old August 27th 19, 04:44 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Chinese Carbon Wheelset

On 8/27/2019 12:34 AM, James wrote:
On 27/8/19 12:33 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/26/2019 4:19 PM, AMuzi wrote:



You often deride 'fashion', not recognizing that your own fashion is
a decided subset of cycling overall.


Well, in a sense, you're right: I certainly don't recognize my bike
equipment choices as "fashion." A '72 steel frame bike with racks and
bags and dyno lighting? An old touring bike with big bags front and
back? A folding bike? An ancient tandem? My club members joke about
how unfashionable I am!


"Steel is real" is a fashion statement.* Old steel road bikes are a
"thing".* Look at l'Eroica, for example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Eroica


I understand that steel is fashion for some people. But this steel bike
is the only bike I had for many years, when the only possible
alternative might have been an Alan, which I couldn't afford anyway.
I've simply maintained it and kept riding it.

It's kind of like telling a guy "Oh, you're into the new fashion of
monogamy! You've been married to the same woman for 47 years!"


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #85  
Old August 27th 19, 05:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Chinese Carbon Wheelset

On 8/26/2019 11:14 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, August 26, 2019 at 7:47:01 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/26/2019 6:00 PM, Duane wrote:
jbeattie wrote:

I love my Emonda. It goes to 11, and as I was riding over hill and dale
this weekend, I used every gear. Compared to my commuter pig, it's like
an eBike. I should have gotten discs! Actually, the direct mount dual
pivots stop really well, but there is the issue of rim wear.

I don’t know about using every gear but I definitely appreciate my 11
speed. I’m loving the mid compact too. Rollers are my favorite and this
setup works well.


People do love mid compacts these days. Before that, they loved standard
compacts. And before that, they loved 52-42. They once loved half-steps,
too, and I forget what other schemes I may be leaving out.

The one consistent fact is, whatever is being advertised right now is
the bees knees!


It's bizarre that you're criticizing a market trend that promotes wide gear ranges. What, to you, is a legitimate transmission? 42/52 13-21? Are you criticizing spinning? I don't get it with all your complaining about racing bikes with narrow gear ranges being foisted on the unwary consumer.


I'm not complaining about any of those. I'm merely pointing out that the
fashions continually change, and people continually buy into what's in
fashion.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #86  
Old August 27th 19, 05:08 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Chinese Carbon Wheelset

On 8/27/2019 2:28 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 10:12:19 +1000, James
wrote:

On 27/8/19 9:55 am, John B. Slocomb wrote:


A great idea. Then of course, I can print up some labels saying "125
grams lighter" for those that want to be just that little bit better
:-)



But where to put the label? If applied to the bicycle, you've made the
bicycle heavier than it was...


Who cares. It is the message that is important and our labels are
manufactured from New Chinese carbon aerogel which weighs 0.16
milligrams/cm3. The lightest substance in the world.


As soon as we can work the bugs out we plan to built bicycle frames
from this substance which, when inflated with Hydrogen, will require a
tether to prevent the bike from floating away.


:-)


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #87  
Old August 27th 19, 06:02 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_4_]
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Posts: 1,546
Default Chinese Carbon Wheelset

jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, August 26, 2019 at 7:39:30 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/26/2019 7:46 PM, Duane wrote:

You don’t create markets by convincing consumers to need what you want to
sell. Don’t you think it’s possible the suppliers are responding to the
market demand?


That's extremely naive.

Look at SUVs and pickup trucks as an example. Our area just took a
massive economic hit because GM closed the Lordstown plant where the
well-regarded Chevy Cruze was built. Their explanation? Cruze sales were
dropping, SUVs were rising.

But a local investigative reporter dug into the decision. It turns out
it was made back when Cruze sales were at their peak and rising. GM
turned down all advertising for the Cruze and turned up all advertising
for SUVs, specifically because profit per unit is much higher for SUVs.
And by golly, people bought more and more SUVs and fewer Cruzes.

It's naive to think advertising and promotion don't work. If advertising
didn't change market demand, advertising wouldn't be the massive,
massive effort it is.


What product have you purchased because of an advertisement? I almost
bought a Taco Bell taco because I liked the talking Chihuahua -- but I lost interest.

Yes, the market determines our choices, and the market wants to make
money -- and it wants us to chose new options, etc., etc. Bad market! On
the other hand, it did produce flush toilets, smart phones, STI and all
sorts of things I use every day and appreciate. Good market!


No Jay, you’re wrong. You were duped into buying those STI by being
brainwashed into the fashionable new worthless ripoff. Anything after
friction shifters is a marketing trick. You poor dope. You and the rest
of us.

But you can market 'til the cows come home, and I'm not going to buy an
F350, and I certainly don't miss the Chevy Cruze or Chevy anything. I
haven't bought any bike item because of marketing. I was looking for road
discs when they were hard to find. Some things I got because my cohorts
were gushing about it. Some things I got OE because I bought a complete
bike. That's where you get corralled -- buying complete bikes, but that
isn't marketing as much as "here it is, take it or leave it."

This also leaves out lust items and objects of art like custom steel
frames. Those purchases defy marketing and are more like opioids and
opioid receptor issues. I can't tell you why I lusted after a California
Masi or an early Bruce Gordon.

-- Jay Beattie.





--
duane
  #88  
Old August 28th 19, 12:32 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
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Posts: 547
Default Chinese Carbon Wheelset

On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 09:57:36 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 01:29:00 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 11:52:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 8/26/2019 1:24 AM, James wrote:
On 26/8/19 1:48 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/24/2019 9:58 PM, James wrote:
On 25/8/19 7:36 am, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 2:18:05 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 25/8/19 5:18 am, Tom Kunich wrote:


I have never used "carbon paste" for anything and can't
imagine why.


Imagine harder.

-- JS

Why? I have had CF frames for a long time. I've never even SEEN
"carbon paste" let alone used it for anything.



Because you complained about a CF seat post slipping.* You wrote:

"In one point it again made that noise and it appears that it was
the seat post moving. Think that I'll throw away that Campy Carbon
*seatpost and install an aluminum one."

So Tom is a case in point. He's got to be more mechanically competent
*than most recreational cyclists. He's got decades of experience. But
*even he doesn't know that carbon paste is recommended for many part
*interfaces.

I think there must be tens of thousands of newbies who will know less
*than that, and will over-torque or otherwise damage lightweight CF
parts, especially as CF gets less expensive and more common.



To be fair, it is easy to over torque many fasteners on a modern bicycle
that have no CF involved.

Most A head stems, for example, are aluminium and spec'ed for ~7 Nm.
Easy when you own a reasonable torque wrench designed for that low
torque range, and easy to strip for those with fists of ham.

And it's been easy to over torque stuff and damage parts for
generations.* All cranks for square taper BBs for example.* If you
properly grease the axle and nut or bolt, it is easy to pull a crank on
too far by over torquing the fastener.

Heck, if you over tighten spoke nipples you'll pull a nipple through an
aluminium rim sooner or later, or damage a hub or break spokes!

That's true, but the examples you gave pertain mostly to either
lightweight equipment or equipment (cranks, spokes) that the casual
cyclist doesn't typically deal with.

Casual cyclists are the ones who are least likely to have torque
wrenches, or to bother reading manuals for torque specs. Those people
are most likely to adjust just a few things: Saddle height and tilt,
stem height, handlebar tilt, and left-to-right handlebar straightness.
Those can and should be designed to withstand ham-fisted newbie
mechanics, and to not require exotic elixers that ordinary homeowners
have never heard of.

Maybe this could be a compromise: Make every bike in two models. One
model would withstand the hacking of a typical garage mechanic. The
other model would require a torque table and torque wrench. But the
delicate model would come with bright red or bright yellow "DELICATE!"
labels permanently fastened at every vulnerable joint. And somewhere on
the frame, another bright yellow label saying "This DELICATE model is
124 grams [or whatever] lighter than its stronger mate."

A great idea. Then of course, I can print up some labels saying "125
grams lighter" for those that want to be just that little bit better
:-)
--
But you guys dont mock anyone do ya?


In the words of the great Carl Marx, "from those according to their
ability and to each according to their needs".
--

Cheers,

John B.


Cute.


No. History.
--

Cheers,

John B.
  #89  
Old August 28th 19, 12:49 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,546
Default Chinese Carbon Wheelset

Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 11:19:10 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/27/2019 1:09 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 9:03:30 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/27/2019 10:29 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, August 26, 2019 at 7:39:30 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/26/2019 7:46 PM, Duane wrote:

You don’t create markets by convincing consumers to need what you want to
sell. Don’t you think it’s possible the suppliers are responding to the
market demand?

That's extremely naive.

Look at SUVs and pickup trucks as an example. Our area just took a
massive economic hit because GM closed the Lordstown plant where the
well-regarded Chevy Cruze was built. Their explanation? Cruze sales were
dropping, SUVs were rising.

But a local investigative reporter dug into the decision. It turns out
it was made back when Cruze sales were at their peak and rising. GM
turned down all advertising for the Cruze and turned up all advertising
for SUVs, specifically because profit per unit is much higher for SUVs.
And by golly, people bought more and more SUVs and fewer Cruzes.

It's naive to think advertising and promotion don't work. If advertising
didn't change market demand, advertising wouldn't be the massive,
massive effort it is.

What product have you purchased because of an advertisement? I almost
bought a Taco Bell taco because I liked the talking Chihuahua -- but I lost interest.

Yes, the market determines our choices, and the market wants to make
money -- and it wants us to chose new options, etc., etc. Bad
market! On the other hand, it did produce flush toilets, smart
phones, STI and all sorts of things I use every day and appreciate. Good market!

But you can market 'til the cows come home, and I'm not going to buy
an F350, and I certainly don't miss the Chevy Cruze or Chevy
anything. I haven't bought any bike item because of marketing. I was
looking for road discs when they were hard to find. Some things I got
because my cohorts were gushing about it. Some things I got OE
because I bought a complete bike. That's where you get corralled --
buying complete bikes, but that isn't marketing as much as "here it
is, take it or leave it."

This also leaves out lust items and objects of art like custom steel
frames. Those purchases defy marketing and are more like opioids and
opioid receptor issues. I can't tell you why I lusted after a
California Masi or an early Bruce Gordon.

I'd have a very hard time thinking of something _I_ bought because of
advertising, but that's not a fair test. I'm famously unfashionable
among those who know me, I'm not a TV watcher so I see few ads and mute
those that happen to be on, I do no recreational shopping, and I've
always been an ad skeptic.

I'm glad you won't buy an F350. But you can't seriously think that's the
most appropriate vehicle for the majority of people who buy them. Ditto
Cadillac Escalades, Jeeps of any flavor, and four wheel drive SUVs in
general. (And Andrew will probably say folks should buy what they like.
But the point is, they are told what to like.)

Getting back to bikes, the latest mini-craze in our bike club is disc
brakes and gravel bikes. Number of club incidences of caliper brake
problems: Zero. Number of club rides that venture onto gravel roads:
Zero. But like whatever the latest number of rear cogs, and whatever
this week's fashion for front chainrings (or chainring, singular) there
are people that just gotta have it.

According to this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising_industry
there's $167 billion annually betting that advertising works. It doesn't
work on everybody, but if it didn't work well enough, they wouldn't
spend all that money.

Again, you should be gushing about gravel bikes. They're just carbon
fiber or aluminum touring bikes from 1973 -- with discs and better
gearing -- and stiffer BBs, better steering and generally lighter. Oh,
and they can take larger tires -- a lot larger. And different sized
wheels if that matters. You really should get one.


If I ran my touring bike into a garage roof, I suppose I might look at a
gravel bike. I do think they're a better choice for a lot of cyclists
who currently run 23mm racing tires on bikes that can't fit 25mm or
28mm. (I do take my bike onto gravel pretty regularly for short
distances, and it works fine.)

But my point remains: Why did people ever buy the bikes limited to 25mm?
Because they were stylish and promoted.

Why are people buying gravel bikes now? In most cases, it's not because
the customers have thought about their real needs and decided that
design best satisfies them. They're buying them because they're stylish
and promoted.


--
- Frank Krygowski


Today very few bikes are limited to narrow tires. And none of the older
steel bikes were. I just pulled 18 mm tires off of my youngest daughter's
Bridgestone Synergy and 23's fit on it easily and if she wasn't so light
I could easily put 25's on there. I could put 28's on my Colnago. Perhaps
there was a short period in which bikes were limited to 23's or less but
that didn't last long.


I don’t know of any road bikes that can’t take 25s these days. My Tarmac
can but I run 23s. Won’t take 28s though.

The new trend is wider tires actually. A friend just bought a Trek madone
with disc brakes and 32s. Seems like options abound.

--
duane
  #90  
Old August 28th 19, 12:49 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,546
Default Chinese Carbon Wheelset

John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 09:57:36 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 01:29:00 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 11:52:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 8/26/2019 1:24 AM, James wrote:
On 26/8/19 1:48 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/24/2019 9:58 PM, James wrote:
On 25/8/19 7:36 am, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 2:18:05 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 25/8/19 5:18 am, Tom Kunich wrote:


I have never used "carbon paste" for anything and can't
imagine why.


Imagine harder.

-- JS

Why? I have had CF frames for a long time. I've never even SEEN
"carbon paste" let alone used it for anything.



Because you complained about a CF seat post slipping.* You wrote:

"In one point it again made that noise and it appears that it was
the seat post moving. Think that I'll throw away that Campy Carbon
*seatpost and install an aluminum one."

So Tom is a case in point. He's got to be more mechanically competent
*than most recreational cyclists. He's got decades of experience. But
*even he doesn't know that carbon paste is recommended for many part
*interfaces.

I think there must be tens of thousands of newbies who will know less
*than that, and will over-torque or otherwise damage lightweight CF
parts, especially as CF gets less expensive and more common.



To be fair, it is easy to over torque many fasteners on a modern bicycle
that have no CF involved.

Most A head stems, for example, are aluminium and spec'ed for ~7 Nm.
Easy when you own a reasonable torque wrench designed for that low
torque range, and easy to strip for those with fists of ham.

And it's been easy to over torque stuff and damage parts for
generations.* All cranks for square taper BBs for example.* If you
properly grease the axle and nut or bolt, it is easy to pull a crank on
too far by over torquing the fastener.

Heck, if you over tighten spoke nipples you'll pull a nipple through an
aluminium rim sooner or later, or damage a hub or break spokes!

That's true, but the examples you gave pertain mostly to either
lightweight equipment or equipment (cranks, spokes) that the casual
cyclist doesn't typically deal with.

Casual cyclists are the ones who are least likely to have torque
wrenches, or to bother reading manuals for torque specs. Those people
are most likely to adjust just a few things: Saddle height and tilt,
stem height, handlebar tilt, and left-to-right handlebar straightness.
Those can and should be designed to withstand ham-fisted newbie
mechanics, and to not require exotic elixers that ordinary homeowners
have never heard of.

Maybe this could be a compromise: Make every bike in two models. One
model would withstand the hacking of a typical garage mechanic. The
other model would require a torque table and torque wrench. But the
delicate model would come with bright red or bright yellow "DELICATE!"
labels permanently fastened at every vulnerable joint. And somewhere on
the frame, another bright yellow label saying "This DELICATE model is
124 grams [or whatever] lighter than its stronger mate."

A great idea. Then of course, I can print up some labels saying "125
grams lighter" for those that want to be just that little bit better
:-)
--
But you guys don’t mock anyone do ya?


In the words of the great Carl Marx, "from those according to their
ability and to each according to their needs".
--

Cheers,

John B.


Cute.


No. History.
--

Cheers,

John B.


No, I meant you. Not Marx.

Who gets to define “needs”?

--
duane
 




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