A Cycling & bikes forum. CycleBanter.com

Go Back   Home » CycleBanter.com forum » rec.bicycles » Techniques
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Power Meters



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old June 13th 21, 08:35 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,196
Default Power Meters

We sort of had an argument about the use of these things on this site a year or so ago. As it turned out, some of the people saw a great usefulness for these devices while the rest wondered what possible use they could have.

I think that the people who thought that they were very useful were those people who had never used them before. As it turned out those who bought and used them for a while (from the looks of it only a couple of weeks) discovered to their dismay that they really didn't have a great usefulness and Craigslist is covered with them. I think that there are still people convince of their usefulness "IF ONLY THEY WERE MORE ACCURATE" and that they are selling the $500 models so they can afford a $1,200 model. But most of the people saw that the information imparted doesn't even add much to professional racers who actually do not need to have a device to inform them of their form when they can clearly feel in on a long climb.

While there are still those who might think it useful I would like to know why you think it would be useful and what sort of knowledge do you think that it would impart that you could not detect simply through your legs without the extra weight of $500 in your wallet?
Ads
  #2  
Old June 13th 21, 08:58 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Power Meters

On Sunday, June 13, 2021 at 12:35:29 PM UTC-7, wrote:
We sort of had an argument about the use of these things on this site a year or so ago. As it turned out, some of the people saw a great usefulness for these devices while the rest wondered what possible use they could have..

I think that the people who thought that they were very useful were those people who had never used them before. As it turned out those who bought and used them for a while (from the looks of it only a couple of weeks) discovered to their dismay that they really didn't have a great usefulness and Craigslist is covered with them. I think that there are still people convince of their usefulness "IF ONLY THEY WERE MORE ACCURATE" and that they are selling the $500 models so they can afford a $1,200 model. But most of the people saw that the information imparted doesn't even add much to professional racers who actually do not need to have a device to inform them of their form when they can clearly feel in on a long climb.

While there are still those who might think it useful I would like to know why you think it would be useful and what sort of knowledge do you think that it would impart that you could not detect simply through your legs without the extra weight of $500 in your wallet?


This is kind of odd coming from someone who is always spouting off about calculated power output, speed and distance. Your calculated power numbers are typically off by a factor of two, so you should get a real power meter and get a more accurate measurement or your power output. Get a Stages. Its the best. Help support the Portland and Boulder, Co. economies. Then you can tell whether one bike is really faster than another or if it is jus a placebo effect. Watch power, speed and the five-billion metrics Garmin will give you from the data spewed by your crank arm.

-- Jay Beattie.


  #3  
Old June 14th 21, 12:10 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,196
Default Power Meters

On Sunday, June 13, 2021 at 12:58:16 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, June 13, 2021 at 12:35:29 PM UTC-7, wrote:
We sort of had an argument about the use of these things on this site a year or so ago. As it turned out, some of the people saw a great usefulness for these devices while the rest wondered what possible use they could have.

I think that the people who thought that they were very useful were those people who had never used them before. As it turned out those who bought and used them for a while (from the looks of it only a couple of weeks) discovered to their dismay that they really didn't have a great usefulness and Craigslist is covered with them. I think that there are still people convince of their usefulness "IF ONLY THEY WERE MORE ACCURATE" and that they are selling the $500 models so they can afford a $1,200 model. But most of the people saw that the information imparted doesn't even add much to professional racers who actually do not need to have a device to inform them of their form when they can clearly feel in on a long climb.

While there are still those who might think it useful I would like to know why you think it would be useful and what sort of knowledge do you think that it would impart that you could not detect simply through your legs without the extra weight of $500 in your wallet?

This is kind of odd coming from someone who is always spouting off about calculated power output, speed and distance. Your calculated power numbers are typically off by a factor of two, so you should get a real power meter and get a more accurate measurement or your power output. Get a Stages. Its the best. Help support the Portland and Boulder, Co. economies. Then you can tell whether one bike is really faster than another or if it is jus a placebo effect. Watch power, speed and the five-billion metrics Garmin will give you from the data spewed by your crank arm.

I am satisfied with the numbers I get from the Garmin Edge. If that isn't accurate enough for you that's just too bad.
  #4  
Old June 14th 21, 11:08 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Rolf Mantel[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 267
Default Power Meters

Am 13.06.2021 um 21:35 schrieb Tom Kunich:

While there are still those who might think it useful I would like to
know why you think it would be useful and what sort of knowledge do
you think that it would impart that you could not detect simply
through your legs without the extra weight of $500 in your wallet?


I'd take a power meter for $100 or so, in the hope that I can see more
easily whether I'm slower than usual

a) due to a bad night's sleep (power low)
b) due to external factors (power normal)

As of today, I can tell easily whether I'm slow due to the wind (speed
difference after the 90 degree bends) but issues like "far too low tire
pressure" and "chain is in desparate need of oil" I only notice
indirectly (Monday after servicing the bike I'm significantly faster
than Friday before servicing the bike).

If the power meter is sufficiently exact, I'd use it to still my
scientific curiosity comparing the wind resistence with various setups
(on the drops vs on the hoods vs recumbent bike, one very full pannier
vs two half-filled panniers etc).

Similary, once in my life I bought a heart rate monitor for cycling
which confirmed that my "feeling good" was a close enough measurement,
and after a few years of bike computers with cadence sensor I'm now
happy with mobile phone GPS without cadence sensor.

Rolf

  #5  
Old June 14th 21, 03:03 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,196
Default Power Meters

On Monday, June 14, 2021 at 3:08:25 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 13.06.2021 um 21:35 schrieb Tom Kunich:

While there are still those who might think it useful I would like to
know why you think it would be useful and what sort of knowledge do
you think that it would impart that you could not detect simply
through your legs without the extra weight of $500 in your wallet?

I'd take a power meter for $100 or so, in the hope that I can see more
easily whether I'm slower than usual

a) due to a bad night's sleep (power low)
b) due to external factors (power normal)

As of today, I can tell easily whether I'm slow due to the wind (speed
difference after the 90 degree bends) but issues like "far too low tire
pressure" and "chain is in desparate need of oil" I only notice
indirectly (Monday after servicing the bike I'm significantly faster
than Friday before servicing the bike).

If the power meter is sufficiently exact, I'd use it to still my
scientific curiosity comparing the wind resistence with various setups
(on the drops vs on the hoods vs recumbent bike, one very full pannier
vs two half-filled panniers etc).

Similary, once in my life I bought a heart rate monitor for cycling
which confirmed that my "feeling good" was a close enough measurement,
and after a few years of bike computers with cadence sensor I'm now
happy with mobile phone GPS without cadence sensor.


I had a power meter that used wind speed so that you got an actual work number. Then there was a program that entered your frontal area and weight and would give you a power output. I would expect that it didn't correct for climbing but I normally used it on flat rides. The knowledge it imparted was so minimal that the Garmin return of Calories burned is probably just as well.
  #6  
Old June 14th 21, 03:27 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James Carrington
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Power Meters

On Monday, June 14, 2021 at 6:08:25 AM UTC-4, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 13.06.2021 um 21:35 schrieb Tom Kunich:

While there are still those who might think it useful I would like to
know why you think it would be useful and what sort of knowledge do
you think that it would impart that you could not detect simply
through your legs without the extra weight of $500 in your wallet?

I'd take a power meter for $100 or so, in the hope that I can see more
easily whether I'm slower than usual

a) due to a bad night's sleep (power low)
b) due to external factors (power normal)

As of today, I can tell easily whether I'm slow due to the wind (speed
difference after the 90 degree bends) but issues like "far too low tire
pressure" and "chain is in desparate need of oil" I only notice
indirectly (Monday after servicing the bike I'm significantly faster
than Friday before servicing the bike).

If the power meter is sufficiently exact, I'd use it to still my
scientific curiosity comparing the wind resistence with various setups
(on the drops vs on the hoods vs recumbent bike, one very full pannier
vs two half-filled panniers etc).

Similary, once in my life I bought a heart rate monitor for cycling
which confirmed that my "feeling good" was a close enough measurement,
and after a few years of bike computers with cadence sensor I'm now
happy with mobile phone GPS without cadence sensor.

Rolf


Power meters are incredibly useful as a metric for fitness and for targeted training. However, if you aren't a competitive cyclist it isn't of much more use than any other electronic gizmo. Since I am a competitive cyclist, I rely on one rather heavily for training. That said, my use of a power meter is exclusively indoor, since external variables like weather, terrain, and traffic often conspire to thwart outdoor efforts. Being in the sport competitively for over 30 years, I have a reasonably good sense of RPE. Besides that, while racing your power numbers are largely irrelevant. If you can go with an attack, you go. Watching a power number is no more than a distraction at that point. It's not uncommon to see riders both pro and amateur put a piece of electrical tape over a power display when racing. Sure, you can analyze the data after and figure out 'gee, no wonder I got dropped', or 'I really shouldn't have been dropped'. As Rolf points out, the data can tell you a lot about your level of fitness, either generally or if you're over-trained. As far as I can tell, there is no one in this forum (aside from me) who would use a power meter for its designed purpose.


  #7  
Old June 14th 21, 04:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Power Meters

On Monday, June 14, 2021 at 7:27:35 AM UTC-7, James Carrington wrote:
On Monday, June 14, 2021 at 6:08:25 AM UTC-4, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 13.06.2021 um 21:35 schrieb Tom Kunich:

While there are still those who might think it useful I would like to
know why you think it would be useful and what sort of knowledge do
you think that it would impart that you could not detect simply
through your legs without the extra weight of $500 in your wallet?

I'd take a power meter for $100 or so, in the hope that I can see more
easily whether I'm slower than usual

a) due to a bad night's sleep (power low)
b) due to external factors (power normal)

As of today, I can tell easily whether I'm slow due to the wind (speed
difference after the 90 degree bends) but issues like "far too low tire
pressure" and "chain is in desparate need of oil" I only notice
indirectly (Monday after servicing the bike I'm significantly faster
than Friday before servicing the bike).

If the power meter is sufficiently exact, I'd use it to still my
scientific curiosity comparing the wind resistence with various setups
(on the drops vs on the hoods vs recumbent bike, one very full pannier
vs two half-filled panniers etc).

Similary, once in my life I bought a heart rate monitor for cycling
which confirmed that my "feeling good" was a close enough measurement,
and after a few years of bike computers with cadence sensor I'm now
happy with mobile phone GPS without cadence sensor.

Rolf

Power meters are incredibly useful as a metric for fitness and for targeted training. However, if you aren't a competitive cyclist it isn't of much more use than any other electronic gizmo. Since I am a competitive cyclist, I rely on one rather heavily for training. That said, my use of a power meter is exclusively indoor, since external variables like weather, terrain, and traffic often conspire to thwart outdoor efforts. Being in the sport competitively for over 30 years, I have a reasonably good sense of RPE. Besides that, while racing your power numbers are largely irrelevant. If you can go with an attack, you go. Watching a power number is no more than a distraction at that point. It's not uncommon to see riders both pro and amateur put a piece of electrical tape over a power display when racing. Sure, you can analyze the data after and figure out 'gee, no wonder I got dropped', or 'I really shouldn't have been dropped'. As Rolf points out, the data can tell you a lot about your level of fitness, either generally or if you're over-trained. As far as I can tell, there is no one in this forum (aside from me) who would use a power meter for its designed purpose.


I'm surprised you only use yours for indoor efforts. Even with weather, terrain, etc., measuring power allows you to maintain consistent effort, particularly climbing and in headwinds. And can't pros and amateurs set their screens to not display power? That would seem like a better option than using electrical tape. Personally, I just wouldn't look -- but then again, I don't have a power meter.

IME, people purchased power meters for all sorts of reasons -- from just wanting a gizmo, to serious training to cardiac rehab (or other rehab like leg imbalance). It's just a measuring device, and one can use measurements for lots of reasons. I think its a bad value proposition as a gizmo, but that's just me. Fundamentally, though, EVERYONE should buy a Stages power meter to keep the Portland/Boulder economies strong.

My son worked for Stages and had/has lots of power meters, and I always thought it was fun getting sprint numbers or numbers from parts of our rides or our morning commute (the commute could be like an ad hoc criterium). https://bikeportland.org/2017/12/19/...the-u-s-261628 That was entertainment enough for me, and I passed on getting a meter -- but who knows, if I'm offered a pro contract next year, I may reconsider.

-- Jay Beattie.



  #8  
Old June 14th 21, 05:30 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Power Meters

On 6/14/2021 11:47 AM, jbeattie wrote:

On Monday, June 14, 2021 at 7:27:35 AM UTC-7, James Carrington wrote:

On Monday, June 14, 2021 at 6:08:25 AM UTC-4, Rolf Mantel wrote:

Am 13.06.2021 um 21:35 schrieb Tom Kunich:

While there are still those who might think it useful I would like to
know why you think it would be useful and what sort of knowledge do
you think that it would impart that you could not detect simply
through your legs without the extra weight of $500 in your wallet?
I'd take a power meter for $100 or so, in the hope that I can see more
easily whether I'm slower than usual

a) due to a bad night's sleep (power low)
b) due to external factors (power normal)

As of today, I can tell easily whether I'm slow due to the wind (speed
difference after the 90 degree bends) but issues like "far too low tire
pressure" and "chain is in desparate need of oil" I only notice
indirectly (Monday after servicing the bike I'm significantly faster
than Friday before servicing the bike).

If the power meter is sufficiently exact, I'd use it to still my
scientific curiosity comparing the wind resistence with various setups
(on the drops vs on the hoods vs recumbent bike, one very full pannier
vs two half-filled panniers etc).

Similary, once in my life I bought a heart rate monitor for cycling
which confirmed that my "feeling good" was a close enough measurement,
and after a few years of bike computers with cadence sensor I'm now
happy with mobile phone GPS without cadence sensor.

Rolf

Power meters are incredibly useful as a metric for fitness and for targeted training. However, if you aren't a competitive cyclist it isn't of much more use than any other electronic gizmo. Since I am a competitive cyclist, I rely on one rather heavily for training. That said, my use of a power meter is exclusively indoor, since external variables like weather, terrain, and traffic often conspire to thwart outdoor efforts. Being in the sport competitively for over 30 years, I have a reasonably good sense of RPE. Besides that, while racing your power numbers are largely irrelevant. If you can go with an attack, you go. Watching a power number is no more than a distraction at that point. It's not uncommon to see riders both pro and amateur put a piece of electrical tape over a power display when racing. Sure, you can analyze the data after and figure out 'gee, no wonder I got dropped', or 'I really shouldn't have been dropped'. As Rolf points out, the data can tell you a lot about your level of fitness, either generally or if you're over-trained. As far as I can tell, there is no one in this forum (aside from me) who would use a power meter for its designed purpose.


I'm surprised you only use yours for indoor efforts. Even with weather, terrain, etc., measuring power allows you to maintain consistent effort, particularly climbing and in headwinds. And can't pros and amateurs set their screens to not display power? That would seem like a better option than using electrical tape. Personally, I just wouldn't look -- but then again, I don't have a power meter.

IME, people purchased power meters for all sorts of reasons -- from just wanting a gizmo, to serious training to cardiac rehab (or other rehab like leg imbalance). It's just a measuring device, and one can use measurements for lots of reasons. I think its a bad value proposition as a gizmo, but that's just me.


Not surprisingly, I agree. At my age, measuring power would be silly and
depressing. But through most of my cycling life it would have been
redundant. I never had time to "train" in any disciplined way. My
"training" was to ride home from work as fast as possible, at least on
days I caught the first few traffic lights green.

But ISTM one type of racer could make good use of a power meter: A time
trialist. The time trials our club used to put on were on rolling
terrain. I was always concerned about how fast to go out, to make sure I
wouldn't blow up on the final climb. Some trial and error with a power
meter would have been useful for gauging effort.

--

Anecdote: The only time I recall getting a power measurement was when
the university's Exercise Science department offered a bunch of free
testing to faculty members. As a young faculty member, I jumped at the
chance. When I got the printout, it claimed I peaked very close to 2000
Watts.

I was pretty astonished, but didn't know how to interpret that number.
Since then, after learning a lot more about human power, I realized that
had to be metabolic power consumed, not output. I think I need to
multiply by my metabolic efficiency. But if (back in that day) it was
25% or so, it still gives a respectable number.

But then, the older I get, the faster I was.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #9  
Old June 14th 21, 07:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,196
Default Power Meters

On Monday, June 14, 2021 at 7:27:35 AM UTC-7, James Carrington wrote:
On Monday, June 14, 2021 at 6:08:25 AM UTC-4, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 13.06.2021 um 21:35 schrieb Tom Kunich:

While there are still those who might think it useful I would like to
know why you think it would be useful and what sort of knowledge do
you think that it would impart that you could not detect simply
through your legs without the extra weight of $500 in your wallet?

I'd take a power meter for $100 or so, in the hope that I can see more
easily whether I'm slower than usual

a) due to a bad night's sleep (power low)
b) due to external factors (power normal)

As of today, I can tell easily whether I'm slow due to the wind (speed
difference after the 90 degree bends) but issues like "far too low tire
pressure" and "chain is in desparate need of oil" I only notice
indirectly (Monday after servicing the bike I'm significantly faster
than Friday before servicing the bike).

If the power meter is sufficiently exact, I'd use it to still my
scientific curiosity comparing the wind resistence with various setups
(on the drops vs on the hoods vs recumbent bike, one very full pannier
vs two half-filled panniers etc).

Similary, once in my life I bought a heart rate monitor for cycling
which confirmed that my "feeling good" was a close enough measurement,
and after a few years of bike computers with cadence sensor I'm now
happy with mobile phone GPS without cadence sensor.

Rolf

Power meters are incredibly useful as a metric for fitness and for targeted training. However, if you aren't a competitive cyclist it isn't of much more use than any other electronic gizmo. Since I am a competitive cyclist, I rely on one rather heavily for training. That said, my use of a power meter is exclusively indoor, since external variables like weather, terrain, and traffic often conspire to thwart outdoor efforts. Being in the sport competitively for over 30 years, I have a reasonably good sense of RPE. Besides that, while racing your power numbers are largely irrelevant. If you can go with an attack, you go. Watching a power number is no more than a distraction at that point. It's not uncommon to see riders both pro and amateur put a piece of electrical tape over a power display when racing. Sure, you can analyze the data after and figure out 'gee, no wonder I got dropped', or 'I really shouldn't have been dropped'. As Rolf points out, the data can tell you a lot about your level of fitness, either generally or if you're over-trained. As far as I can tell, there is no one in this forum (aside from me) who would use a power meter for its designed purpose.

James, this is pretty much what I've said, though I would add that power meters only tell you where you are in your fitness since you couldn't even be a pro or advanced racing amateur if you already didn't have the ability. So you really can't improve on your ability but tell how much you've lost over the winter. In a race in the heat of competition for a pro they are useful to stop you from over-riding your ability not that that seems to have stopped anyone as we've just seen in the Tour of Switzerland. I've never seen such block head moves in my life. How do you ride off from your team leader? How do you start a sprint from a km out?
  #10  
Old June 14th 21, 07:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,196
Default Power Meters

On Monday, June 14, 2021 at 9:30:34 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/14/2021 11:47 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 14, 2021 at 7:27:35 AM UTC-7, James Carrington wrote:
On Monday, June 14, 2021 at 6:08:25 AM UTC-4, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 13.06.2021 um 21:35 schrieb Tom Kunich:

While there are still those who might think it useful I would like to
know why you think it would be useful and what sort of knowledge do
you think that it would impart that you could not detect simply
through your legs without the extra weight of $500 in your wallet?
I'd take a power meter for $100 or so, in the hope that I can see more
easily whether I'm slower than usual

a) due to a bad night's sleep (power low)
b) due to external factors (power normal)

As of today, I can tell easily whether I'm slow due to the wind (speed
difference after the 90 degree bends) but issues like "far too low tire
pressure" and "chain is in desparate need of oil" I only notice
indirectly (Monday after servicing the bike I'm significantly faster
than Friday before servicing the bike).

If the power meter is sufficiently exact, I'd use it to still my
scientific curiosity comparing the wind resistence with various setups
(on the drops vs on the hoods vs recumbent bike, one very full pannier
vs two half-filled panniers etc).

Similary, once in my life I bought a heart rate monitor for cycling
which confirmed that my "feeling good" was a close enough measurement,
and after a few years of bike computers with cadence sensor I'm now
happy with mobile phone GPS without cadence sensor.

Rolf
Power meters are incredibly useful as a metric for fitness and for targeted training. However, if you aren't a competitive cyclist it isn't of much more use than any other electronic gizmo. Since I am a competitive cyclist, I rely on one rather heavily for training. That said, my use of a power meter is exclusively indoor, since external variables like weather, terrain, and traffic often conspire to thwart outdoor efforts. Being in the sport competitively for over 30 years, I have a reasonably good sense of RPE. Besides that, while racing your power numbers are largely irrelevant. If you can go with an attack, you go. Watching a power number is no more than a distraction at that point. It's not uncommon to see riders both pro and amateur put a piece of electrical tape over a power display when racing. Sure, you can analyze the data after and figure out 'gee, no wonder I got dropped', or 'I really shouldn't have been dropped'. As Rolf points out, the data can tell you a lot about your level of fitness, either generally or if you're over-trained. As far as I can tell, there is no one in this forum (aside from me) who would use a power meter for its designed purpose.


I'm surprised you only use yours for indoor efforts. Even with weather, terrain, etc., measuring power allows you to maintain consistent effort, particularly climbing and in headwinds. And can't pros and amateurs set their screens to not display power? That would seem like a better option than using electrical tape. Personally, I just wouldn't look -- but then again, I don't have a power meter.

IME, people purchased power meters for all sorts of reasons -- from just wanting a gizmo, to serious training to cardiac rehab (or other rehab like leg imbalance). It's just a measuring device, and one can use measurements for lots of reasons. I think its a bad value proposition as a gizmo, but that's just me.

Not surprisingly, I agree. At my age, measuring power would be silly and
depressing. But through most of my cycling life it would have been
redundant. I never had time to "train" in any disciplined way. My
"training" was to ride home from work as fast as possible, at least on
days I caught the first few traffic lights green.

But ISTM one type of racer could make good use of a power meter: A time
trialist. The time trials our club used to put on were on rolling
terrain. I was always concerned about how fast to go out, to make sure I
wouldn't blow up on the final climb. Some trial and error with a power
meter would have been useful for gauging effort.

--

Anecdote: The only time I recall getting a power measurement was when
the university's Exercise Science department offered a bunch of free
testing to faculty members. As a young faculty member, I jumped at the
chance. When I got the printout, it claimed I peaked very close to 2000
Watts.

I was pretty astonished, but didn't know how to interpret that number.
Since then, after learning a lot more about human power, I realized that
had to be metabolic power consumed, not output. I think I need to
multiply by my metabolic efficiency. But if (back in that day) it was
25% or so, it still gives a respectable number.

But then, the older I get, the faster I was.


Most Cat 1's and 2's can sprint at 1800 watts or so, so those number probably were fairly accurate.
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Power Meters? Mark cleary Techniques 151 May 11th 21 05:03 PM
How accurate are power meters? James[_8_] Techniques 64 December 31st 13 11:39 PM
Power meters jump the shark [email protected] Racing 15 December 19th 07 07:55 PM
Fork rake and power meters [email protected] Techniques 1 February 5th 05 05:37 AM
Western Power Power House Rd who is a Janitor at the Muja Power Station in Australia. why is Marty Wallace [email protected]­net.au calling people and post­ing at 3:05am Marty Wallace J­an 29, 3:05 am because he can'­t do it with the hooker that y­ou hear in [email protected] Racing 1 January 30th 05 08:30 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:25 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2022 CycleBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.