Negative Racing - How to break it?

Dumbasses,

I know talking about racing here is crazy but there isn't anything to
talk about in RBR until Saturday when the tour (TIOOYK) starts so what
the heck...

After a 30 year layoff I decided to return to amateur racing in the
US. My wife got sucked onto a local women's team last season and liked
it so I figured I'd go tot he races with her this year. If I'm going
to waste time I might as well also waste skin so I sent in my $60 and
got a license.

I had raced juniors 25 years ago and was decent. I didn't want to come
in as a 5 so I talked to our coordinator and asked if I could come in
as a 3 or at least a 4 so I could do age group stuff. No problem, they
gave me the cat 4 and have done 10 mass starts and 3 TTs. Some cat 4
only fields, mostly cat 3/4 mixed races and a couple 35+.

I have no problem finising with the bunch in the 3/4 and 4 races and
usually do fine in the 35+ unless it's crazy fast (still getting used
to the corner sprints in circuit races). In the former races I can get
to the front easily and be in position to contest the sprints.
However, bike position is only half the battle. Since I sprint like a
10 year old girl I'm looking at top tens but can't finish it off.
Don't really care about the win since this is a hobby and supposed to
be fun. However, racing is about winning and trying to get there
serves to set up the discussion.

In the 3/4s here in Mid Atlantic region there are a couple larger
teams that dominate the entry list. For example, in the men's cat 4
race this weekend we had 6-8 guys from two different teams and 4-6
guys from two other teams. Field size was around 65 or so. I'm racing
solo as my club is a cat 3 focused team so unless it's a mixed 3/4 or
age group race I am on my own.

Without a good sprint my best chances for an overall win are to get
off the front. However, I'm not strong enough to hold off the field
solo and the welder's union tends to rule in lower cat racing. I'd say
in the cat 4s there are typically 10-15 guys that are all about the
same strength and another 10-15 that can hold the wheel but can't pull
when it gets fast.

Tactically I see a couple options:

1) Attack and if I don't bring someone from the larger team along sit
up quickly and try again later. I did this four times in the RR
saturday without luck. Guys would get on my wheel but wouldn't, or
couldn't pull through with any power. If I went with someone else and
pulled through then they couldn't take their turn (which makes you
wonder why they jumoed at all). This all adds up to nice interval work
for me but zero change in race outcome which came down to a pack
sprint.

2) Try to combine with some other guys without teammates. Realize the
larger teams will eventually chase and there is nobody to block for
us. However, it is lower cat racing so a few strong guys could
potentially hold off the field.

3) Accept that 99% of these races will be field sprints so just sit
in, conserve energy and try to use age and craftiness to beat youth
and enthusiasm. The problem with this is that the kids have an
advantage of healing faster and are generally quite stupid in field
sprints.

4) Change teams, form an unholy alliance, EPO, HGH, train more, etc,
etc, etc.

5) Suck it up and upgrade to the 3s where my teammates are. I can do
this abut won't have enough points until next season. Cat 2 racing is
unlikely. I train with some decent 2s and I'm not strong enough to
race with them. Damn parents and their crappy chromosomes...
Regardless, the truth is that while I can hang with the cat 3 fields I
will only be hanging in the pack in he faster races and won't be
competitive for the top placings.

So tactical geniuses that inhabit RBR, any other bright ideas for how
to make these cat 4 and 3/4 races more interesting and give myself a
better shot at the overall win?

Note that as an RBR reader for the last ~18 years, while I'm looking
forward to the standard: "lower cat amateur racing is stupid so give
up altogether" comments please try to make them really funny.

Thanks,

Mark

On Jun 30, 6:42*am, wrote:
Dumbasses,

I know talking about racing here is crazy but there isn't anything to
talk about in RBR until Saturday when the tour (TIOOYK) starts so what
the heck...

After a 30 year layoff I decided to return to amateur racing in the
US. My wife got sucked onto a local women's team last season and liked
it so I figured I'd go tot he races with her this year. If I'm going
to waste time I might as well also waste skin so I sent in my $60 and
got a license.

I had raced juniors 25 years ago and was decent. I didn't want to come
in as a 5 so I talked to our coordinator and asked if I could come in
as a 3 or at least a 4 so I could do age group stuff. No problem, they
gave me the cat 4 and have done 10 mass starts and 3 TTs. Some cat 4
only fields, mostly cat 3/4 mixed races and a couple 35+.

I have no problem finising with the bunch in the 3/4 and 4 races and
usually do fine in the 35+ unless it's crazy fast (still getting used
to the corner sprints in circuit races). In the former races I can get
to the front easily and be in *position to contest the sprints.
However, bike position is only half the battle. Since I sprint like a
10 year old girl I'm looking at top tens but can't finish it off.
Don't really care about the win since this is a hobby and supposed to
be fun. However, racing is about winning and trying to get there
serves to set up the discussion.

In the 3/4s here in Mid Atlantic region there are a couple larger
teams that dominate the entry list. For example, in the men's cat 4
race this weekend we had 6-8 guys from two different teams and 4-6
guys from two other teams. Field size was around 65 or so. I'm racing
solo as my club is a cat 3 focused team so unless it's a mixed 3/4 or
age group race I am on my own.

Without a good sprint my best chances for an overall win are to get
off the front. However, I'm not strong enough to hold off the field
solo and the welder's union tends to rule in lower cat racing. I'd say
in the cat 4s there are typically 10-15 guys that are all about the
same strength and another 10-15 that can hold the wheel but can't pull
when it gets fast.

Tactically I see a couple options:

1) Attack and if I don't bring someone from the larger team along sit
up quickly and try again later. I did this four times in the RR
saturday without luck. Guys would get on my wheel but wouldn't, or
couldn't pull through with any power. If I went with someone else and
pulled through then they couldn't take their turn (which makes you
wonder why they jumoed at all). This all adds up to nice interval work
for me but zero change in race outcome which came down to a pack
sprint.

2) Try to combine with some other guys without teammates. Realize the
larger teams will eventually chase and there is nobody to block for
us. However, it is lower cat racing so a few strong guys could
potentially hold off the field.

3) Accept that 99% of these races will be field sprints so just sit
in, conserve energy *and try to use age and craftiness to beat youth
and enthusiasm. The problem with this is that the kids have an
advantage of healing faster and are generally quite stupid in field
sprints.

4) Change teams, form an unholy alliance, EPO, HGH, train more, etc,
etc, etc.

5) Suck it up and upgrade to the 3s where my teammates are. I can do
this abut won't have enough points until next season. Cat 2 racing is
unlikely. I train with some decent 2s and I'm not strong enough to
race with them. Damn parents and their crappy chromosomes...
Regardless, the truth is that while I can hang with the cat 3 fields I
will only be hanging in the pack in he faster races and won't be
competitive for the top placings.

So tactical geniuses that inhabit RBR, any other bright ideas for how
to make these cat 4 and 3/4 races more interesting and give myself a
better shot at the overall win?

Note that as an RBR reader for the last ~18 years, while I'm looking
forward to the standard: "lower cat amateur racing is stupid so give
up altogether" comments please try to make them really funny.

Thanks,

Mark

Learn who the really competitive guys are in the fields you're racing
in, and make sure you get in any breakaway that they are in. The
beauty of being a solo racer is that if you're in a break with guys
who have teams, you can take advantage of their 'mates not chasing.
Some would even say you don't have a responsibility to do any work
within the break, but others would argue that's not true. Either way,
just pull through hard enough to 'look' like you're contributing but
don't blow yourself up with monster efforts. Hopefully you'll be
fresh enough at the end to contest the sprint. Worst case, you're the
last guy in the break, but before the pack at the finish.

On Jun 30, 6:42*am, wrote:
Dumbasses,

I know talking about racing here is crazy but there isn't anything to
talk about in RBR until Saturday when the tour (TIOOYK) starts so what
the heck...

After a 30 year layoff I decided to return to amateur racing in the
US. My wife got sucked onto a local women's team last season and liked
it so I figured I'd go tot he races with her this year. If I'm going
to waste time I might as well also waste skin so I sent in my $60 and
got a license.

I had raced juniors 25 years ago and was decent. I didn't want to come
in as a 5 so I talked to our coordinator and asked if I could come in
as a 3 or at least a 4 so I could do age group stuff. No problem, they
gave me the cat 4 and have done 10 mass starts and 3 TTs. Some cat 4
only fields, mostly cat 3/4 mixed races and a couple 35+.

I have no problem finising with the bunch in the 3/4 and 4 races and
usually do fine in the 35+ unless it's crazy fast (still getting used
to the corner sprints in circuit races). In the former races I can get
to the front easily and be in *position to contest the sprints.
However, bike position is only half the battle. Since I sprint like a
10 year old girl I'm looking at top tens but can't finish it off.
Don't really care about the win since this is a hobby and supposed to
be fun. However, racing is about winning and trying to get there
serves to set up the discussion.

In the 3/4s here in Mid Atlantic region there are a couple larger
teams that dominate the entry list. For example, in the men's cat 4
race this weekend we had 6-8 guys from two different teams and 4-6
guys from two other teams. Field size was around 65 or so. I'm racing
solo as my club is a cat 3 focused team so unless it's a mixed 3/4 or
age group race I am on my own.

Without a good sprint my best chances for an overall win are to get
off the front. However, I'm not strong enough to hold off the field
solo and the welder's union tends to rule in lower cat racing. I'd say
in the cat 4s there are typically 10-15 guys that are all about the
same strength and another 10-15 that can hold the wheel but can't pull
when it gets fast.

Tactically I see a couple options:

1) Attack and if I don't bring someone from the larger team along sit
up quickly and try again later. I did this four times in the RR
saturday without luck. Guys would get on my wheel but wouldn't, or
couldn't pull through with any power. If I went with someone else and
pulled through then they couldn't take their turn (which makes you
wonder why they jumoed at all). This all adds up to nice interval work
for me but zero change in race outcome which came down to a pack
sprint.

2) Try to combine with some other guys without teammates. Realize the
larger teams will eventually chase and there is nobody to block for
us. However, it is lower cat racing so a few strong guys could
potentially hold off the field.

3) Accept that 99% of these races will be field sprints so just sit
in, conserve energy *and try to use age and craftiness to beat youth
and enthusiasm. The problem with this is that the kids have an
advantage of healing faster and are generally quite stupid in field
sprints.

4) Change teams, form an unholy alliance, EPO, HGH, train more, etc,
etc, etc.

5) Suck it up and upgrade to the 3s where my teammates are. I can do
this abut won't have enough points until next season. Cat 2 racing is
unlikely. I train with some decent 2s and I'm not strong enough to
race with them. Damn parents and their crappy chromosomes...
Regardless, the truth is that while I can hang with the cat 3 fields I
will only be hanging in the pack in he faster races and won't be
competitive for the top placings.

So tactical geniuses that inhabit RBR, any other bright ideas for how
to make these cat 4 and 3/4 races more interesting and give myself a
better shot at the overall win?

Note that as an RBR reader for the last ~18 years, while I'm looking
forward to the standard: "lower cat amateur racing is stupid so give
up altogether" comments please try to make them really funny.

Thanks,

Mark

Mark,

Try this for a variation on strategy #1--- attack a lot, but not too
hard. Go 3/4 effort (but make it look like you're riding for all its
worth) for maybe 3-400 meters, knowing that the field will chase.
Recover a bit after they catch you, then do it again. And again. And
again. Don't worry if anyone tags along or not. In fact, its better
if they don't. Eventually the pack will get tired of chasing you,
thinking 'ah, hell, its just Mark off on his silly ass go-nowhere
attacks.' If you get the sense that they're not chasing, confirm it
by looking under your armpit so they don't see it. If you've gotten
more than 5-600 meters on 'em and they're not chasing, ramp up the
speed to what you can maintain solo for the rest of the race and
hopefully you'll be out of sight, out of mind before you know it.

A lot of the time you'll find pack dynamics are very strange, and
perhaps after you're out of sight they'll either forget you're there
or deliberately not chase since no one wants to do the work to bring
you back just so someone else can win the sprint. Sort of 'I'm not
chasing, you chase...'

I won my first ever race that way... and have used the technique to
success numerous times afterwards.

Scott

How often are breaks successful?

If the answer is 'rarely' and you are by yourself,
then it is time to work on speed. Pay attention to
the people that appear in the results a lot and
follow them.

Years ago I lived in a place where the Cat 3 answer
to the first question was 'rarely'. I guy I knew
devoted himself exclusively to speed work, and
successfully upgraded to Cat 2 using that strategy.
He was dog meat at the next level, but his upgrade
strategy worked.

I think it is asking a lot of any Cat 3 in this
country to race intelligently. Most don't. Things
would be different if that were not the case.

Bob Schwartz

On Jun 30, 11:58 am, Bob Schwartz

I think it is asking a lot of any Cat 3 in this
country to race intelligently. Most don't. Things
would be different if that were not the case.


dumbass,

it's not a question of intelligence, it's a question of fitness. at
the cat 3/4 level the pack can cruise at 40-42kph but not a lot of
riders have the ability to ride 40+kph for more than a 2-3 kms after
making an attack.

so most moves get maybe 10secs. up the road and die but any move that
gets 20 secs. or so is usually gone since there isn't enough
coordination or depth in the pack to mount an extended chase.

Amit Ghosh wrote:
On Jun 30, 11:58 am, Bob Schwartz

I think it is asking a lot of any Cat 3 in this
country to race intelligently. Most don't. Things
would be different if that were not the case.


dumbass,

it's not a question of intelligence, it's a question of fitness. at
the cat 3/4 level the pack can cruise at 40-42kph but not a lot of
riders have the ability to ride 40+kph for more than a 2-3 kms after
making an attack.

so most moves get maybe 10secs. up the road and die but any move that
gets 20 secs. or so is usually gone since there isn't enough
coordination or depth in the pack to mount an extended chase.

Back before aero gear lots of Cat 3/4 riders were posting 40+kph
times at state TT championships. I think you'd find lots of guys
at that level that could cruise at that speed.

After races you'll find a lot of them complementing teammates by
telling them hard they had to work to chase down their attack.

Bob Schwartz

On Jun 30, 11:13*am, Bob Schwartz
wrote:
Amit Ghosh wrote:
On Jun 30, 11:58 am, Bob Schwartz

I think it is asking a lot of any Cat 3 in this
country to race intelligently. Most don't. Things
would be different if that were not the case.

dumbass,

it's not a question of intelligence, it's a question of fitness. at
the cat 3/4 level the pack can cruise at 40-42kph but not a lot of
riders have the ability to ride 40+kph for more than a 2-3 kms after
making an attack.

so most moves get maybe 10secs. up the road and die but any move that
gets 20 secs. or so is usually gone since there isn't enough
coordination or depth in the pack to mount an extended chase.

Back before aero gear lots of Cat 3/4 riders were posting 40+kph
times at state TT championships. I think you'd find lots of guys
at that level that could cruise at that speed.

After races you'll find a lot of them complementing teammates by
telling them hard they had to work to chase down their attack.

Bob Schwartz

The problem in the 3's is that they are too homogenous. All of the
extraordinary talent moves on quickly to the 2's and there is no one
left that can put pressure on the race single handedly. If there is
someone very strong passing through the 3's make use of them. Follow
their attacks. If you have good speed, wait for their breaks to become
established and then bridge to them. Don't try to work on equal terms
with them but do what you can to keep the break active.

Regarding teamwork, the OP mentioned situations with two strong teams.
Pay careful attention to the balance of power between the two teams in
each break attempt. If both teams are satisfied with their
representation in the break, they won't chase and may even block for
it and the break has a decent chance of succeeding. Without the
balance, one of the strong teams will chase it down. Team rivalries
can get very intense and a lone rider can play off their tactics in
various ways.

Bret

On Jun 30, 7:42*am, wrote:

I had raced juniors 25 years ago and was decent.

At least you weren't indecent.

I didn't want to come
in as a 5 so I talked to our coordinator and asked if I could come in
as a 3 or at least a 4 so I could do age group stuff. No problem, they
gave me the cat 4 and have done 10 mass starts and 3 TTs. Some cat 4
only fields, mostly cat 3/4 mixed races and a couple 35+.

I have no problem finising with the bunch in the 3/4 and 4 races and
usually do fine in the 35+ unless it's crazy fast (still getting used
to the corner sprints in circuit races). In the former races I can get
to the front easily and be in *position to contest the sprints.
However, bike position is only half the battle. Since I sprint like a
10 year old girl I'm looking at top tens but can't finish it off.
Don't really care about the win since this is a hobby and supposed to
be fun.

But it's much more fun to win, of course. So let's be honest, the
'fun' rationalization really doesn't mean anything.

However, racing is about winning and trying to get there
serves to set up the discussion.

In the 3/4s here in Mid Atlantic region there are a couple larger
teams that dominate the entry list. For example, in the men's cat 4
race this weekend we had 6-8 guys from two different teams and 4-6
guys from two other teams. Field size was around 65 or so. I'm racing
solo as my club is a cat 3 focused team so unless it's a mixed 3/4 or
age group race I am on my own.

Without a good sprint my best chances for an overall win are to get
off the front. However, I'm not strong enough to hold off the field
solo and the welder's union tends to rule in lower cat racing. I'd say
in the cat 4s there are typically 10-15 guys that are all about the
same strength and another 10-15 that can hold the wheel but can't pull
when it gets fast.

Tactically I see a couple options:

(a bunch of junk snipped)

Dumbass -

There isn't really "negative" racing in the IVs; hell, there isn't
even team racing at that level. You're fooling yourself if you think
there is.

You actually have two options, not five.

1. Learn to sprint better.

2. Develop your motor so getting off the front and holding it work.

Do both. They will complement each other.

-rj

On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 05:42:15 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

3) Accept that 99% of these races will be field sprints so just sit
in, conserve energy and try to use age and craftiness to beat youth
and enthusiasm. The problem with this is that the kids have an
advantage of healing faster and are generally quite stupid in field
sprints.

Read this: http://spokepost.com/news/story/1216/

Also, is I find it hard to believe 99% of thsoe races will end in
field sprint. You're saying if you raced 50 days/year only one race
would have a break?

On Jun 30, 8:16 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:

Read this:http://spokepost.com/news/story/1216/

Yes that is a good link. Thanks. I read it two years ago and I've sent
it to friends as a nice reference.

Section 4 specifically cites the topic at hand. Interesting that it's
specifically called out:

"...cat 4 races usually play out with everyone sitting around until
someone attacks, then everyone killing themselves to catch the poor
guy, then everyone sitting around again."

What I'm wondering is if there is a way to break this. Probably not as
I'm looking for potential trickery where it may not exist due to the
dynamics at this level of racing. But it was entertaining to ask the
group and I appreciate those who responded.

Also, is I find it hard to believe 99% of those races will end in
field sprint.

Now then John. You clearly understood the point so why play silly
buggers? The artical you linked to says: "usually". Others have said:
"rarely succeeds". Shall we argue semantics just for fun? If you
happen to have a proper tally over an adequate sample set please let
us know. Or even an educated guess as you've raced a lot more in this
region than I have. I'd (WHAG) less than 8% A quick look at 15 races
with results on BikeReg coupled with my experience suggests under 10%
and probably well under.

Ronaldo -- I take your point but it is fun most of the time. I shall
endeavor to get faster of course and you may be right to suggest that
is the only real solution.

Scott - thanks. I've given that strategy a go without success. I may
need to just go harder and if I pop that's life.

Mark