|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#131
|
|||
|
|||
MTB disc brake caused wild fire
On Wed, 04 Apr 2018 15:01:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/4/2018 1:34 PM, Joerg wrote: I try not to follow other riders closely and generally use the 2-3 seconds rule for safety distances like one uses when driving a car. It also makes me uncomfortable if others draft me at higher speed. I understand the motivation behind it, it's just not safe when there is a chance of a sudden speed change. Car pulling out in front of me, deer jumping into the path, tire blow-out, etc. If you're using the 2-3 second rule when riding with others, you're not riding with others. And if drafting is too dangerous for you, you're not much of a rider. I hate to agree with you but. You are in my opinion correct. I have ridden motorcycles at silly speeds at vary close quarters with people whose reactions to road hazards are predictable. Everyone sees the bad thing and reacts accordingly whilst maintaining sensible / some / just enough distance between them. You should not draft squirrely, unsteady riders. You should not ride too close to people like that. But there are thousands of avid riders every day who enjoy each others' company and/or have fun competing and training or just touring. These avid riders know what the best course of action is for given situations and all of them would probably react similarly to certain stimuli. Deer coming from the left. Brake and go left. Let it pass in front. Squirrelly riders may go right and be claimed by the deer. My wife completed her first century (in 1976) specifically because we worked well as a team. I was good at towing her and she was good at drafting me. She probably wouldn't have completed it otherwise. Yes, it's possible to do all your riding solo, but its not as much fun. And fear of riding near others indicates less competence on the bike. Two player games are always more fun. -- davethedave |
Ads |
#132
|
|||
|
|||
MTB disc brake caused wild fire
On 4/4/2018 4:05 PM, jbeattie wrote:
What my CX and MTB friends do better than me is go over things. I just try to avoid those things, but it would be neat to be Peter Sagan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxwP2MnDw28 He didn't need to do that, but if he had been squeezed, it was an option. I've previously posted this tale, but maybe Joerg wasn't around then. It was maybe 25 years ago, and two riding buddies and I were on a long and pretty fast rural ride. The road was smooth but narrow and remote enough that there was zero traffic. Although it wasn't legal, we were riding along three abreast, maybe a foot between handlebars. I was in the middle. As we approached an isolated farmhouse, a little dog suddenly ran out yapping in front of us. Or rather, in front of me. (Really, unleashed dogs are so rare around here it was quite a surprise.) I had nowhere to go but up, so I jumped over the dog - or rather, over most of it. My front wheel cleared, but my rear wheel hit his shoulder and apparently broke it. As we stopped and turned around, he had one front leg collapsed under him and was yapping and scooting in circles on the road. We somehow managed to get him off the road and pounded on the farmhouse door for quite a while. A bleary-eyed young guy eventually appeared and when we explained, said something like "Huh." So we rode on. I've had lots of practice jumping the road bike, first on my commute down south, where it was the best way over a set of bad railroad tracks. On moving north, there was another set of bumpy tracks on my route to work, and our local roads have given me thousands of potholes for practice. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#133
|
|||
|
|||
MTB disc brake caused wild fire
On 2018-04-04 13:05, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, April 4, 2018 at 12:01:30 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/4/2018 1:34 PM, Joerg wrote: I try not to follow other riders closely and generally use the 2-3 seconds rule for safety distances like one uses when driving a car. It also makes me uncomfortable if others draft me at higher speed. I understand the motivation behind it, it's just not safe when there is a chance of a sudden speed change. Car pulling out in front of me, deer jumping into the path, tire blow-out, etc. If you're using the 2-3 second rule when riding with others, you're not riding with others. And if drafting is too dangerous for you, you're not much of a rider. Wot nonsense. You should not draft squirrely, unsteady riders. You should not ride too close to people like that. But there are thousands of avid riders every day who enjoy each others' company and/or have fun competing and training or just touring. My wife completed her first century (in 1976) specifically because we worked well as a team. I was good at towing her and she was good at drafting me. She probably wouldn't have completed it otherwise. Yes, it's possible to do all your riding solo, but its not as much fun. And fear of riding near others indicates less competence on the bike. I let it space out on descents. I wasn't that close to my son and would have had enough room to get by him if he hadn't hockey-pucked down-slope on the reverse-banked turn. It was hard to plot a course with a moving object in front of me. The question is also, what would the outcome have been had you not gone behind the saddle for harder braking? In most of my cases the answer would be "worse". Joerg's super-human MTB skills give him an advantage over mortal road racers in some situations, e.g.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr89ku-K2WU BTW, Beloki's crash is exactly Joerg's "instinct" scenario -- Beloki loses traction, shifts weight back and brakes and then high-side crashes -- and breaks his leg, among other bones. Slow-mo here at :34. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_8m5-sR6I4 Where does he go behind the saddle? All I can see is he shifts around on it. With behind the saddle I mean really behind _and_ the belly on the saddle. What my CX and MTB friends do better than me is go over things. I just try to avoid those things, but it would be neat to be Peter Sagan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxwP2MnDw28 He didn't need to do that, but if he had been squeezed, it was an option. the usual option is ala track racing -- push the guy next to you out of the way. Nice. Don't try that with loaded panniers in back ... Yesterday on the way into the valley I had one of the typical "you don't want to be inches behind me" scenarios. A whipsnake came slithering into the road, fast. So it was the usual, scoot back, hard braking, go around. http://www.californiaherps.com/snake...xanthusmt2.jpg Some heartless people would say "You don't brake for an animal" but I see that differently. Also, hitting a garden-hose type structure at a shallow angle can be bad. I can't bunny hop the back of either of my bikes because that's too heavy. Those are beautiful snakes. Weird thing is, they seem to somehow notice when something (like a bicycle) comes up from behind but then often do the wrong thing. They freeze. Supposedly they can slither along at up to 10mph if in a hurry. Yet they often don't when speed would be needed the most. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#134
|
|||
|
|||
MTB disc brake caused wild fire
On Thursday, April 5, 2018 at 7:18:18 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-04 13:05, jbeattie wrote: On Wednesday, April 4, 2018 at 12:01:30 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/4/2018 1:34 PM, Joerg wrote: I try not to follow other riders closely and generally use the 2-3 seconds rule for safety distances like one uses when driving a car. It also makes me uncomfortable if others draft me at higher speed. I understand the motivation behind it, it's just not safe when there is a chance of a sudden speed change. Car pulling out in front of me, deer jumping into the path, tire blow-out, etc. If you're using the 2-3 second rule when riding with others, you're not riding with others. And if drafting is too dangerous for you, you're not much of a rider. Wot nonsense. You should not draft squirrely, unsteady riders. You should not ride too close to people like that. But there are thousands of avid riders every day who enjoy each others' company and/or have fun competing and training or just touring. My wife completed her first century (in 1976) specifically because we worked well as a team. I was good at towing her and she was good at drafting me. She probably wouldn't have completed it otherwise. Yes, it's possible to do all your riding solo, but its not as much fun. And fear of riding near others indicates less competence on the bike. I let it space out on descents. I wasn't that close to my son and would have had enough room to get by him if he hadn't hockey-pucked down-slope on the reverse-banked turn. It was hard to plot a course with a moving object in front of me. The question is also, what would the outcome have been had you not gone behind the saddle for harder braking? In most of my cases the answer would be "worse". Joerg's super-human MTB skills give him an advantage over mortal road racers in some situations, e.g.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr89ku-K2WU BTW, Beloki's crash is exactly Joerg's "instinct" scenario -- Beloki loses traction, shifts weight back and brakes and then high-side crashes -- and breaks his leg, among other bones. Slow-mo here at :34. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_8m5-sR6I4 Where does he go behind the saddle? All I can see is he shifts around on it. With behind the saddle I mean really behind _and_ the belly on the saddle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc0kEMV8GYQ :029 -- arms extended, weight back over the seat. And belly on the saddle? What, so the front end can cut loose? The guy got going sideways because he used too much brake on a slippery road surface. He also had a rear tubular that had or was in the process of rolling off the rim. When he got traction, he high-sided. Putting his belly on the saddle would have done nothing except hasten the inevitable, and more importantly, when you have a radical loss of traction, hard braking with your belly on the saddle is like hard braking on ice. Belly on the saddle -- assuming you have the arms of an orangutan -- is to prevent pitch-over with in-line panic braking. It doesn't do anything for you in a turn, as I have already said. But I know you like that move, and the next time you are cornering and lose traction, give it a whirl. You'll lose more front end traction and probably high-side, but I don't know for certain and look forward to your report. This is really the place where you should be ragging on rim brakes and rim heating, etc., etc. You need to get your agenda items straight. Beloki should have had discs with 12" rotors, although those might have caused a grass fire when he crashed. -- Jay Beattie. |
#135
|
|||
|
|||
MTB disc brake caused wild fire
On 04/04/2018 1:34 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-04 10:01, jbeattie wrote: On Wednesday, April 4, 2018 at 9:17:14 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-04-04 08:49, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/4/2018 9:39 AM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-04-03 19:10, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/3/2018 10:47 AM, Joerg wrote: It is not about preventing the crash, it clearly was too late for that. It is about reducing the severity of the crash. What is better, smacking into a car at 40mph or at 30mph? I'm glad you're no longer implying he could have avoided the crash. Now you're only claiming that if it were you, you would have crashed a bit less hard. You're edging toward reasonableness. I would not have crashed. The reason is very simple: I do not blast down long hills at breakneck speed. In other words, you would never have been in a race on that road, not even a beginner's race. Which means any comments you make are completely irrelevant. Just because you don't understand them does not make them irrelevant. Racers and non-racers can get into critical situations and then the right (trained) reactions help. The advantage of going behind the saddle is such situations may not be obvious to you but it is to many experienced riders. I'm an experienced former USCF/USAC racer and rode the whole time you were side-lined by traffic, including super-gnarly road races with dangerous descents at brake-neck speeds with a bunch of incompetent Cat 3 racers -- and then 1,2,3 masters who were a lot more competent and often out of sight before I got to the downhill.Â* I also climb and descend every day. Personally, as a recognized expert in my own mind, I only get "behind my saddle" for hard, in-line braking to prevent pitch over. Descending I plan ahead -- pick a line and brake reasonably before hitting the turn and keep my weight low and centered over the bike to maximize contact with both tires. I'll shift my weight back to counter front braking forces before a turn, but it's not some "belly on the top tube" super-awesome thing. Most "critical" situations descending are irreparable and involve total loss of traction. If I carry too much speed into a turn and have to brake in the turn while the bike is pitched over, I try to brake lightly and stay relaxed -- which is really counter-instinctive. I've only bailed into the bushes once in my life. Hard braking of any kind -- with my butt back or not -- will cause the front or rear wheel to lose traction, or it will cause the bike to stand up and a high side crash. This is where road biking differs from mountain biking -- you cant stick the rear wheel and skid a turn.Â* When the sh** hits the fan, I try for a low side crash -- which didn't work the last time.Â* Instead, I did exactly like you said -- weight back, hard braking while set in a turn to avoid my son who was sliding around on the road in front of me.Â* Bike stood up, front wheel wobbled, and I did a high-side cartwheel right over him. I now have a plate in my right hand to memorialize the crash.Â*Â* I think its engraved with "always remember, give your son more room when descending a wet road and he's riding on slippery OE tires." Ouch, that must have been a bad crash. Your son was probably lucky that you "pivoted" across him and not into him. I try not to follow other riders closely and generally use the 2-3 seconds rule for safety distances like one uses when driving a car. It also makes me uncomfortable if others draft me at higher speed. I understand the motivation behind it, it's just not safe when there is a chance of a sudden speed change. Car pulling out in front of me, deer jumping into the path, tire blow-out, etc. At a typical cruising speed of 30k/h, you leave 8-12 meters between riders? |
#136
|
|||
|
|||
MTB disc brake caused wild fire
On Thursday, April 5, 2018 at 5:59:01 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 5, 2018 at 7:18:18 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-04-04 13:05, jbeattie wrote: On Wednesday, April 4, 2018 at 12:01:30 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/4/2018 1:34 PM, Joerg wrote: I try not to follow other riders closely and generally use the 2-3 seconds rule for safety distances like one uses when driving a car. It also makes me uncomfortable if others draft me at higher speed. I understand the motivation behind it, it's just not safe when there is a chance of a sudden speed change. Car pulling out in front of me, deer jumping into the path, tire blow-out, etc. If you're using the 2-3 second rule when riding with others, you're not riding with others. And if drafting is too dangerous for you, you're not much of a rider. Wot nonsense. You should not draft squirrely, unsteady riders. You should not ride too close to people like that. But there are thousands of avid riders every day who enjoy each others' company and/or have fun competing and training or just touring. My wife completed her first century (in 1976) specifically because we worked well as a team. I was good at towing her and she was good at drafting me. She probably wouldn't have completed it otherwise. Yes, it's possible to do all your riding solo, but its not as much fun. And fear of riding near others indicates less competence on the bike. I let it space out on descents. I wasn't that close to my son and would have had enough room to get by him if he hadn't hockey-pucked down-slope on the reverse-banked turn. It was hard to plot a course with a moving object in front of me. The question is also, what would the outcome have been had you not gone behind the saddle for harder braking? In most of my cases the answer would be "worse". Joerg's super-human MTB skills give him an advantage over mortal road racers in some situations, e.g.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr89ku-K2WU BTW, Beloki's crash is exactly Joerg's "instinct" scenario -- Beloki loses traction, shifts weight back and brakes and then high-side crashes -- and breaks his leg, among other bones. Slow-mo here at :34. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_8m5-sR6I4 Where does he go behind the saddle? All I can see is he shifts around on it. With behind the saddle I mean really behind _and_ the belly on the saddle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc0kEMV8GYQ :029 -- arms extended, weight back over the seat. And belly on the saddle? What, so the front end can cut loose? The guy got going sideways because he used too much brake on a slippery road surface.. He also had a rear tubular that had or was in the process of rolling off the rim. When he got traction, he high-sided. Putting his belly on the saddle would have done nothing except hasten the inevitable, and more importantly, when you have a radical loss of traction, hard braking with your belly on the saddle is like hard braking on ice. Belly on the saddle -- assuming you have the arms of an orangutan -- is to prevent pitch-over with in-line panic braking. It doesn't do anything for you in a turn, as I have already said. But I know you like that move, and the next time you are cornering and lose traction, give it a whirl. You'll lose more front end traction and probably high-side, but I don't know for certain and look forward to your report. This is really the place where you should be ragging on rim brakes and rim heating, etc., etc. You need to get your agenda items straight. Beloki should have had discs with 12" rotors, although those might have caused a grass fire when he crashed. -- Jay Beattie. I don't understand why you bother. It is like talking to a brick. Belly on your saddle, yeah right. Lou |
#137
|
|||
|
|||
MTB disc brake caused wild fire
On Thursday, April 5, 2018 at 12:33:38 PM UTC-4, duane wrote:
On 04/04/2018 1:34 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-04-04 10:01, jbeattie wrote: On Wednesday, April 4, 2018 at 9:17:14 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-04-04 08:49, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/4/2018 9:39 AM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-04-03 19:10, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/3/2018 10:47 AM, Joerg wrote: It is not about preventing the crash, it clearly was too late for that. It is about reducing the severity of the crash. What is better, smacking into a car at 40mph or at 30mph? I'm glad you're no longer implying he could have avoided the crash. Now you're only claiming that if it were you, you would have crashed a bit less hard. You're edging toward reasonableness. I would not have crashed. The reason is very simple: I do not blast down long hills at breakneck speed. In other words, you would never have been in a race on that road, not even a beginner's race. Which means any comments you make are completely irrelevant. Just because you don't understand them does not make them irrelevant. Racers and non-racers can get into critical situations and then the right (trained) reactions help. The advantage of going behind the saddle is such situations may not be obvious to you but it is to many experienced riders. I'm an experienced former USCF/USAC racer and rode the whole time you were side-lined by traffic, including super-gnarly road races with dangerous descents at brake-neck speeds with a bunch of incompetent Cat 3 racers -- and then 1,2,3 masters who were a lot more competent and often out of sight before I got to the downhill.Â* I also climb and descend every day. Personally, as a recognized expert in my own mind, I only get "behind my saddle" for hard, in-line braking to prevent pitch over. Descending I plan ahead -- pick a line and brake reasonably before hitting the turn and keep my weight low and centered over the bike to maximize contact with both tires. I'll shift my weight back to counter front braking forces before a turn, but it's not some "belly on the top tube" super-awesome thing. Most "critical" situations descending are irreparable and involve total loss of traction. If I carry too much speed into a turn and have to brake in the turn while the bike is pitched over, I try to brake lightly and stay relaxed -- which is really counter-instinctive. I've only bailed into the bushes once in my life. Hard braking of any kind -- with my butt back or not -- will cause the front or rear wheel to lose traction, or it will cause the bike to stand up and a high side crash. This is where road biking differs from mountain biking -- you cant stick the rear wheel and skid a turn.Â* When the sh** hits the fan, I try for a low side crash -- which didn't work the last time.Â* Instead, I did exactly like you said -- weight back, hard braking while set in a turn to avoid my son who was sliding around on the road in front of me.Â* Bike stood up, front wheel wobbled, and I did a high-side cartwheel right over him. I now have a plate in my right hand to memorialize the crash.Â*Â* I think its engraved with "always remember, give your son more room when descending a wet road and he's riding on slippery OE tires." Ouch, that must have been a bad crash. Your son was probably lucky that you "pivoted" across him and not into him. I try not to follow other riders closely and generally use the 2-3 seconds rule for safety distances like one uses when driving a car. It also makes me uncomfortable if others draft me at higher speed. I understand the motivation behind it, it's just not safe when there is a chance of a sudden speed change. Car pulling out in front of me, deer jumping into the path, tire blow-out, etc. At a typical cruising speed of 30k/h, you leave 8-12 meters between riders? I doubt anyone ever rides with Joerg. - Frank Krygowski |
#138
|
|||
|
|||
MTB disc brake caused wild fire
On 2018-04-05 08:58, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 5, 2018 at 7:18:18 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-04-04 13:05, jbeattie wrote: [...] Joerg's super-human MTB skills give him an advantage over mortal road racers in some situations, e.g.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr89ku-K2WU BTW, Beloki's crash is exactly Joerg's "instinct" scenario -- Beloki loses traction, shifts weight back and brakes and then high-side crashes -- and breaks his leg, among other bones. Slow-mo here at :34. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_8m5-sR6I4 Where does he go behind the saddle? All I can see is he shifts around on it. With behind the saddle I mean really behind _and_ the belly on the saddle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc0kEMV8GYQ :029 -- arms extended, weight back over the seat. Nope. At the most there is some jerking around of his body because the bike is already way out of control at that point. And belly on the saddle? What, so the front end can cut loose? The guy got going sideways because he used too much brake on a slippery road surface. He also had a rear tubular that had or was in the process of rolling off the rim. When he got traction, he high-sided. Putting his belly on the saddle would have done nothing except hasten the inevitable, and more importantly, when you have a radical loss of traction, hard braking with your belly on the saddle is like hard braking on ice. Belly on the saddle -- assuming you have the arms of an orangutan -- is to prevent pitch-over with in-line panic braking. It doesn't do anything for you in a turn, as I have already said. But I know you like that move, and the next time you are cornering and lose traction, give it a whirl. You'll lose more front end traction and probably high-side, but I don't know for certain and look forward to your report. I never said to do that in a curve or after a situation has already gone out of control. It's before that. In the Guardsman video well before the curve and a few riders (too few) did it correctly, butt way behind the saddle and low body posture. In my cases most of the events where I had to go behind the saddle were caused by me. Like when I blew past a turn-off on singletrack and had a rock pile coming up, fast. It works. Sometimes it's not my fault like when a young buck decided to cut across the trail without looking. Then there is no time, you need to do it without even thinking. If I go down a very steep section that already looks scary to begin with I scoot behind the saddle right from the top. This is really the place where you should be ragging on rim brakes and rim heating, etc., etc. You need to get your agenda items straight. Beloki should have had discs with 12" rotors, although those might have caused a grass fire when he crashed. I am happy with 8". No "metallic smells" anymore. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#139
|
|||
|
|||
MTB disc brake caused wild fire
On 2018-04-05 09:33, Duane wrote:
On 04/04/2018 1:34 PM, Joerg wrote: [...] I try not to follow other riders closely and generally use the 2-3 seconds rule for safety distances like one uses when driving a car. It also makes me uncomfortable if others draft me at higher speed. I understand the motivation behind it, it's just not safe when there is a chance of a sudden speed change. Car pulling out in front of me, deer jumping into the path, tire blow-out, etc. At a typical cruising speed of 30k/h, you leave 8-12 meters between riders? More like 50ft or 15 meters unless the other rider is aware of me and I know the rider well. On singletrack in the summer 100-200ft but that has to do with dust kicked up by riders in front. If I needed to minimize wind resistance I'd get a "rolling Zeppelin" but I never felt that urge. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#140
|
|||
|
|||
MTB disc brake caused wild fire
On 06/04/2018 10:26 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-05 09:33, Duane wrote: On 04/04/2018 1:34 PM, Joerg wrote: [...] I try not to follow other riders closely and generally use the 2-3 seconds rule for safety distances like one uses when driving a car. It also makes me uncomfortable if others draft me at higher speed. I understand the motivation behind it, it's just not safe when there is a chance of a sudden speed change. Car pulling out in front of me, deer jumping into the path, tire blow-out, etc. At a typical cruising speed of 30k/h, you leave 8-12 meters between riders? More like 50ft or 15 meters unless the other rider is aware of me and I know the rider well. On singletrack in the summer 100-200ft but that has to do with dust kicked up by riders in front. So most of what you are advising is worthless for group riding. I'm probably not 15 inches from the person in front of me. When I'm on my own, if I don't know the person I pass them. If I needed to minimize wind resistance I'd get a "rolling Zeppelin" but I never felt that urge. You are in a different world. Nothing wrong with that but there's no need to lecture people in this one. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Disc Brake Retrofits - A2Z Disc Brake Adaptor | ajc | Techniques | 3 | April 20th 05 10:27 PM |
FS: 2005 XTR Brake/Shifter/disc brake set-up | John Hunt | Marketplace | 0 | November 10th 04 11:58 PM |
disc brake/disc wheels options | JS | Mountain Biking | 14 | November 4th 04 06:12 PM |
WYB: **Avid** Disc Brake mech 160mm & Disc Wheelset | UltraEGG | Marketplace | 2 | May 15th 04 05:57 PM |
Disc Brake Adapter for 2001 Gary Fisher Hoo Koo E Koo Frame, Disk Brake | HKEK | Techniques | 0 | February 29th 04 03:35 AM |