Dry lube?

On Thursday, May 3, 2018 at 6:44:54 PM UTC+2, duane wrote:
On 03/05/2018 12:28 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, May 3, 2018 at 6:16:29 PM UTC+2, duane wrote:
On 03/05/2018 9:01 AM, sms wrote:
On 5/2/2018 3:26 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 2, 2018 at 3:01:21 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 5/1/2018 12:03 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 10:26:57 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 4/29/2018 8:19 AM, wrote:

Another thing that is puzzling is that while you are recommending
this
remarkable foaming stuff and don't actually say so your language
seems
to hint that without foam it just won't penetrate into the chain
links
yet I have worked on chain driven equipment with chains that were
ten
or more years old. Still perfectly usable and no foam at all. Just a
SAE 40 oil bath.

It is easy to penetrate a chain. The lube just has to have a low
enough viscosity that is all. Thats why wax based lubes have some
volatile component. The cheapest is iso propanol. Oil has a low
enough viscosity of his own.

So the question is, is foam really necessary?

Of course not.

The advantage of using a foaming chain lubricant is that, unlike an
oil
bath, you don't have to remove the chain and soak it.

With an oil bath, it does help to heat the oil slightly if you want to
speed up the process.

I have tried doing an "oil bath" with one of those chain cleaning
tools
filled with non-detergent oil instead of solvent. It works, but it's
messy and probably no faster than removing the chain, since you
need to
move the chain through the oil pretty slowly.

With the new thinner chains, you want to minimize removing them unless
they have a connecting link and don't require a rivet extractor.

My goal is to minimize the time and expense of chain maintenance. A
chain cleaning tool used with kerosene or diesel fuel as a solvent,
and
a can of non-O-ring foaming chain lubricant gets the time down to
just a
few minutes. I have no interest in recreational chain maintenance..

Bad news -- most 11sp quick-links are designated single use.
https://www.sram.com/sram/mountain/p...ector-11-speed


Probably to sell them in bulk. Goin' to Joergville for those:
https://www.amazon.com/JooFn-Silver-...ter+link&psc=1


For an Amazon link (no pun intended), all you need is this
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0787Y7WKN.

I guess $2 each is not a big deal, as long as you can keep from losing
them in the garage.

But it's really unnecessary since there's no benefit in removing the
chain for cleaning and lubrication. The chain cleaning devices keep the
chain in motion through the solvent and do a better job of cleaning than
just dropping the chain in a container of solvent and agitating it (I
agree with Sheldon on this!). Foaming chain lubricant is as good as
dropping the chain into a pan of warm non-detergent motor oil. I put a
big plastic pan under the chain to catch any spills
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Plasgad-Black-Large-Concrete-Mixing-Tub-887102C/205451585.

Again, my goal is to minimize the time and effort of chain maintenance
while not sacrificing proper cleaning and lubrication.

Do you use one of those chain cleaning devices.Â* I tried an early
version a million years ago, and it just spewed crap all over and was
a messy nightmare. If I actually remove a chain, I put it into a
patented cottage cheese container with a lid and some solvent and
shake it up.Â* I rarely do that -- and I only do it with the 9 or 10sp
chains.

They have greatly improved. There is still some dripping, but you can
catch it in a pan underneath. The bigger issue is that it takes several
solvent changes before the chain runs clean.

I was talking to a guy at the old Tech Shop who worked at a bicycle shop
that had a chain cleaning system set up that pumped fresh solvent
through from a tank through the device so they didn't have to keep
opening the device to change the solvent. I don't know if this was a
commercially available device to shops, or if they built it themselves.

Removing the chain and shaking it inside a container, cottage cheese or
soda bottle, filled with solvent might not be as effective as the chain
moving through the chain cleaner with the pins and rollers all flexing,
that's the theory.

Sheldon Brown writes, "The on-the-bike system has the advantage that the
cleaning machine flexes the links and spins the rollers. This scrubbing
action may do a better job of cleaning the innards."

I know that someone is going to demand a double-blind study with a
sample size of two million, that examines the difference in cleanliness
between a chain cleaning tool on-the-bike, and a chain being shaken in a
container of solvent off-the-bike, but I confess in advance that there
is probably no such study either completed or in progress, and I know
that Sheldon equivocated when he said "may do a" rather than "does" but
I suspect he did so because of the lack of a study.

I don't know about studies. I don't even bother to change the
degreaser. I run it through for a few minutes, wipe the chain off and
let it dry then oil the chain. Life's too short for much more than that.

I don't think there is one best method for everyone who have different requirements and priorities. I treat my chain and cassette on my commuter bike different than on my high end road bike. Cassette and chain for my commuter cost 50 euro's; for my high end road bike almost 300 euro's. Bikes are ridden in different circumstances and different frequencies


For sure. I got rid of my commuter bike and now only have my road bike.
I use it for commuting. Tarmac Pro 11 speed with SRAM. Pretty high
end for my budget. Chain costs probably 90 dollars (CA). 300 Euros is
a lot.

chain and cassette that is:

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Ca...issset-p49421/

Lou

On 03/05/2018 1:12 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, May 3, 2018 at 6:44:54 PM UTC+2, duane wrote:
On 03/05/2018 12:28 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, May 3, 2018 at 6:16:29 PM UTC+2, duane wrote:
On 03/05/2018 9:01 AM, sms wrote:
On 5/2/2018 3:26 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 2, 2018 at 3:01:21 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 5/1/2018 12:03 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 10:26:57 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 4/29/2018 8:19 AM, wrote:

Another thing that is puzzling is that while you are recommending
this
remarkable foaming stuff and don't actually say so your language
seems
to hint that without foam it just won't penetrate into the chain
links
yet I have worked on chain driven equipment with chains that were
ten
or more years old. Still perfectly usable and no foam at all. Just a
SAE 40 oil bath.

It is easy to penetrate a chain. The lube just has to have a low
enough viscosity that is all. Thats why wax based lubes have some
volatile component. The cheapest is iso propanol. Oil has a low
enough viscosity of his own.

So the question is, is foam really necessary?

Of course not.

The advantage of using a foaming chain lubricant is that, unlike an
oil
bath, you don't have to remove the chain and soak it.

With an oil bath, it does help to heat the oil slightly if you want to
speed up the process.

I have tried doing an "oil bath" with one of those chain cleaning
tools
filled with non-detergent oil instead of solvent. It works, but it's
messy and probably no faster than removing the chain, since you
need to
move the chain through the oil pretty slowly.

With the new thinner chains, you want to minimize removing them unless
they have a connecting link and don't require a rivet extractor.

My goal is to minimize the time and expense of chain maintenance. A
chain cleaning tool used with kerosene or diesel fuel as a solvent,
and
a can of non-O-ring foaming chain lubricant gets the time down to
just a
few minutes. I have no interest in recreational chain maintenance.

Bad news -- most 11sp quick-links are designated single use.
https://www.sram.com/sram/mountain/p...ector-11-speed


Probably to sell them in bulk. Goin' to Joergville for those:
https://www.amazon.com/JooFn-Silver-...ter+link&psc=1


For an Amazon link (no pun intended), all you need is this
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0787Y7WKN.

I guess $2 each is not a big deal, as long as you can keep from losing
them in the garage.

But it's really unnecessary since there's no benefit in removing the
chain for cleaning and lubrication. The chain cleaning devices keep the
chain in motion through the solvent and do a better job of cleaning than
just dropping the chain in a container of solvent and agitating it (I
agree with Sheldon on this!). Foaming chain lubricant is as good as
dropping the chain into a pan of warm non-detergent motor oil. I put a
big plastic pan under the chain to catch any spills
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Plasgad-Black-Large-Concrete-Mixing-Tub-887102C/205451585.

Again, my goal is to minimize the time and effort of chain maintenance
while not sacrificing proper cleaning and lubrication.

Do you use one of those chain cleaning devices.Â* I tried an early
version a million years ago, and it just spewed crap all over and was
a messy nightmare. If I actually remove a chain, I put it into a
patented cottage cheese container with a lid and some solvent and
shake it up.Â* I rarely do that -- and I only do it with the 9 or 10sp
chains.

They have greatly improved. There is still some dripping, but you can
catch it in a pan underneath. The bigger issue is that it takes several
solvent changes before the chain runs clean.

I was talking to a guy at the old Tech Shop who worked at a bicycle shop
that had a chain cleaning system set up that pumped fresh solvent
through from a tank through the device so they didn't have to keep
opening the device to change the solvent. I don't know if this was a
commercially available device to shops, or if they built it themselves.

Removing the chain and shaking it inside a container, cottage cheese or
soda bottle, filled with solvent might not be as effective as the chain
moving through the chain cleaner with the pins and rollers all flexing,
that's the theory.

Sheldon Brown writes, "The on-the-bike system has the advantage that the
cleaning machine flexes the links and spins the rollers. This scrubbing
action may do a better job of cleaning the innards."

I know that someone is going to demand a double-blind study with a
sample size of two million, that examines the difference in cleanliness
between a chain cleaning tool on-the-bike, and a chain being shaken in a
container of solvent off-the-bike, but I confess in advance that there
is probably no such study either completed or in progress, and I know
that Sheldon equivocated when he said "may do a" rather than "does" but
I suspect he did so because of the lack of a study.

I don't know about studies. I don't even bother to change the
degreaser. I run it through for a few minutes, wipe the chain off and
let it dry then oil the chain. Life's too short for much more than that.

I don't think there is one best method for everyone who have different requirements and priorities. I treat my chain and cassette on my commuter bike different than on my high end road bike. Cassette and chain for my commuter cost 50 euro's; for my high end road bike almost 300 euro's. Bikes are ridden in different circumstances and different frequencies


For sure. I got rid of my commuter bike and now only have my road bike.
I use it for commuting. Tarmac Pro 11 speed with SRAM. Pretty high
end for my budget. Chain costs probably 90 dollars (CA). 300 Euros is
a lot.

chain and cassette that is:

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Ca...issset-p49421/


Still more expensive than SRAM:
https://www.bike-components.de/en/SR...issset-p50094/

On Thursday, May 3, 2018 at 7:18:26 PM UTC+2, duane wrote:
On 03/05/2018 1:12 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, May 3, 2018 at 6:44:54 PM UTC+2, duane wrote:
On 03/05/2018 12:28 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, May 3, 2018 at 6:16:29 PM UTC+2, duane wrote:
On 03/05/2018 9:01 AM, sms wrote:
On 5/2/2018 3:26 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 2, 2018 at 3:01:21 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 5/1/2018 12:03 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 10:26:57 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 4/29/2018 8:19 AM, wrote:

Another thing that is puzzling is that while you are recommending
this
remarkable foaming stuff and don't actually say so your language
seems
to hint that without foam it just won't penetrate into the chain
links
yet I have worked on chain driven equipment with chains that were
ten
or more years old. Still perfectly usable and no foam at all. Just a
SAE 40 oil bath.

It is easy to penetrate a chain. The lube just has to have a low
enough viscosity that is all. Thats why wax based lubes have some
volatile component. The cheapest is iso propanol. Oil has a low
enough viscosity of his own.

So the question is, is foam really necessary?

Of course not.

The advantage of using a foaming chain lubricant is that, unlike an
oil
bath, you don't have to remove the chain and soak it.

With an oil bath, it does help to heat the oil slightly if you want to
speed up the process.

I have tried doing an "oil bath" with one of those chain cleaning
tools
filled with non-detergent oil instead of solvent. It works, but it's
messy and probably no faster than removing the chain, since you
need to
move the chain through the oil pretty slowly.

With the new thinner chains, you want to minimize removing them unless
they have a connecting link and don't require a rivet extractor..

My goal is to minimize the time and expense of chain maintenance. A
chain cleaning tool used with kerosene or diesel fuel as a solvent,
and
a can of non-O-ring foaming chain lubricant gets the time down to
just a
few minutes. I have no interest in recreational chain maintenance.

Bad news -- most 11sp quick-links are designated single use.
https://www.sram.com/sram/mountain/p...ector-11-speed


Probably to sell them in bulk. Goin' to Joergville for those:
https://www.amazon.com/JooFn-Silver-...ter+link&psc=1


For an Amazon link (no pun intended), all you need is this
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0787Y7WKN.

I guess $2 each is not a big deal, as long as you can keep from losing
them in the garage.

But it's really unnecessary since there's no benefit in removing the
chain for cleaning and lubrication. The chain cleaning devices keep the
chain in motion through the solvent and do a better job of cleaning than
just dropping the chain in a container of solvent and agitating it (I
agree with Sheldon on this!). Foaming chain lubricant is as good as
dropping the chain into a pan of warm non-detergent motor oil. I put a
big plastic pan under the chain to catch any spills
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Plasgad-Black-Large-Concrete-Mixing-Tub-887102C/205451585.

Again, my goal is to minimize the time and effort of chain maintenance
while not sacrificing proper cleaning and lubrication.

Do you use one of those chain cleaning devices.Â* I tried an early
version a million years ago, and it just spewed crap all over and was
a messy nightmare. If I actually remove a chain, I put it into a
patented cottage cheese container with a lid and some solvent and
shake it up.Â* I rarely do that -- and I only do it with the 9 or 10sp
chains.

They have greatly improved. There is still some dripping, but you can
catch it in a pan underneath. The bigger issue is that it takes several
solvent changes before the chain runs clean.

I was talking to a guy at the old Tech Shop who worked at a bicycle shop
that had a chain cleaning system set up that pumped fresh solvent
through from a tank through the device so they didn't have to keep
opening the device to change the solvent. I don't know if this was a
commercially available device to shops, or if they built it themselves.

Removing the chain and shaking it inside a container, cottage cheese or
soda bottle, filled with solvent might not be as effective as the chain
moving through the chain cleaner with the pins and rollers all flexing,
that's the theory.

Sheldon Brown writes, "The on-the-bike system has the advantage that the
cleaning machine flexes the links and spins the rollers. This scrubbing
action may do a better job of cleaning the innards."

I know that someone is going to demand a double-blind study with a
sample size of two million, that examines the difference in cleanliness
between a chain cleaning tool on-the-bike, and a chain being shaken in a
container of solvent off-the-bike, but I confess in advance that there
is probably no such study either completed or in progress, and I know
that Sheldon equivocated when he said "may do a" rather than "does" but
I suspect he did so because of the lack of a study.

I don't know about studies. I don't even bother to change the
degreaser. I run it through for a few minutes, wipe the chain off and
let it dry then oil the chain. Life's too short for much more than that.

I don't think there is one best method for everyone who have different requirements and priorities. I treat my chain and cassette on my commuter bike different than on my high end road bike. Cassette and chain for my commuter cost 50 euro's; for my high end road bike almost 300 euro's. Bikes are ridden in different circumstances and different frequencies


For sure. I got rid of my commuter bike and now only have my road bike.
I use it for commuting. Tarmac Pro 11 speed with SRAM. Pretty high
end for my budget. Chain costs probably 90 dollars (CA). 300 Euros is
a lot.

chain and cassette that is:

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Ca...issset-p49421/


Still more expensive than SRAM:
https://www.bike-components.de/en/SR...issset-p50094/

Mwah.. You have to compare apples with apples:

https://www.bike-components.de/en/SR...t-2016-p52744/

Lou

On 03/05/2018 2:32 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, May 3, 2018 at 7:18:26 PM UTC+2, duane wrote:
On 03/05/2018 1:12 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, May 3, 2018 at 6:44:54 PM UTC+2, duane wrote:
On 03/05/2018 12:28 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, May 3, 2018 at 6:16:29 PM UTC+2, duane wrote:
On 03/05/2018 9:01 AM, sms wrote:
On 5/2/2018 3:26 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 2, 2018 at 3:01:21 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 5/1/2018 12:03 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 10:26:57 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 4/29/2018 8:19 AM, wrote:

Another thing that is puzzling is that while you are recommending
this
remarkable foaming stuff and don't actually say so your language
seems
to hint that without foam it just won't penetrate into the chain
links
yet I have worked on chain driven equipment with chains that were
ten
or more years old. Still perfectly usable and no foam at all. Just a
SAE 40 oil bath.

It is easy to penetrate a chain. The lube just has to have a low
enough viscosity that is all. Thats why wax based lubes have some
volatile component. The cheapest is iso propanol. Oil has a low
enough viscosity of his own.

So the question is, is foam really necessary?

Of course not.

The advantage of using a foaming chain lubricant is that, unlike an
oil
bath, you don't have to remove the chain and soak it.

With an oil bath, it does help to heat the oil slightly if you want to
speed up the process.

I have tried doing an "oil bath" with one of those chain cleaning
tools
filled with non-detergent oil instead of solvent. It works, but it's
messy and probably no faster than removing the chain, since you
need to
move the chain through the oil pretty slowly.

With the new thinner chains, you want to minimize removing them unless
they have a connecting link and don't require a rivet extractor.

My goal is to minimize the time and expense of chain maintenance. A
chain cleaning tool used with kerosene or diesel fuel as a solvent,
and
a can of non-O-ring foaming chain lubricant gets the time down to
just a
few minutes. I have no interest in recreational chain maintenance.

Bad news -- most 11sp quick-links are designated single use.
https://www.sram.com/sram/mountain/p...ector-11-speed


Probably to sell them in bulk. Goin' to Joergville for those:
https://www.amazon.com/JooFn-Silver-...ter+link&psc=1


For an Amazon link (no pun intended), all you need is this
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0787Y7WKN.

I guess $2 each is not a big deal, as long as you can keep from losing
them in the garage.

But it's really unnecessary since there's no benefit in removing the
chain for cleaning and lubrication. The chain cleaning devices keep the
chain in motion through the solvent and do a better job of cleaning than
just dropping the chain in a container of solvent and agitating it (I
agree with Sheldon on this!). Foaming chain lubricant is as good as
dropping the chain into a pan of warm non-detergent motor oil. I put a
big plastic pan under the chain to catch any spills
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Plasgad-Black-Large-Concrete-Mixing-Tub-887102C/205451585.

Again, my goal is to minimize the time and effort of chain maintenance
while not sacrificing proper cleaning and lubrication.

Do you use one of those chain cleaning devices.Â* I tried an early
version a million years ago, and it just spewed crap all over and was
a messy nightmare. If I actually remove a chain, I put it into a
patented cottage cheese container with a lid and some solvent and
shake it up.Â* I rarely do that -- and I only do it with the 9 or 10sp
chains.

They have greatly improved. There is still some dripping, but you can
catch it in a pan underneath. The bigger issue is that it takes several
solvent changes before the chain runs clean.

I was talking to a guy at the old Tech Shop who worked at a bicycle shop
that had a chain cleaning system set up that pumped fresh solvent
through from a tank through the device so they didn't have to keep
opening the device to change the solvent. I don't know if this was a
commercially available device to shops, or if they built it themselves.

Removing the chain and shaking it inside a container, cottage cheese or
soda bottle, filled with solvent might not be as effective as the chain
moving through the chain cleaner with the pins and rollers all flexing,
that's the theory.

Sheldon Brown writes, "The on-the-bike system has the advantage that the
cleaning machine flexes the links and spins the rollers. This scrubbing
action may do a better job of cleaning the innards."

I know that someone is going to demand a double-blind study with a
sample size of two million, that examines the difference in cleanliness
between a chain cleaning tool on-the-bike, and a chain being shaken in a
container of solvent off-the-bike, but I confess in advance that there
is probably no such study either completed or in progress, and I know
that Sheldon equivocated when he said "may do a" rather than "does" but
I suspect he did so because of the lack of a study.

I don't know about studies. I don't even bother to change the
degreaser. I run it through for a few minutes, wipe the chain off and
let it dry then oil the chain. Life's too short for much more than that.

I don't think there is one best method for everyone who have different requirements and priorities. I treat my chain and cassette on my commuter bike different than on my high end road bike. Cassette and chain for my commuter cost 50 euro's; for my high end road bike almost 300 euro's. Bikes are ridden in different circumstances and different frequencies


For sure. I got rid of my commuter bike and now only have my road bike.
I use it for commuting. Tarmac Pro 11 speed with SRAM. Pretty high
end for my budget. Chain costs probably 90 dollars (CA). 300 Euros is
a lot.

chain and cassette that is:

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Ca...issset-p49421/


Still more expensive than SRAM:
https://www.bike-components.de/en/SR...issset-p50094/

Mwah.. You have to compare apples with apples:

https://www.bike-components.de/en/SR...t-2016-p52744/


No, I know that SRAM Red is close to your Campy. I was saying mine is
less expensive.

I think SRAM Force is closer to Ultegra although the previous year
Tarmac Pro was Dura Ace so I don't know why this one didn't come with
SRAM Red. I guess Specialized saved those for the SWorks models.

On Thursday, May 3, 2018 at 9:44:54 AM UTC-7, duane wrote:
snip

I don't think there is one best method for everyone who have different requirements and priorities. I treat my chain and cassette on my commuter bike different than on my high end road bike. Cassette and chain for my commuter cost 50 euro's; for my high end road bike almost 300 euro's. Bikes are ridden in different circumstances and different frequencies


For sure. I got rid of my commuter bike and now only have my road bike.
I use it for commuting. Tarmac Pro 11 speed with SRAM. Pretty high
end for my budget. Chain costs probably 90 dollars (CA). 300 Euros is
a lot.

Yikes, for commuting? I would not want to submit a Tarmac to the rack carnage in my building -- and the cost of disposables is a lot. OTOH, I rode a racing bike to work once or twice a week for many years because I raced after work, but thinking about bringing my current fancy plastic race bike to work makes me sweat.

I rode my beater commuter bike today, even though I had to sprint behind my human motor-pacer son on his Emonda. He can ride whatever he wants because everyone at his place of employment has plenty of inside bike storage, and everyone lives and breathes bikes.

BTW, we rode the MUP drag-strip up the east side of the river, collecting dopey riders who say nothing and just hunker down and draft. We either shake them or indicate in some other way that they should be appropriately social or f*** off. Personally, I wouldn't have the nerve to simply drop in on someone without at least saying, "hey, do you mind if I drop in?" And then I would trade off and do my part. I truly want to slam on my brakes, but I know that would be unChristian.

When the sun comes out, the number of cyclists in the facilities is mind-boggling, which is a good reason for avoiding them, but the MUP in question is a straight shot downtown with no interruptions and good passing room. OTOH, the west side cycle track is a jumble of signage, train tracks, lights and dopes in 8-ball helmets with ringy-bells. I avoid that or take a Xanax.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Thursday, May 3, 2018 at 8:55:23 PM UTC+2, duane wrote:
On 03/05/2018 2:32 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, May 3, 2018 at 7:18:26 PM UTC+2, duane wrote:
On 03/05/2018 1:12 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, May 3, 2018 at 6:44:54 PM UTC+2, duane wrote:
On 03/05/2018 12:28 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, May 3, 2018 at 6:16:29 PM UTC+2, duane wrote:
On 03/05/2018 9:01 AM, sms wrote:
On 5/2/2018 3:26 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 2, 2018 at 3:01:21 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 5/1/2018 12:03 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 10:26:57 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 4/29/2018 8:19 AM, wrote:

Another thing that is puzzling is that while you are recommending
this
remarkable foaming stuff and don't actually say so your language
seems
to hint that without foam it just won't penetrate into the chain
links
yet I have worked on chain driven equipment with chains that were
ten
or more years old. Still perfectly usable and no foam at all. Just a
SAE 40 oil bath.

It is easy to penetrate a chain. The lube just has to have a low
enough viscosity that is all. Thats why wax based lubes have some
volatile component. The cheapest is iso propanol. Oil has a low
enough viscosity of his own.

So the question is, is foam really necessary?

Of course not.

The advantage of using a foaming chain lubricant is that, unlike an
oil
bath, you don't have to remove the chain and soak it.

With an oil bath, it does help to heat the oil slightly if you want to
speed up the process.

I have tried doing an "oil bath" with one of those chain cleaning
tools
filled with non-detergent oil instead of solvent. It works, but it's
messy and probably no faster than removing the chain, since you
need to
move the chain through the oil pretty slowly.

With the new thinner chains, you want to minimize removing them unless
they have a connecting link and don't require a rivet extractor.

My goal is to minimize the time and expense of chain maintenance. A
chain cleaning tool used with kerosene or diesel fuel as a solvent,
and
a can of non-O-ring foaming chain lubricant gets the time down to
just a
few minutes. I have no interest in recreational chain maintenance.

Bad news -- most 11sp quick-links are designated single use.
https://www.sram.com/sram/mountain/p...ector-11-speed


Probably to sell them in bulk. Goin' to Joergville for those:
https://www.amazon.com/JooFn-Silver-...ter+link&psc=1


For an Amazon link (no pun intended), all you need is this
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0787Y7WKN.

I guess $2 each is not a big deal, as long as you can keep from losing
them in the garage.

But it's really unnecessary since there's no benefit in removing the
chain for cleaning and lubrication. The chain cleaning devices keep the
chain in motion through the solvent and do a better job of cleaning than
just dropping the chain in a container of solvent and agitating it (I
agree with Sheldon on this!). Foaming chain lubricant is as good as
dropping the chain into a pan of warm non-detergent motor oil. I put a
big plastic pan under the chain to catch any spills
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Plasgad-Black-Large-Concrete-Mixing-Tub-887102C/205451585.

Again, my goal is to minimize the time and effort of chain maintenance
while not sacrificing proper cleaning and lubrication.

Do you use one of those chain cleaning devices.Â* I tried an early
version a million years ago, and it just spewed crap all over and was
a messy nightmare. If I actually remove a chain, I put it into a
patented cottage cheese container with a lid and some solvent and
shake it up.Â* I rarely do that -- and I only do it with the 9 or 10sp
chains.

They have greatly improved. There is still some dripping, but you can
catch it in a pan underneath. The bigger issue is that it takes several
solvent changes before the chain runs clean.

I was talking to a guy at the old Tech Shop who worked at a bicycle shop
that had a chain cleaning system set up that pumped fresh solvent
through from a tank through the device so they didn't have to keep
opening the device to change the solvent. I don't know if this was a
commercially available device to shops, or if they built it themselves.

Removing the chain and shaking it inside a container, cottage cheese or
soda bottle, filled with solvent might not be as effective as the chain
moving through the chain cleaner with the pins and rollers all flexing,
that's the theory.

Sheldon Brown writes, "The on-the-bike system has the advantage that the
cleaning machine flexes the links and spins the rollers. This scrubbing
action may do a better job of cleaning the innards."

I know that someone is going to demand a double-blind study with a
sample size of two million, that examines the difference in cleanliness
between a chain cleaning tool on-the-bike, and a chain being shaken in a
container of solvent off-the-bike, but I confess in advance that there
is probably no such study either completed or in progress, and I know
that Sheldon equivocated when he said "may do a" rather than "does" but
I suspect he did so because of the lack of a study.

I don't know about studies. I don't even bother to change the
degreaser. I run it through for a few minutes, wipe the chain off and
let it dry then oil the chain. Life's too short for much more than that.

I don't think there is one best method for everyone who have different requirements and priorities. I treat my chain and cassette on my commuter bike different than on my high end road bike. Cassette and chain for my commuter cost 50 euro's; for my high end road bike almost 300 euro's. Bikes are ridden in different circumstances and different frequencies


For sure. I got rid of my commuter bike and now only have my road bike.
I use it for commuting. Tarmac Pro 11 speed with SRAM. Pretty high
end for my budget. Chain costs probably 90 dollars (CA). 300 Euros is
a lot.

chain and cassette that is:

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Ca...issset-p49421/


Still more expensive than SRAM:
https://www.bike-components.de/en/SR...issset-p50094/

Mwah.. You have to compare apples with apples:

https://www.bike-components.de/en/SR...t-2016-p52744/


No, I know that SRAM Red is close to your Campy. I was saying mine is
less expensive.

I think SRAM Force is closer to Ultegra although the previous year
Tarmac Pro was Dura Ace so I don't know why this one didn't come with
SRAM Red. I guess Specialized saved those for the SWorks models.

My last rental in Spain was a Tarmac.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/kPuteXKPJHUkPD6QA

Ultegra Di2, some weird crankset, Shimano 105 calipers and low end handlebar, stem and seat post. You get a nice frame but the total picture isn't right.

Lou

On 03/05/2018 3:24 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, May 3, 2018 at 9:44:54 AM UTC-7, duane wrote:
snip

I don't think there is one best method for everyone who have different requirements and priorities. I treat my chain and cassette on my commuter bike different than on my high end road bike. Cassette and chain for my commuter cost 50 euro's; for my high end road bike almost 300 euro's. Bikes are ridden in different circumstances and different frequencies


For sure. I got rid of my commuter bike and now only have my road bike.
I use it for commuting. Tarmac Pro 11 speed with SRAM. Pretty high
end for my budget. Chain costs probably 90 dollars (CA). 300 Euros is
a lot.

Yikes, for commuting? I would not want to submit a Tarmac to the rack carnage in my building -- and the cost of disposables is a lot. OTOH, I rode a racing bike to work once or twice a week for many years because I raced after work, but thinking about bringing my current fancy plastic race bike to work makes me sweat.


We have a place in our production area that they set aside for bikes.
Even added some hangers. No rack carnage.


I rode my beater commuter bike today, even though I had to sprint behind my human motor-pacer son on his Emonda. He can ride whatever he wants because everyone at his place of employment has plenty of inside bike storage, and everyone lives and breathes bikes.


My beater wasn't so bad. 93 Cro Moly Bianchi Volpe. Nice lines as they
say. Not as much fun to ride though. Was mostly on my trainer so I
gave it to someone who needed a bike.

BTW, we rode the MUP drag-strip up the east side of the river, collecting dopey riders who say nothing and just hunker down and draft. We either shake them or indicate in some other way that they should be appropriately social or f*** off. Personally, I wouldn't have the nerve to simply drop in on someone without at least saying, "hey, do you mind if I drop in?" And then I would trade off and do my part. I truly want to slam on my brakes, but I know that would be unChristian.

Like Mr. Horne said, you can't hurt a christian.

When the sun comes out, the number of cyclists in the facilities is mind-boggling, which is a good reason for avoiding them, but the MUP in question is a straight shot downtown with no interruptions and good passing room. OTOH, the west side cycle track is a jumble of signage, train tracks, lights and dopes in 8-ball helmets with ringy-bells. I avoid that or take a Xanax.


On my way in, the sun isn't up yet so there are a few facilities I can
use if the traffic on the road is bad. Speed limit is 20k/h though on
the paths. On my way home, I stick to the roads. I like the bike lanes
though when they aren't in door zones.

On 03/05/2018 3:27 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, May 3, 2018 at 8:55:23 PM UTC+2, duane wrote:
On 03/05/2018 2:32 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, May 3, 2018 at 7:18:26 PM UTC+2, duane wrote:
On 03/05/2018 1:12 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, May 3, 2018 at 6:44:54 PM UTC+2, duane wrote:
On 03/05/2018 12:28 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, May 3, 2018 at 6:16:29 PM UTC+2, duane wrote:
On 03/05/2018 9:01 AM, sms wrote:
On 5/2/2018 3:26 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 2, 2018 at 3:01:21 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 5/1/2018 12:03 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 10:26:57 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 4/29/2018 8:19 AM, wrote:

Another thing that is puzzling is that while you are recommending
this
remarkable foaming stuff and don't actually say so your language
seems
to hint that without foam it just won't penetrate into the chain
links
yet I have worked on chain driven equipment with chains that were
ten
or more years old. Still perfectly usable and no foam at all. Just a
SAE 40 oil bath.

It is easy to penetrate a chain. The lube just has to have a low
enough viscosity that is all. Thats why wax based lubes have some
volatile component. The cheapest is iso propanol. Oil has a low
enough viscosity of his own.

So the question is, is foam really necessary?

Of course not.

The advantage of using a foaming chain lubricant is that, unlike an
oil
bath, you don't have to remove the chain and soak it.

With an oil bath, it does help to heat the oil slightly if you want to
speed up the process.

I have tried doing an "oil bath" with one of those chain cleaning
tools
filled with non-detergent oil instead of solvent. It works, but it's
messy and probably no faster than removing the chain, since you
need to
move the chain through the oil pretty slowly.

With the new thinner chains, you want to minimize removing them unless
they have a connecting link and don't require a rivet extractor.

My goal is to minimize the time and expense of chain maintenance. A
chain cleaning tool used with kerosene or diesel fuel as a solvent,
and
a can of non-O-ring foaming chain lubricant gets the time down to
just a
few minutes. I have no interest in recreational chain maintenance.

Bad news -- most 11sp quick-links are designated single use.
https://www.sram.com/sram/mountain/p...ector-11-speed


Probably to sell them in bulk. Goin' to Joergville for those:
https://www.amazon.com/JooFn-Silver-...ter+link&psc=1


For an Amazon link (no pun intended), all you need is this
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0787Y7WKN.

I guess $2 each is not a big deal, as long as you can keep from losing
them in the garage.

But it's really unnecessary since there's no benefit in removing the
chain for cleaning and lubrication. The chain cleaning devices keep the
chain in motion through the solvent and do a better job of cleaning than
just dropping the chain in a container of solvent and agitating it (I
agree with Sheldon on this!). Foaming chain lubricant is as good as
dropping the chain into a pan of warm non-detergent motor oil. I put a
big plastic pan under the chain to catch any spills
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Plasgad-Black-Large-Concrete-Mixing-Tub-887102C/205451585.

Again, my goal is to minimize the time and effort of chain maintenance
while not sacrificing proper cleaning and lubrication.

Do you use one of those chain cleaning devices.Â* I tried an early
version a million years ago, and it just spewed crap all over and was
a messy nightmare. If I actually remove a chain, I put it into a
patented cottage cheese container with a lid and some solvent and
shake it up.Â* I rarely do that -- and I only do it with the 9 or 10sp
chains.

They have greatly improved. There is still some dripping, but you can
catch it in a pan underneath. The bigger issue is that it takes several
solvent changes before the chain runs clean.

I was talking to a guy at the old Tech Shop who worked at a bicycle shop
that had a chain cleaning system set up that pumped fresh solvent
through from a tank through the device so they didn't have to keep
opening the device to change the solvent. I don't know if this was a
commercially available device to shops, or if they built it themselves.

Removing the chain and shaking it inside a container, cottage cheese or
soda bottle, filled with solvent might not be as effective as the chain
moving through the chain cleaner with the pins and rollers all flexing,
that's the theory.

Sheldon Brown writes, "The on-the-bike system has the advantage that the
cleaning machine flexes the links and spins the rollers. This scrubbing
action may do a better job of cleaning the innards."

I know that someone is going to demand a double-blind study with a
sample size of two million, that examines the difference in cleanliness
between a chain cleaning tool on-the-bike, and a chain being shaken in a
container of solvent off-the-bike, but I confess in advance that there
is probably no such study either completed or in progress, and I know
that Sheldon equivocated when he said "may do a" rather than "does" but
I suspect he did so because of the lack of a study.

I don't know about studies. I don't even bother to change the
degreaser. I run it through for a few minutes, wipe the chain off and
let it dry then oil the chain. Life's too short for much more than that.

I don't think there is one best method for everyone who have different requirements and priorities. I treat my chain and cassette on my commuter bike different than on my high end road bike. Cassette and chain for my commuter cost 50 euro's; for my high end road bike almost 300 euro's. Bikes are ridden in different circumstances and different frequencies


For sure. I got rid of my commuter bike and now only have my road bike.
I use it for commuting. Tarmac Pro 11 speed with SRAM. Pretty high
end for my budget. Chain costs probably 90 dollars (CA). 300 Euros is
a lot.

chain and cassette that is:

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Ca...issset-p49421/


Still more expensive than SRAM:
https://www.bike-components.de/en/SR...issset-p50094/

Mwah.. You have to compare apples with apples:

https://www.bike-components.de/en/SR...t-2016-p52744/


No, I know that SRAM Red is close to your Campy. I was saying mine is
less expensive.

I think SRAM Force is closer to Ultegra although the previous year
Tarmac Pro was Dura Ace so I don't know why this one didn't come with
SRAM Red. I guess Specialized saved those for the SWorks models.

My last rental in Spain was a Tarmac.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/kPuteXKPJHUkPD6QA

Ultegra Di2, some weird crankset, Shimano 105 calipers and low end handlebar, stem and seat post. You get a nice frame but the total picture isn't right.


Looks like Comp or an Elite. Didn't know they come with Di2 though so
maybe not. There are several levels of Tarmac - Comp, Elite, Expert
and Pro. All have mostly the same frame but the rest changes based on
the level. The pro has CF bars and cranks.

Then you have the same more or less under the S-Works tag.

Mine is like this:
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/ta...o-race/p/50916
Except I have a 52/36 mid compact crankset and HED wheels.

On 5/3/2018 9:28 AM, wrote:

snip

I don't think there is one best method for everyone who have different requirements and priorities. I treat my chain and cassette on my commuter bike different than on my high end road bike. Cassette and chain for my commuter cost 50 euro's; for my high end road bike almost 300 euro's. Bikes are ridden in different circumstances and different frequencies

It's not rocket science. You want to get the dirt off and the lubricant
in. There are many ways to accomplish this, of various difficulty and
expense.

Every year at Interbike there must be twenty companies with the latest
and greatest chain cleaner and chain lubricant, but in essence it's all
repackaging of inexpensive solvents and lubricants into small bottles
with fancy names.

For cleaning, a non-water-based solvent like kerosene is as good as any
of these fancy cleaners. Diesel fuel also works fine. Just avoid water
based cleaners like Simple Green.

For lubrication, as long as you're not using a solid lubricant that
doesn't quickly get displaced, or a very thin lubricant that doesn't
stay between pins and rollers, there's no upside in using a high cost
lubricant over standard weight, non-detergent oil (for lubrication by
soaking). For on-bike lubrication, the thin carrier of motorcycle chain
lube allows the lubricant to penetrate between pins and rollers, then
the carrier evaporates.

SAE 30 Chain Oil, 1 gallon, $8.48: https://www.walmart.com/ip/16795133
Kerosene, 1 gallon, $8.75 https://www.walmart.com/ip/51741742
PJ-1 Chain Lube, 17 ounces $18.17 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UKH86Y
Park Chain Cleaner, $24.65 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00094CWA8

I recall the two complaints about chain cleaning tools:
1. They splatter solvent everywhere
2. The solvent gets dirty really fast

The first issue has largely been solved, there is some dripping but
nothing that can't be contained.

The second issue is not an issue at all. You must repeatedly replace the
dirty solvent with clean solvent until it runs clear. A dirty chain
might require five or more solvent changes since the quantity of solvent
in these devices is very small.

Like many people here, I went through the hot paraffin waxing stage.
It's a lot of work for not very good results, and all the experts agree
that it's not really a good idea. I know that now most people mix an
oil-based lubricant in with the wax to solve at least some of the issues.

I wonder what busy bicycle shops use for cleaning and lubricating
chains. I doubt if they remove chains from bikes to clean and lubricate
them. I know one person who told me about a shop he worked at and how
they had a tank of solvent that was pumped into a chain cleaning device
with dirty solvent coming out, but I have never seen such a commercial
product and I think that that shop just modified a regular chain cleaner
in order to save time.

On 04/05/18 02:28, wrote:


I don't think there is one best method for everyone who have
different requirements and priorities. I treat my chain and cassette
on my commuter bike different than on my high end road bike. Cassette
and chain for my commuter cost 50 euro's; for my high end road bike
almost 300 euro's. Bikes are ridden in different circumstances and
different frequencies


Indeed. I couldn't think of anything worse than having to put a drop of
expensive wax in solvent solution on each chain link before each ride.
What a ritual!

--
JS