#41
|
|||
|
|||
rubber compounds
On 2/28/2018 8:25 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 18:22:40 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/28/2018 6:13 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 17:50:00 +0100, Emanuel Berg wrote: Jeff Liebermann wrote: It's like that in any artificial atmosphere environment, such as space capsules, submarines, and well insulated houses. OK, then I'm safe as this building is poorly insulated everywhere and in spots not insulated at all. Sorry, bad choice of words. Instead of insulated, I should have said ventilated. A really well insulated house should not have any air leaks, where cold air from the outside can leak in, and warm air from the inside leak out. The room where I am right now is the best insulated place. Still I have three power oil radiators yet temperature is only 18.0C/22% with -8C outside. 26C temperature differential between outside and inside. Yeah, that's quite good insulation, depending on how much energy you're putting into heating the room. My house is a "summer vacation home" which leaks badly and is poorly insulated. Air leaks everywhere, no insulation in the floor, ceiling or roof. Typical is 10C differential with the wood burner setup for best efficiency and 20C when I have it running like a blast furnace. I considered improving the insulation and leakage situation, but it's cheaper to just burn more firewood. I used the opposite strategy. When we moved into this house, decades ago, I was sure it was inefficient. I immediately invested lots of time and a fair amount of money in sealing against infiltration and adding insulation. I graphed our natural gas usage for years and was very pleased to see the curve descend markedly. About eight years ago, we did a small addition to the house, and switched from the ancient primitive gas furnace to a high efficiency model. Our gas use is now about 1/3 of what it was when we started. I think the weatherproofing was the best investment I could have made. We do have a fireplace, but it too was terribly inefficient, as almost all are. Not long after we moved in I added glass doors, an outside air intake, a blower grate, etc. That changed the fireplace from ineffective to capable of driving us out of the room. The living room can get up to 80 degrees Fahrenheit with a big fire. But we rarely burn wood these days. I'm not fond of slogging outside to carry the stuff in. Someone once write that a fireplace is a very good source of heat as it warms one twice. Once when you chop the wood for the fireplace and once more when you burn the wood :-) In my miserable experiences with cutting wood for heat, a big iron or steel cookstove gives a better return for effort than a fireplace. In Wisconsin anyway. YMMV. p.s. minus 8C is not all that cold (+17F). Uncomfortable but probably not deadly cold. At minus 10~20F you burn a LOT of wood for heat which means a LOT of time cutting wood. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
Ads |
#42
|
|||
|
|||
rubber compounds
On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 20:37:53 -0600, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/28/2018 8:25 PM, John B. wrote: On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 18:22:40 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/28/2018 6:13 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 17:50:00 +0100, Emanuel Berg wrote: Jeff Liebermann wrote: It's like that in any artificial atmosphere environment, such as space capsules, submarines, and well insulated houses. OK, then I'm safe as this building is poorly insulated everywhere and in spots not insulated at all. Sorry, bad choice of words. Instead of insulated, I should have said ventilated. A really well insulated house should not have any air leaks, where cold air from the outside can leak in, and warm air from the inside leak out. The room where I am right now is the best insulated place. Still I have three power oil radiators yet temperature is only 18.0C/22% with -8C outside. 26C temperature differential between outside and inside. Yeah, that's quite good insulation, depending on how much energy you're putting into heating the room. My house is a "summer vacation home" which leaks badly and is poorly insulated. Air leaks everywhere, no insulation in the floor, ceiling or roof. Typical is 10C differential with the wood burner setup for best efficiency and 20C when I have it running like a blast furnace. I considered improving the insulation and leakage situation, but it's cheaper to just burn more firewood. I used the opposite strategy. When we moved into this house, decades ago, I was sure it was inefficient. I immediately invested lots of time and a fair amount of money in sealing against infiltration and adding insulation. I graphed our natural gas usage for years and was very pleased to see the curve descend markedly. About eight years ago, we did a small addition to the house, and switched from the ancient primitive gas furnace to a high efficiency model. Our gas use is now about 1/3 of what it was when we started. I think the weatherproofing was the best investment I could have made. We do have a fireplace, but it too was terribly inefficient, as almost all are. Not long after we moved in I added glass doors, an outside air intake, a blower grate, etc. That changed the fireplace from ineffective to capable of driving us out of the room. The living room can get up to 80 degrees Fahrenheit with a big fire. But we rarely burn wood these days. I'm not fond of slogging outside to carry the stuff in. Someone once write that a fireplace is a very good source of heat as it warms one twice. Once when you chop the wood for the fireplace and once more when you burn the wood :-) In my miserable experiences with cutting wood for heat, a big iron or steel cookstove gives a better return for effort than a fireplace. In Wisconsin anyway. YMMV. p.s. minus 8C is not all that cold (+17F). Uncomfortable but probably not deadly cold. At minus 10~20F you burn a LOT of wood for heat which means a LOT of time cutting wood. A friend, who had a house in town, built a "Mountain Cabin" and raved about the clean air, scent of the trees, and all the usual city folk raves when they go to the mountains. In fact he liked it so much that he decided to spend the winter there. I asked him about the heating system and he told me, in some detail, about the fireplace. I told him that if he was going to heat the cabin through the winter with a fireplace he needed a lot of wood. It turned out that his "plenty of wood" lasted for only a couple of months but luckily a warm spell came along and he was able to get out to the main roads and back to the "town house" and since then he hasn't made mention of wintering in the mountains :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
#43
|
|||
|
|||
rubber compounds
AMuzi wrote:
In my miserable experiences with cutting wood for heat, a big iron or steel cookstove gives a better return for effort than a fireplace. In Wisconsin anyway. YMMV. p.s. minus 8C is not all that cold (+17F). Uncomfortable but probably not deadly cold. At minus 10~20F you burn a LOT of wood for heat which means a LOT of time cutting wood. -8C isn't cold as long as you move, or do manual things with logs or big things like that. If you fiddle with small tools and keys tho it can be very unpleasant quickly. As for firewood it is virtually impossible to be cold while chopping, which is great fun and relaxing/empowering body&mind. Boxers do it prior to the title fight to build up fitness/testosterone/confidence. Equally true is that it (wood) burns rather quickly. Nowadays I hear there are stoves that are more economic and radiate heat in another way than the old solutions, but I guess there is no getting around a lot of wood is needed every day. -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 |
#44
|
|||
|
|||
rubber compounds
John B. wrote:
Someone once write that a fireplace is a very good source of heat as it warms one twice. Once when you chop the wood for the fireplace and once more when you burn the wood :-) When you feel totally miserable and weak and think it'll take like two hours to get wood, get a fire, get the glow, get the sausages out of the package, no I'm just kidding, to do two sausages, you think "it'll take two hours to do and two minutes to eat, it isn't worth it". But it always is and afterwards you feel silly to have been that pathetic only two hours ago -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 |
#45
|
|||
|
|||
rubber compounds
On Thu, 01 Mar 2018 00:59:07 +0100, Emanuel Berg
wrote: Jeff Liebermann wrote: 26C temperature differential between outside and inside. Yeah, that's quite good insulation, depending on how much energy you're putting into heating the room. Well, it sure doesn't feel warm and everything I touch is/feels cold. Now its 17.5C/22% with -9C outside. Feeling cold or condensation on an inside wall is a sure sign of insufficient insulation. It's much like a refrigerator, where inadequate insulation is easily detected by the surface being rather colder than the ambient air. If you have money, you might want to invest in an IR camera, probably from FLIR, and look for leaks. I'm cheap, so I have one of these: https://www.blackanddecker.com/product-repository/products/2015/02/01/03/14/tld100 which will detect a 1F, 5F, or 10 degree temperature difference from a reference temperature which changes the color of the illuminating target LED: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=TLD100 About $35. I've been playing with it and a digital camera and "painting" the 3 color LED while moving the color spot around the room. Sorry, no photos yet. Anyway, it should help you find any leaks. However, if the entire wall is one big thermal leak, there's not much that can be done. I have two oil filled radiators that are 1500W by the windows, and one 525W under the bed. You obviously live in a colder climate than central California (Monterey Bay area). My wood burner: http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/slides/wood-burner.html The pot on the stove boils off some water to increase indoor humidity. I can usually tell if the water has boiled off because my mouth and nose dry out. My firewood "processing" equipment: http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/chainsaw/slides/chain-saws-02.html I also fix chain saws on the side for friends, neighbors, and extra cash. However, the last few years, I've gotten busy and lazy and purchased my firewood. $300/cord for 16" super-dry (2 years) oak and madrone. I usually burn 1.5 to 2 cords per year. I fired up the Bendix Psychron 566 psychrometer and made some measurements: Dry Wet RH Outdoors, just before rain. 10.0 9.5 93.9% Near wood burner. 15.5 11.0 57.1% Near wood burner (4 hr later) 18.5 11.5 41.3% Downstairs shop, not heated. 9.5 6.5 64.4% Humidity calculator. Atmospheric pressure is currently 30.15 in. http://www.ringbell.co.uk/info/humid.htm The rather high 93.9% RH outside is thanks to a small storm that just drifted inland. The definition of rain is when the air can't hold any more water and unloads the excess onto the ground, usually due to a drop in temperature after sunset. In other words: rain = 100% humidity The 57.1% near the wood burner is actually higher than usual because I also have dinner cooking in the adjacent kitchen. The combination of boiling water from both the tea pot on the wood burner, and the kitchen causes the high RH. After dinner, and after I allowing the water to boil away, the RH dropped to 41.3%. If it wasn't raining outside, and the house didn't leak air as badly, it would probably drop even lower. It took about 1 minute to make each of these measurements using the motorized psychrometer. If I tried to do it with a capacitive sensor found in most home weather stations, it would have probably taken 30 mins or longer. Stay tuned to this thread for yet another exciting topic drift. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#46
|
|||
|
|||
rubber compounds
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
I fired up the Bendix Psychron 566 psychrometer and made some measurements: Dry Wet RH Outdoors, just before rain. 10.0 9.5 93.9% Near wood burner. 15.5 11.0 57.1% Near wood burner (4 hr later) 18.5 11.5 41.3% Downstairs shop, not heated. 9.5 6.5 64.4% It took about 1 minute to make each of these measurements using the motorized psychrometer. If I tried to do it with a capacitive sensor found in most home weather stations, it would have probably taken 30 mins or longer. Stay tuned to this thread for yet another exciting topic drift. SCNR: Wanna comment on the theory about modern lower-mass (iirc) sensors in weather stations contributing to measuring higher global temperatures? |
#47
|
|||
|
|||
rubber compounds
On 2/28/2018 9:37 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 18:22:40 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: We do have a fireplace, but it too was terribly inefficient, as almost all are. Not long after we moved in I added glass doors, an outside air intake, a blower grate, etc. That changed the fireplace from ineffective to capable of driving us out of the room. The living room can get up to 80 degrees Fahrenheit with a big fire. But we rarely burn wood these days. I'm not fond of slogging outside to carry the stuff in. In my miserable experiences with cutting wood for heat, a big iron or steel cookstove gives a better return for effort than a fireplace. In Wisconsin anyway. YMMV. An ordinary fireplace is usually a net loss for heating. To prevent smoke pouring into the room, lots of room air has to be sucked up the chimney along with the smoke and most of the heat. That lost room air gets replaced by frigid outside air seeping in all around the house. This amounts to a convective loss that's far bigger than the radiant heat gain from the fire itself - although that radiant heat does feel nice. Containing the fire in a stove allows much less intake of room air, and may give a lot more surface area for radiant heating. In our living room, we kept the fireplace (vs. stove) look both for aesthetics and because it's a tiny room. But all the combustion air comes from a box around a basement window, piped in through the ash cleanout pit. The glass doors allow that to work. And the chimney damper is easily actuated by a couple chains. It controls the air flow, thus the size of the blaze. I wish the blower grate were quieter, but fixing that is too far down my project list. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#48
|
|||
|
|||
rubber compounds
On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 09:23:27 +0100, Sepp Ruf
wrote: Jeff Liebermann wrote: I fired up the Bendix Psychron 566 psychrometer and made some measurements: Dry Wet RH Outdoors, just before rain. 10.0 9.5 93.9% Near wood burner. 15.5 11.0 57.1% Near wood burner (4 hr later) 18.5 11.5 41.3% Downstairs shop, not heated. 9.5 6.5 64.4% It took about 1 minute to make each of these measurements using the motorized psychrometer. If I tried to do it with a capacitive sensor found in most home weather stations, it would have probably taken 30 mins or longer. Stay tuned to this thread for yet another exciting topic drift. SCNR: Wanna comment on the theory about modern lower-mass (iirc) sensors in weather stations contributing to measuring higher global temperatures? No, but I have a few observations, theories, and guesses: 1. All discussions eventually drift to a global warming discussion. Everything we do, buy, or use affects global warming. 2. The energy consumed by manufacturing and transporting energy saving devices sold to combat global warming is more than those devices can produce. 3. Home weather stations are reasonably accurate. However, none of the buyers of home weather stations know anything about siting (where to locate a weather station). Therefore, all home weather stations are horribly inaccurate. Seen any 10 meter high poles for anemometers in any residential installations? https://www.acurite.com/learn/installation/acurite-sensor-siting 4. Nobody calibrates home weather stations. Select your home area on Wundermap and notice the wide variations in literally every measurement: https://www.wunderground.com/wundermap 5. Weather forecasting is inaccurate and closely related to magic. However, by massaging the data, climate forecasting has become increasingly more accurate and is somehow related to science. 6. Etc... The thermal mass of most sensors doesn't really have a huge effect on overall measurements. Temperature, atmospheric pressure, humidity, and rain gauges change slowly enough that any thermal lag caused by a sensor mass change would be averaged over the sampling period. Certainly, there's no skew towards warming as none of these sensors dissipate any power. The same number of picowatts dissipated in a sensor would result in higher temperatures, but that's not the way most sensors work. They simply don't dissipate any heat. On the other foot, wind direction and speed indicators require a fast response time. To obtain accurate gust and direction indications, they need to respond quickly to changes. However, these sensors also do not dissipate any heat, and are therefore not going to change their readings with size. A better accusation is the change in the reflectivity of the paint used in Stevenson shields used to house weather stations. https://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/01/14/a-typical-day-in-the-stevenson-screen-paint-test/ https://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/06/29/aging-weather-stations-contribute-to-high-temperature-records/ Work beckons... more topic drift later, if you can stand it. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#49
|
|||
|
|||
rubber compounds
On 2/28/2018 11:59 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
My firewood "processing" equipment: http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/chainsaw/slides/chain-saws-02.html I also fix chain saws on the side for friends, neighbors, and extra cash... Stay tuned to this thread for yet another exciting topic drift. With all those chainsaws, I can't wait to hear about your juggling skills! -- - Frank Krygowski |
#50
|
|||
|
|||
rubber compounds
On 3/1/2018 12:15 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
4. Nobody calibrates home weather stations. Select your home area on Wundermap and notice the wide variations in literally every measurement: https://www.wunderground.com/wundermap I'd love to calibrate, but I doubt it's possible. Probably 15 or 20 years ago, for Christmas I was given a basic Oregon Scientific weather unit with a remote, radio-linked thermometer. That went on the outside north wall of the house and gave obviously better readings than the analog unit on the south side of the house, even though the latter is under the porch roof. But last year, the Oregon Scientific started overestimating the temperature by something like 50 degrees. (But it was just as confident as ever, down to a tenth of a degree!) I did all the electronic resets, I opened the remote looking for problems, I looked for calibration info online, etc. All failed. And I couldn't find replacement units online. So now there's a good old analog thermometer mounted outside a north side window. The Di2 analogy is left as an exercise for the reader. ;-) -- - Frank Krygowski |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
New rubber | Dan O | Techniques | 0 | September 12th 10 06:36 AM |
Going Rubber | Det-riot | Unicycling | 8 | January 11th 07 06:19 PM |
Going Rubber | Borgschulze | Unicycling | 1 | January 11th 07 02:45 AM |
Anti-Seizing compounds | Eddie Nosdtromo | Techniques | 6 | March 24th 05 02:30 AM |
Bike Sheltesrs / Compounds | daNo | General | 5 | March 8th 05 06:23 AM |