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The death of rim brakes?



 
 
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  #161  
Old March 18th 19, 09:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
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Posts: 6,010
Default The death of rim brakes?

On 19/3/19 6:32 am, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-14 18:36, James wrote:


Now I use a 25 mm rear tyre (that measures 27 mm), and to remove the
wheel I must release the brake lever (Campagnolo) or deflate the tyre.
With a 23 mm tyre I don't need to do that.* With a disc brake I don't
need to fiddle with the brakes regardless of tyre width.* That's a
benefit.


That I don't understand. Even the early 80's Shimano 600 set on my road
bike has little release handles on each caliper to get out a 25mm+ wheel
with lots of room to spare.


The Campagnolo calipers on my bike don't have a quick release, but there
is a button on the lever that has the same effect.


In fact sometimes when you go to shove a wheel in with rim brakes and
centre or dual pivot callipers, you can catch the calliper and move it
from centred.* Then you have to fix that or have rubbing brakes. That
doesn't happen with discs.


Though a disc does get bent easily and you have to pay more attention
when re-installing a wheel. Fixing is easy as well as long as you do not
touch the disc with bare hands.


I haven't tried bending a disc, but it doesn't look easy to me. You
must be very rough.


Hydraulic disc callipers are self adjusting like car hydraulic disc
callipers. ...



Ahm, sort of. The reservoirs are typically a bit small to accommodate
all the wear. I have to top off with DOT-4 at times which is nasty stuff
when it gets onto clothes and things.


Shimano hydraulics use mineral oil. Not nasty like some other brands.


*Cable actuated disc callipers are not.* Benefit and detriment.


Cable calipers are very easy to adjust, just turn a knurled trim knob. A
downside of many is that they only have one moving piston while the
opposite piston is fixed. The rotor flexes to the side every time you
brake. Beats me why they design them that way.


"Some mechanical disc brakes, such as the TRP Spyre, work by pushing
both brake pads simultaneously against the rotor. "

https://cyclingtips.com/2018/05/complete-faq-to-road-disc-brakes/

And for Frank, "Disc brakes have been around on bicycles for a decent
amount of time – as early as the 50s, in fact."

--
JS
Ads
  #162  
Old March 18th 19, 09:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 4,240
Default The death of rim brakes?

On Monday, March 18, 2019 at 1:57:04 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, March 18, 2019 at 3:32:49 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped

I was sold on disc brakes after about five seconds of use. When I almost
flew over the handlebar of my new MTB during a test ride in the LBS
parking lot, despite having pulled the handle with just two fingers. The
rear of the MTB actually bucked upwards. It felt like having
power-assist brakes. Woohoo!

Snipped

I do. Should I ever need a new road bike it will have discs or I won't buy.


--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


Back around 1982 I bought a Velo Sport Columbus SL Dura Ace AX equipped bicycle and on the ride home was getting squeezed into parked cars by a streetcar because the road was narrowing quite a bit. I hit the brakes and the rear wheel lifted quite a bit before I released the front brake lever and hit the brakes again. That was with the AX caliper brake. I've always loved the braking of those brakes.


I rode rim brakes over the weekend and hydraulic discs to work -- on two dry and lovely days, and the difference between the two is/was negligible. My rim brakes are direct mount and very powerful.

On Saturday, I rode with my son who has rim brakes and CF wheels. He stopped fine but made a lot of noise. He's going to buy some aluminum wheels. If I had CF wheels, I'd definitely go for discs on my race bike just to avoid the issues with CF and rim brakes.

Discs certainly are not all upside. I have one caliper with a leak at the fill port. I've already replaced the internal seals and the seal on the port stopper screw and can't figure out why it continues to leak. I'll throw on a replacement and then see if I can figure it out. Never hurts to have a spare.

A bleed kit is reasonably cheap off eBay. With the Shimano brakes, though, the mineral oil is ridiculously expensive in small quantities but pretty reasonable if you buy in bulk-ish liter amounts. Pads are expensive for OE finned models but cheaper un-finned knock-offs are available. Bleeding/installing discs is a bit of a plumbing job but nowhere near as irritating as running any cable/wire through a modern "everything's inside" frame. It is more work than a cable rim brake.

Discs are totally unnecessary for a dry weather road bike, and although I feel like I made a mistake buying a rim brake "racing" bike, it is only because of marketing shame -- I didn't get the latest and greatest. I love the bike and don't ride it in the rain. All my rain bikes have discs. They just stop better in the rain and avoid the rim-lathe effect. I ended up with discs because I was in a position to buy a new bike(s). I didn't run out and buy them just because.

-- Jay Beattie.





  #163  
Old March 18th 19, 09:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,260
Default The death of rim brakes?

On Monday, March 18, 2019 at 2:45:43 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 19/3/19 6:32 am, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-14 18:36, James wrote:


Now I use a 25 mm rear tyre (that measures 27 mm), and to remove the
wheel I must release the brake lever (Campagnolo) or deflate the tyre.
With a 23 mm tyre I don't need to do that.* With a disc brake I don't
need to fiddle with the brakes regardless of tyre width.* That's a
benefit.


That I don't understand. Even the early 80's Shimano 600 set on my road
bike has little release handles on each caliper to get out a 25mm+ wheel
with lots of room to spare.


The Campagnolo calipers on my bike don't have a quick release, but there
is a button on the lever that has the same effect.


In fact sometimes when you go to shove a wheel in with rim brakes and
centre or dual pivot callipers, you can catch the calliper and move it
from centred.* Then you have to fix that or have rubbing brakes. That
doesn't happen with discs.


Though a disc does get bent easily and you have to pay more attention
when re-installing a wheel. Fixing is easy as well as long as you do not
touch the disc with bare hands.


I haven't tried bending a disc, but it doesn't look easy to me. You
must be very rough.


Hydraulic disc callipers are self adjusting like car hydraulic disc
callipers. ...



Ahm, sort of. The reservoirs are typically a bit small to accommodate
all the wear. I have to top off with DOT-4 at times which is nasty stuff
when it gets onto clothes and things.


Shimano hydraulics use mineral oil. Not nasty like some other brands.


*Cable actuated disc callipers are not.* Benefit and detriment.

  #164  
Old March 18th 19, 10:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,828
Default The death of rim brakes?

On 2019-03-18 14:45, James wrote:
On 19/3/19 6:32 am, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-14 18:36, James wrote:


Now I use a 25 mm rear tyre (that measures 27 mm), and to remove the
wheel I must release the brake lever (Campagnolo) or deflate the tyre.
With a 23 mm tyre I don't need to do that. With a disc brake I don't
need to fiddle with the brakes regardless of tyre width. That's a
benefit.


That I don't understand. Even the early 80's Shimano 600 set on my
road bike has little release handles on each caliper to get out a
25mm+ wheel with lots of room to spare.


The Campagnolo calipers on my bike don't have a quick release, but there
is a button on the lever that has the same effect.


That's ok if it isn't a cumbersome process. Having switched to thick
tubes and tire liners I never get flats anymore so the only time I take
out a wheel is when the tire is worn down or I need to install a new
cassette.


In fact sometimes when you go to shove a wheel in with rim brakes and
centre or dual pivot callipers, you can catch the calliper and move it
from centred. Then you have to fix that or have rubbing brakes. That
doesn't happen with discs.


Though a disc does get bent easily and you have to pay more attention
when re-installing a wheel. Fixing is easy as well as long as you do
not touch the disc with bare hands.


I haven't tried bending a disc, but it doesn't look easy to me. You
must be very rough.


You have to be gentle when bending one back. That can also become
necessary after crashes or if an obstacle got in the way while laying
down a bicycle in a truck bed. The LBS owner where I bought the MTB
showed me how it's done.


Hydraulic disc callipers are self adjusting like car hydraulic disc
callipers. ...



Ahm, sort of. The reservoirs are typically a bit small to accommodate
all the wear. I have to top off with DOT-4 at times which is nasty
stuff when it gets onto clothes and things.


Shimano hydraulics use mineral oil. Not nasty like some other brands.


Yep, debating whether to switch to Shimano when the Promax brakes are
worn. However, they refuse to give up, they are surprisingly tough.


Cable actuated disc callipers are not. Benefit and detriment.


Cable calipers are very easy to adjust, just turn a knurled trim knob.
A downside of many is that they only have one moving piston while the
opposite piston is fixed. The rotor flexes to the side every time you
brake. Beats me why they design them that way.


"Some mechanical disc brakes, such as the TRP Spyre, work by pushing
both brake pads simultaneously against the rotor. "

https://cyclingtips.com/2018/05/complete-faq-to-road-disc-brakes/


Yes, but the caliper alone will set you back almost $100. You can get a
good quality complete front or rear hydraulic setup for that kind of money.

https://www.amazon.com/TRP-Spyre-Mec.../dp/B00SUAANMW

Most mechnical disc brakes that I've seen only move one piston.


And for Frank, "Disc brakes have been around on bicycles for a decent
amount of time – as early as the 50s, in fact."


I haven't seen any before 2000. A technology is only really entrenched
if it made it into the mainstream at least to some extent.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #165  
Old March 18th 19, 10:40 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 4,524
Default The death of rim brakes?

On Monday, March 18, 2019 at 5:22:16 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-18 13:57, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, March 18, 2019 at 3:32:49 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: Snipped

I was sold on disc brakes after about five seconds of use. When I
almost flew over the handlebar of my new MTB during a test ride in
the LBS parking lot, despite having pulled the handle with just two
fingers. The rear of the MTB actually bucked upwards. It felt like
having power-assist brakes. Woohoo!

Snipped

I do. Should I ever need a new road bike it will have discs or I
won't buy.


-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


Back around 1982 I bought a Velo Sport Columbus SL Dura Ace AX
equipped bicycle and on the ride home was getting squeezed into
parked cars by a streetcar because the road was narrowing quite a
bit. I hit the brakes and the rear wheel lifted quite a bit before I
released the front brake lever and hit the brakes again. That was
with the AX caliper brake. I've always loved the braking of those
brakes.


Now try the same on a rainy day. Yeah, a rim brake can still lift the
rear but it could be 1-2sec too late. I don't want that.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


On a wet day my tire loses traction before the wheel lifts. Braking is darn near instantaneous. Even when I tour mining/logging roads in the rain I don't have problems braking. Again the limit is the tire grip on the surface or the surface itself giving way under the locked wheel. My mining/logging road tours are done with an MTB with cantilever brakes.

Cheers
  #166  
Old March 18th 19, 11:50 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,260
Default The death of rim brakes?

On Monday, March 18, 2019 at 2:47:37 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, March 18, 2019 at 1:57:04 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, March 18, 2019 at 3:32:49 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped

I was sold on disc brakes after about five seconds of use. When I almost
flew over the handlebar of my new MTB during a test ride in the LBS
parking lot, despite having pulled the handle with just two fingers. The
rear of the MTB actually bucked upwards. It felt like having
power-assist brakes. Woohoo!

Snipped

I do. Should I ever need a new road bike it will have discs or I won't buy.


--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


Back around 1982 I bought a Velo Sport Columbus SL Dura Ace AX equipped bicycle and on the ride home was getting squeezed into parked cars by a streetcar because the road was narrowing quite a bit. I hit the brakes and the rear wheel lifted quite a bit before I released the front brake lever and hit the brakes again. That was with the AX caliper brake. I've always loved the braking of those brakes.


I rode rim brakes over the weekend and hydraulic discs to work -- on two dry and lovely days, and the difference between the two is/was negligible. My rim brakes are direct mount and very powerful.

On Saturday, I rode with my son who has rim brakes and CF wheels. He stopped fine but made a lot of noise. He's going to buy some aluminum wheels. If I had CF wheels, I'd definitely go for discs on my race bike just to avoid the issues with CF and rim brakes.

Discs certainly are not all upside. I have one caliper with a leak at the fill port. I've already replaced the internal seals and the seal on the port stopper screw and can't figure out why it continues to leak. I'll throw on a replacement and then see if I can figure it out. Never hurts to have a spare.

A bleed kit is reasonably cheap off eBay. With the Shimano brakes, though, the mineral oil is ridiculously expensive in small quantities but pretty reasonable if you buy in bulk-ish liter amounts. Pads are expensive for OE finned models but cheaper un-finned knock-offs are available. Bleeding/installing discs is a bit of a plumbing job but nowhere near as irritating as running any cable/wire through a modern "everything's inside" frame. It is more work than a cable rim brake.

Discs are totally unnecessary for a dry weather road bike, and although I feel like I made a mistake buying a rim brake "racing" bike, it is only because of marketing shame -- I didn't get the latest and greatest. I love the bike and don't ride it in the rain. All my rain bikes have discs. They just stop better in the rain and avoid the rim-lathe effect. I ended up with discs because I was in a position to buy a new bike(s). I didn't run out and buy them just because.

-- Jay Beattie.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87MsGZ8fP9k
  #167  
Old March 19th 19, 07:46 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
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Posts: 805
Default The death of rim brakes?

On Mon, 18 Mar 2019 13:57:02 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, March 18, 2019 at 3:32:49 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped

I was sold on disc brakes after about five seconds of use. When I almost
flew over the handlebar of my new MTB during a test ride in the LBS
parking lot, despite having pulled the handle with just two fingers. The
rear of the MTB actually bucked upwards. It felt like having
power-assist brakes. Woohoo!

Snipped

I do. Should I ever need a new road bike it will have discs or I won't buy.


--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


Back around 1982 I bought a Velo Sport Columbus SL Dura Ace AX equipped bicycle and on the ride home was getting squeezed into parked cars by a streetcar because the road was narrowing quite a bit. I hit the brakes and the rear wheel lifted quite a bit before I released the front brake lever and hit the brakes again. That was with the AX caliper brake. I've always loved the braking of those brakes.

Cheers


Not to disparage Dura Ace equipment but I have one bike with a set of
Tektro brakes and on another a set of Shimano Sora (low end) brakes
and both stop "Rit Now". It is quite noticeable that the brake arms
that mount the pad are very short in comparison to other models. In
fact on one bike I had to mount the rear brake on the front side of
the brake bridge in order for the pads to reach the rims.

I've come to believe that the important factor in brakes is the
mechanical advantage of the cable arms to the pad arms.

--
Cheers,
John B.


  #168  
Old March 19th 19, 11:34 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,524
Default The death of rim brakes?

On Tuesday, March 19, 2019 at 3:46:35 AM UTC-4, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 18 Mar 2019 13:57:02 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, March 18, 2019 at 3:32:49 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped

I was sold on disc brakes after about five seconds of use. When I almost
flew over the handlebar of my new MTB during a test ride in the LBS
parking lot, despite having pulled the handle with just two fingers. The
rear of the MTB actually bucked upwards. It felt like having
power-assist brakes. Woohoo!

Snipped

I do. Should I ever need a new road bike it will have discs or I won't buy.


--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


Back around 1982 I bought a Velo Sport Columbus SL Dura Ace AX equipped bicycle and on the ride home was getting squeezed into parked cars by a streetcar because the road was narrowing quite a bit. I hit the brakes and the rear wheel lifted quite a bit before I released the front brake lever and hit the brakes again. That was with the AX caliper brake. I've always loved the braking of those brakes.

Cheers


Not to disparage Dura Ace equipment but I have one bike with a set of
Tektro brakes and on another a set of Shimano Sora (low end) brakes
and both stop "Rit Now". It is quite noticeable that the brake arms
that mount the pad are very short in comparison to other models. In
fact on one bike I had to mount the rear brake on the front side of
the brake bridge in order for the pads to reach the rims.

I've come to believe that the important factor in brakes is the
mechanical advantage of the cable arms to the pad arms.

--
Cheers,
John B.


The Dura Ace AX brake calipers are an interesting design.

Here's an image, fund online, of them.

https://www.seabasscycles.co.uk/shimano-brake-calipers

Cheers
  #170  
Old March 19th 19, 05:53 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 1,260
Default The death of rim brakes?

On Tuesday, March 19, 2019 at 9:24:16 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 3/10/2019 6:34 AM, wrote:
I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim brakes a dead deal.

Deacon Mark


In 1975 JC Penney sponsored a cross-country bicycle tour to promote
their new disc brake-equipped bicycle, apparently made by Huffy. If not
for JC Penney, we'd all still be riding bicycle with rim brakes or
coaster brakes. Video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k10233DdFi0.
Note the lack of helmets and the clothing.

Right after JC Penney came out with their disc brake-equipped bicycle,
Sears came out with their hydraulic brake-equipped bicycle. Sears and
Penney's led us into the age of disc brakes and hydraulic brakes.

JC Penney disc=brake rear wheel:
http://velobase.com/CompImages/Brakes/001CD095-5B7A-4C29-BE06-6F9D357D01CD.jpeg
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Eqqa0sg9HNo/hqdefault.jpg

Sears hydraulic brake-equipped bicycle: https://goo.gl/images/ymHkCz


3700 miles with unpadded shorts? I think that we can all ride a bike without falling off of it simply by not riding over our heads so helmets aren't something that would have been the first thing on their minds - but NO PADDED SHORTS??????
 




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