Damned Central Heating!

On Sun, 24 Mar 2019 18:59:20 -0700, sms wrote:

On 3/20/2019 3:44 PM, news18 wrote:

snip

Wood is a preferrable heating method to gas to electric. Since our wood
heater almost needs replacement, we did look at pellets, but limited
supply leading to cost gouging was a concern, plus modern heaters seem
to be tin plate these days.

In California, on "Spare the Air" days it is forbidden to use wood or
pellets for heating. "The rule prohibits burning any solid fuel,
including pellets and manufactured logs."

At least human lungs have evolved to have some measure of resiliance to
wood fire products. it would bbe far better if they banned ICE vehicles
for the day as their products cause very serious health problem.

On Mon, 25 Mar 2019 20:07:08 -0700, Bob F wrote:

On 3/20/2019 12:04 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, March 20, 2019 at 11:09:26 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 3/19/2019 4:04 PM, Joerg wrote:

snip

We rarely use it anymore due to the price-gouging in the propane
industry. We switched to cord wood and pellets.

No natural gas in your area? Odd for California housing developments.

There's a big move now to all-electric since the electricity can be
generated without the use of fossil fuels.

I don't know where you get that idea. Those new windmills are more than 500 meters high and they will not start turning in anything short of hurricane force winds so the "generator" is driven like a motor to keep them rotating. Any that you see not turning are turned off and may be broken. The results of all of this is those windmills have a net power DRAIN in most areas because while they generate a good deal of power when the wind is above 20 mph that is rare.

Solar farms are almost as bad. They virtually kill the environment beneath them and they have efficiency of only 22% or so when new. They age 4 times faster than is claimed and if you do not keep them clean they can fail faster than that. At 22% efficiency at high noon when the sun is directly overhead that means that they can only generate 220 watts per square meter.

A friend was planning on putting solar cells on his home in Phoenix and dragged me off to a solar show. The salesmen were taunting 20 year lifespan. I talked to the engineers and they told me soto vox that they were 5 years to 50% output if the surfaces were cleaned all the time. And this is only under perfect conditions. They are only good for output on 2 hours either side of local true noon. Any clouds greatly reduce their output.

So virtually all of that crap about "green energy" is just that. They cause 100 times more environmental damage than they supposedly prevent. Birds cannot judge a windmill speed because the ends of the blades are traveling at 200 mph. The sound from the rotating blades even being driven via motor power confuse bats and when under full wind drive make super-sonic sounds so loud that they permanently deafen the insect eating bats that are environmentally important.

All of this is well known and there are plenty of papers written on these subjects. Why does the media avoid these at all costs and continue to promote the fraud of climate change when the climate has been more or less stable since the end of the Little Ice Age?


There is one thing I notice about those who brag about using solar
power or windmills to generate electricity. They all, every one, have
a small diesel generator out back of the house :-)
--

Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 25 Mar 2019 22:59:48 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/25/2019 8:43 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 25 Mar 2019 16:35:36 -0500, AMuzi wrote:


The voters have spoken and deserve every bit of it.

Winston Churchill once said that "The best argument against democracy
is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

And someone described the democratic system as being one where the
voters get the leadership that they deserved :-)

It may be that the main advantage of democracy is a lower chance of
violent revolt. Those who are terminally dissatisfied with the
politicians in power usually realize they are in the minority.

You mean like the war the U.S. fought from 1861 - 1865?
--

Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 03:31:34 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Mar 2019 18:59:20 -0700, sms wrote:

On 3/20/2019 3:44 PM, news18 wrote:

snip

Wood is a preferrable heating method to gas to electric. Since our wood
heater almost needs replacement, we did look at pellets, but limited
supply leading to cost gouging was a concern, plus modern heaters seem
to be tin plate these days.

In California, on "Spare the Air" days it is forbidden to use wood or
pellets for heating. "The rule prohibits burning any solid fuel,
including pellets and manufactured logs."

At least human lungs have evolved to have some measure of resiliance to
wood fire products. it would bbe far better if they banned ICE vehicles
for the day as their products cause very serious health problem.

Ah but internal combustion powered machinery is necessary to maintain
life in the U.S.

I once commented to a bloke on the Internet who was complaining about
having to drive his kids to school that why didn't he have the kids
walk to school and he replied something to the effect that they
couldn't walk as it was too far, a whole mile to school. I replied
that I had walked a mile, or more, to school from the time I was in
the first grade and he didn't believe it.

--

Cheers,

John B.

On 3/25/2019 11:41 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 25 Mar 2019 22:59:48 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/25/2019 8:43 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 25 Mar 2019 16:35:36 -0500, AMuzi wrote:


The voters have spoken and deserve every bit of it.

Winston Churchill once said that "The best argument against democracy
is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

And someone described the democratic system as being one where the
voters get the leadership that they deserved :-)

It may be that the main advantage of democracy is a lower chance of
violent revolt. Those who are terminally dissatisfied with the
politicians in power usually realize they are in the minority.

You mean like the war the U.S. fought from 1861 - 1865?

The results of that one may have emphasized my point.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/25/2019 11:28 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/25/2019 2:33 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, March 23, 2019 at 4:09:26 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-20 09:42, wrote:
On Tuesday, March 19, 2019 at 1:28:01 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-19 11:17, wrote:
A couple of months ago when it was coldest my central heating
stopped igniting. My impression from the sounds it was making was
that the thermocouple was bad or the pilot light that would be
ignited was dirty or some such so that the flame wasn't close
enough to the thermocouple of inform it that there was a real
flame there and turn the full flame on.

The repairman came out and said that the pilot and thermocouple
was OK and changed out the main gas valve. The heater appeared to
work for six weeks and then as the weather got cold again started
not lighting again.

The company sent another repairman out and he said that it was
the main control board and replaced that.

I am now $1,600 into "repairs" and sure enough - the heater
isn't lighting still.

It would appear to me at this time that there is nothing more to
replace but the pilot tube and the thermocouple. So I wonder how
to convince the repairman that there is something wrong with one
of those?


We had that happen a long time ago and the cause was the
electronic controller board. The central propane furnace would go
VROOOOP .. PHUTAH-PHUT ... RUMBLE ... VROOOOOOOOOP ... and never
stayed on anymore.

When the technician came out he exclaimed "Oh look, an old Fenwal
controller board!", saying he was amazed that it lasted this long.
He switched it out against one from another manufacturer and all
was well.

I asked him to leave the old board and when probing it I found that
the triac that controls the main burner valve had gone partially
bad so it wouldn't be able to send a full current through the valve
solenoid anymore. Could have kicked myself because instead of
paying a few hundred Dollars I could have gotten one of those triac
for a couple of Dollars and replaced it. If these triac are on a
separate driver board then check that.

There is also a suction sensor, for example a flap in the intake
stream that operates a signaling switch. If that got crudded up it
might at times falsely signal a failing air draft and that would
cut the main valve.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/




when the technician came out again the board was showing errors of
"too many tries". He pulled the connector off and spread the male
connector so that it would make better connection to the main gas
valve and it appears to work perfectly now. Though when the main gas
valve was replaced 3 months ago it all worked fine until recently.


The first technician could have diagnosed that easily by measuring how
many volts are actually arriving at the solenoid. This is the first
order of business for me when, for example, my wife says that a certain
zone in the yard doesn't get watered reliably.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

He got the correct readings because the problem wasn't the board but the
connection between the board and the gas solenoid not making proper
contact. Since both the board and the valve were new there really wasn't
any question about their working. It took him a little while to isolate
the connection. These connectors are the male and female pin types. So
it is virtually impossible to measure them when connected.


Off topic, but vaguely related to diagnosing electrical problems:

We just visited friends who recently moved into a brand new apartment in
a brand new building. They have a mysterious electrical problem: When
the oven door is opened, the lights in a different room go out. The
arc-fault breaker trips. The maintenance guys don't know why, but
apparently lots of tenants have the same problem.

We solved it temporarily by removing the oven's light bulb.


Try this hypothesis on for size. The oven door switch doesn't have
mechanical hysteresis (ie: if doesn't snap over from open to closed as the
door opens). Since people don't normally fling open their oven doors, the
switch closes slowly, causing intermittent current which the arc-fault
breaker sees as an arcing fault, and trips for. Since it's a new building,
it's quite likely that most of the suites have the same oven (and all of
them have the same type of breakers and wiring), and therefore many people
have the same problem. If it's a gas oven, then it could be very likely
that the oven and the lights in the next room are on the same circuit.

That sounds like a reasonable possibility. It is a gas oven.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, March 25, 2019 at 7:56:03 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/25/2019 2:33 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, March 23, 2019 at 4:09:26 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-20 09:42, wrote:
On Tuesday, March 19, 2019 at 1:28:01 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-19 11:17, wrote:
A couple of months ago when it was coldest my central heating
stopped igniting. My impression from the sounds it was making was
that the thermocouple was bad or the pilot light that would be
ignited was dirty or some such so that the flame wasn't close
enough to the thermocouple of inform it that there was a real
flame there and turn the full flame on.

The repairman came out and said that the pilot and thermocouple
was OK and changed out the main gas valve. The heater appeared to
work for six weeks and then as the weather got cold again started
not lighting again.

The company sent another repairman out and he said that it was
the main control board and replaced that.

I am now $1,600 into "repairs" and sure enough - the heater
isn't lighting still.

It would appear to me at this time that there is nothing more to
replace but the pilot tube and the thermocouple. So I wonder how
to convince the repairman that there is something wrong with one
of those?


We had that happen a long time ago and the cause was the
electronic controller board. The central propane furnace would go
VROOOOP .. PHUTAH-PHUT ... RUMBLE ... VROOOOOOOOOP ... and never
stayed on anymore.

When the technician came out he exclaimed "Oh look, an old Fenwal
controller board!", saying he was amazed that it lasted this long.
He switched it out against one from another manufacturer and all
was well.

I asked him to leave the old board and when probing it I found that
the triac that controls the main burner valve had gone partially
bad so it wouldn't be able to send a full current through the valve
solenoid anymore. Could have kicked myself because instead of
paying a few hundred Dollars I could have gotten one of those triac
for a couple of Dollars and replaced it. If these triac are on a
separate driver board then check that.

There is also a suction sensor, for example a flap in the intake
stream that operates a signaling switch. If that got crudded up it
might at times falsely signal a failing air draft and that would
cut the main valve.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/




when the technician came out again the board was showing errors of
"too many tries". He pulled the connector off and spread the male
connector so that it would make better connection to the main gas
valve and it appears to work perfectly now. Though when the main gas
valve was replaced 3 months ago it all worked fine until recently.


The first technician could have diagnosed that easily by measuring how
many volts are actually arriving at the solenoid. This is the first
order of business for me when, for example, my wife says that a certain
zone in the yard doesn't get watered reliably.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

He got the correct readings because the problem wasn't the board but the connection between the board and the gas solenoid not making proper contact. Since both the board and the valve were new there really wasn't any question about their working. It took him a little while to isolate the connection. These connectors are the male and female pin types. So it is virtually impossible to measure them when connected.


Off topic, but vaguely related to diagnosing electrical problems:

We just visited friends who recently moved into a brand new apartment in
a brand new building. They have a mysterious electrical problem: When
the oven door is opened, the lights in a different room go out. The
arc-fault breaker trips. The maintenance guys don't know why, but
apparently lots of tenants have the same problem.

We solved it temporarily by removing the oven's light bulb.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Probably reversed polarity on the wires. Simple fix.

On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 10:38:29 +0700, John B. Slocomb wrote:

On Mon, 25 Mar 2019 20:07:08 -0700, Bob F wrote:

On 3/20/2019 12:04 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, March 20, 2019 at 11:09:26 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 3/19/2019 4:04 PM, Joerg wrote:

snip

We rarely use it anymore due to the price-gouging in the propane
industry. We switched to cord wood and pellets.

No natural gas in your area? Odd for California housing developments.

There's a big move now to all-electric since the electricity can be
generated without the use of fossil fuels.

I don't know where you get that idea. Those new windmills are more
than 500 meters high and they will not start turning in anything short
of hurricane force winds so the "generator" is driven like a motor to
keep them rotating. Any that you see not turning are turned off and
may be broken. The results of all of this is those windmills have a
net power DRAIN in most areas because while they generate a good deal
of power when the wind is above 20 mph that is rare.

Solar farms are almost as bad. They virtually kill the environment
beneath them and they have efficiency of only 22% or so when new. They
age 4 times faster than is claimed and if you do not keep them clean
they can fail faster than that. At 22% efficiency at high noon when
the sun is directly overhead that means that they can only generate
220 watts per square meter.

A friend was planning on putting solar cells on his home in Phoenix
and dragged me off to a solar show. The salesmen were taunting 20 year
lifespan. I talked to the engineers and they told me soto vox that
they were 5 years to 50% output if the surfaces were cleaned all the
time. And this is only under perfect conditions. They are only good
for output on 2 hours either side of local true noon. Any clouds
greatly reduce their output.

So virtually all of that crap about "green energy" is just that. They
cause 100 times more environmental damage than they supposedly
prevent. Birds cannot judge a windmill speed because the ends of the
blades are traveling at 200 mph. The sound from the rotating blades
even being driven via motor power confuse bats and when under full
wind drive make super-sonic sounds so loud that they permanently
deafen the insect eating bats that are environmentally important.

All of this is well known and there are plenty of papers written on
these subjects. Why does the media avoid these at all costs and
continue to promote the fraud of climate change when the climate has
been more or less stable since the end of the Little Ice Age?


There is one thing I notice about those who brag about using solar power
or windmills to generate electricity. They all, every one, have a small
diesel generator out back of the house :-)

It is that or big batteries. Shrug, even coal plants have their non-
productive days and with the increasing end-of life problems the golden
days of power all the time has passed.

On Monday, March 25, 2019 at 8:07:45 PM UTC-7, Bob F wrote:
On 3/20/2019 12:04 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, March 20, 2019 at 11:09:26 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 3/19/2019 4:04 PM, Joerg wrote:

snip

We rarely use it anymore due to the price-gouging in the propane
industry. We switched to cord wood and pellets.

No natural gas in your area? Odd for California housing developments.

There's a big move now to all-electric since the electricity can be
generated without the use of fossil fuels.

I don't know where you get that idea. Those new windmills are more than 500 meters high and they will not start turning in anything short of hurricane force winds so the "generator" is driven like a motor to keep them rotating. Any that you see not turning are turned off and may be broken. The results of all of this is those windmills have a net power DRAIN in most areas because while they generate a good deal of power when the wind is above 20 mph that is rare.

Solar farms are almost as bad. They virtually kill the environment beneath them and they have efficiency of only 22% or so when new. They age 4 times faster than is claimed and if you do not keep them clean they can fail faster than that. At 22% efficiency at high noon when the sun is directly overhead that means that they can only generate 220 watts per square meter.

A friend was planning on putting solar cells on his home in Phoenix and dragged me off to a solar show. The salesmen were taunting 20 year lifespan. I talked to the engineers and they told me soto vox that they were 5 years to 50% output if the surfaces were cleaned all the time. And this is only under perfect conditions. They are only good for output on 2 hours either side of local true noon. Any clouds greatly reduce their output.

So virtually all of that crap about "green energy" is just that. They cause 100 times more environmental damage than they supposedly prevent. Birds cannot judge a windmill speed because the ends of the blades are traveling at 200 mph. The sound from the rotating blades even being driven via motor power confuse bats and when under full wind drive make super-sonic sounds so loud that they permanently deafen the insect eating bats that are environmentally important.

All of this is well known and there are plenty of papers written on these subjects. Why does the media avoid these at all costs and continue to promote the fraud of climate change when the climate has been more or less stable since the end of the Little Ice Age?


LOL! You actually BELIEVE this crap?

I don't know who you are or where you live but my brother used to be the electrician for the power company that runs the windmills in the Altamont Pass area. I have seen the destruction. You only have to ride an F-ing bike through the May Rd./North Flynn Rd. area to see it.

The new windmills now hardly ever generate power anymore because it takes 20 knots of wind or more to generate enough power to turn those huge blades. So they drive them by powering them up all the time to keep them revolving because they will not start in the amount of wind that is usually the highest wind they receive. The mills that are not moving are those that will not work with wind from the normal direction and they don't get powered up unless the predictions are for more northerly or southerly winds.

I have gone to solar shows and while the salesmen are bragging about all sorts of efficiencies and long life the engineers tell me a far different story. Strange how an engineer can talk more openly to another engineer.

So tell me what YOU know about this "crap"?

On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 11:20:05 +0700, John B. Slocomb wrote:

On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 03:31:34 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Mar 2019 18:59:20 -0700, sms wrote:

On 3/20/2019 3:44 PM, news18 wrote:

snip

Wood is a preferrable heating method to gas to electric. Since our
wood heater almost needs replacement, we did look at pellets, but
limited supply leading to cost gouging was a concern, plus modern
heaters seem to be tin plate these days.

In California, on "Spare the Air" days it is forbidden to use wood or
pellets for heating. "The rule prohibits burning any solid fuel,
including pellets and manufactured logs."

At least human lungs have evolved to have some measure of resiliance to
wood fire products. it would bbe far better if they banned ICE vehicles
for the day as their products cause very serious health problem.

Ah but internal combustion powered machinery is necessary to maintain
life in the U.S.

At the moment, but there is a nit pick about maintain life and continue
to prop up the mass consumer resource consumption lifestyle being towo
entirely different views.

I once commented to a bloke on the Internet who was complaining about
having to drive his kids to school that why didn't he have the kids walk
to school and he replied something to the effect that they couldn't walk
as it was too far, a whole mile to school. I replied that I had walked a
mile, or more, to school from the time I was in the first grade and he
didn't believe it.

Same. Our pocket money as kids was just nough to cover the weekly school
bus fare. If I walked, I got to keep it for what I wanted to spend it on.
Later on, as no one else was using the family kids bicyce, I started
riding and have been adicted ever since.

It is just over 100 metres to the local kids school here and one lot of
stupid parents drive their child too and from scool every day. on the
other hand, it iseasy to tell when it is kids to scool,/kids home from
school time. We've even had a cat that would appear at the front walkway
to solicit pats from the passing kids.