InterBike

More disappointing than last year with more fashion than in the past
and no new products pr solution. I found not a single rim that had
sockets and eyelets and the shop owners who stopped to look complained
they get a lot of cracked rims. To make up for that a CVT using
tilt-ball friction drive tried to convince me that I was wrong about
the not being such a device that is continuous while using positive
engagement gears. When I saw how it worked, I pointed out that many
machine tools were run that way and that their hub was horrendously
heavy.

I am surprised that they received 30+ patents on this ancient drive
mechanism that Leonardo sketched centuries ago:

http://cocolico.info/design/nuvinci-fallbrook-bike

There were no tire patches and few tire pumps but rather CO2
cartridges.

Large billboards had photos of macho-men grimacing jut jawed with
three day stubble on their faces. I mentioned that I see enough of
these poseurs who are so busy with their schtick that they cannot
respond to a greeting from a bicyclist going the other way. The best
design I saw was the STRIDA commute /folding bicycle:

http://www.strida.us/

I was saddened to see that Switzerland had lost their logo, something
I always found endearing, being a fan to the great William Tell who
stands in Canto Uri bigger than life with crossbow over his right
shoulder and his small son on his left.

http://www.tell.ch/schweiz/telldenkmal.htm

All articles made in Switzerland had a small crossbow that was far more
elegant than "Swiss Made" or "Made in Switzerland"":

http://www.swisslabel.ch/d/

No Swiss product carries that logo anymore3 and DT SWISS spokes said
the feds had tightened down on use of national emblems in business.

Jobst Brandt

wrote:
More disappointing than last year with more fashion than in the past
and no new products pr solution. I found not a single rim that had
sockets and eyelets and the shop owners who stopped to look complained
they get a lot of cracked rims.

eh?

1. dt swiss and mavic and ambrosio and [insert a number of other names]
still make socketed rims jobst. you're just not looking. or [more
likely] you're only seeing what you want to see. besides, there's not
much point in a socketed rim - the web on which the socket sits is so
thin, it offers negligible structural benefit.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/121453841/

you may as well take the weight savings and call it a day. which is of
course what manufacturers with the time and money to do their homework
frequently do.

2. shop owners who crack rims are those poor souls that /you/ have duped
with your underinformed drivel about spoke tension "as high as the rim
can bear" jobst. misconstruing a load calculation as a strength
calculation was a gross mistake on your part and has cost a lot of
people a lot of money. the very least you can do is make the effort to
correct yourself - especially now as the facts have been pointed out for
you. apologizing might help too, although it will not compensate them
anywhere near appropriately.

remaining incoherent bleatings snipped - you appear to be losing your
thread jobst...

wrote:
More disappointing than last year with more fashion than in the past
and no new products pr solution.

I thought that the ridiculous number of sports nutrition products
surpassed the number of clothing booths.

I found not a single rim that had
sockets and eyelets and the shop owners who stopped to look complained
they get a lot of cracked rims.

So much of the show is dedicated to the quest for "stupid light."

To make up for that a CVT using
tilt-ball friction drive tried to convince me that I was wrong about
the not being such a device that is continuous while using positive
engagement gears. When I saw how it worked, I pointed out that many
machine tools were run that way and that their hub was horrendously
heavy.

I tried that hub at Interbike. They were claiming that the
inefficiencies of the weight and mechanics were less than the losses of
gear changing, and drag due to the chain line in some combinations. To
me it was another answer to a question nobody asked.

There were no tire patches and few tire pumps but rather CO2
cartridges.

Did you see the company that put a pump inside a Phil Wood hub? They
were in the Phil Wood booth. You pushed a button and then rode and the
spinning hub pumped the tire via a hose from the hub to the valve.

Large billboards had photos of macho-men grimacing jut jawed with
three day stubble on their faces. I mentioned that I see enough of
these poseurs who are so busy with their schtick that they cannot
respond to a greeting from a bicyclist going the other way. The best
design I saw was the STRIDA commute /folding bicycle:

I rode that around the show floor, pretty cool. But what they've done is
to turn a very inexpensive folder in Asia into an expensive folder for
North America by adding so much content to it. When I saw the Strida at
the Taipei show in March, they had no disc brakes, no Schlumpf® Drive,
and they were wholesaling for under $200. Similarly, when Brompton was
manufacturing in Taiwan you could pick a Brompton up for under $250,
while they were $700 (for a better specced model) in the U.S.. I
question how many people will pay $800 for a Strida.

jim beam wrote:

*besides, there's not
much point in a socketed rim - the web on which the socket sits is so
thin, it offers negligible structural benefit.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/121453841/

There looks to be plenty of structural benefit there-- especially
since the perimeter of the socket that sits on the outward-facing wall
of the rim is so much larger and closer to the rim sidewalls than the
part that sits on the spoke bed. On top of that, it keeps nipples
from going astray during building and diminishes the likelihood of
drilled holes cutting the rim strip.

Chalo

Chalo wrote:
jim beam wrote:
�besides, there's not
much point in a socketed rim - the web on which the socket sits is so
thin, it offers negligible structural benefit.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/121453841/

There looks to be plenty of structural benefit there-- especially
since the perimeter of the socket that sits on the outward-facing wall
of the rim is so much larger and closer to the rim sidewalls than the
part that sits on the spoke bed.

that web is so thin, if it supported the full cyclic 1000N spoke load,
it wouldn't last 100 miles.



On top of that, it keeps nipples
from going astray during building

that's true. not worth the weight penalty just for that though.
besides, if sockets are such a structural benefit, why don't mtb rims
have them? [rhetorical] none do as far as i know. but there's no
complaining because they're not ridden by crusty misguided old farts in
palo alto.


and diminishes the likelihood of
drilled holes cutting the rim strip.

in my experience, rusted sockets are much more successful at cutting rim
strips!

jim beam wrote:

that web is so thin, if it supported the full cyclic 1000N spoke load,
it wouldn't last 100 miles.

But it doesn't have to support the whole spoke tension. Any one turn
of a fastener's thread does not have to support the entire fastener
tension, and it's better to have several turns bearing the load. I
don't see why the same advantages don't confer to the rim that bears
spoke tension loads on both walls instead of only one.

besides, if sockets are such a structural benefit, why don't mtb rims
have them? *[rhetorical] *none do as far as i know. *

Mavic M261 and M281 had them. The Alex Supra RX, a BMX rim, has
them.

MTB rims have it easier in some regards than road bike rims. They are
larger in section and smaller in hoop diameter, and riding stresses
are more evenly distributed by the fat tire. I'd not be at all
surprised if fluctuations in spoke tension were greater in skinny-tire
wheels even if the overall duty of the bike is lighter.

Chalo

jim beam wrote:

besides, if sockets are such a structural benefit, why don't mtb rims
have them? *[rhetorical] *none do as far as i know. *

http://www.mavic.com/mtb/products/ex....995014.2.aspx

Chalo

Chalo wrote:

MTB rims have it easier in some regards than road bike rims. They are
larger in section and smaller in hoop diameter, and riding stresses
are more evenly distributed by the fat tire. I'd not be at all
surprised if fluctuations in spoke tension were greater in skinny-tire
wheels even if the overall duty of the bike is lighter.

This is very true. Road rims are much more difficult to engineer because
the stress is not well distributed.

As far as Interbike, remember that most companies bring only a small
subset of their products to the show. No doubt many of the rim
manufacturers showing their "stupid-light" rims, do have more practical
products with sockets and eyelets to make the rims more reliable.

Apparently many enthusiasts walk into a bike shop with a small scale and
a credit card with a high limit. These are very profitable customers for
shops, and these customers help subsidize the operation of the less
profitable goods and services the shop offers. It's like the car buyers
that walk into a car dealer and happily pay "invoice" or MSRP, then add
an extended warranty, pin striping, undercoating, fabric guard, glass
etching, paint protectant, etc., giving the dealer enough profit to
allow them to sell the same vehicle to other customers for well under
invoice.

Chalo wrote:
jim beam wrote:
that web is so thin, if it supported the full cyclic 1000N spoke load,
it wouldn't last 100 miles.

But it doesn't have to support the whole spoke tension.

but it doesn't have to support /any/ if there's no socket! look at all
the rims that have no socket, and which, when built with manufacturers
spoke spec, are perfectly reliable. look at how thin and insubstantial
that web is. because of dimensions, simple elasticity dictates that the
maximum load it bears is 1/3rd of that of the main rim bed...


Any one turn
of a fastener's thread does not have to support the entire fastener
tension, and it's better to have several turns bearing the load.

only three threads bear a load - unless it's taper thread.


I
don't see why the same advantages don't confer to the rim that bears
spoke tension loads on both walls instead of only one.

besides, if sockets are such a structural benefit, why don't mtb rims
have them? �[rhetorical] �none do as far as i know. �

Mavic M261 and M281 had them. The Alex Supra RX, a BMX rim, has
them.

MTB rims have it easier in some regards than road bike rims.

absolutely not. not when used for their intended application at any rate.



They are
larger in section and smaller in hoop diameter, and riding stresses
are more evenly distributed by the fat tire.

smaller diameter, yes. fat tire load distribution??? absolutely not.



I'd not be at all
surprised if fluctuations in spoke tension were greater in skinny-tire
wheels even if the overall duty of the bike is lighter.

absolutely not if the mtb is actually ridden mtb.

the only advantage i see that mtb rims have is the slightly better dish
of the rear wheel - more even spoke tension. and maybe smaller
diameter. other than that, at least in my experience, mtb rims have a
significantly tougher life than any road rim.




Chalo

SMS wrote:
Chalo wrote:

MTB rims have it easier in some regards than road bike rims. They are
larger in section and smaller in hoop diameter, and riding stresses
are more evenly distributed by the fat tire. I'd not be at all
surprised if fluctuations in spoke tension were greater in skinny-tire
wheels even if the overall duty of the bike is lighter.

This is very true. Road rims are much more difficult to engineer because
the stress is not well distributed.

eh? you've never ridden mtb obviously.




As far as Interbike, remember that most companies bring only a small
subset of their products to the show. No doubt many of the rim
manufacturers showing their "stupid-light" rims, do have more practical
products with sockets and eyelets to make the rims more reliable.

Apparently many enthusiasts walk into a bike shop with a small scale and
a credit card with a high limit. These are very profitable customers for
shops, and these customers help subsidize the operation of the less
profitable goods and services the shop offers. It's like the car buyers
that walk into a car dealer and happily pay "invoice" or MSRP, then add
an extended warranty, pin striping, undercoating, fabric guard, glass
etching, paint protectant, etc., giving the dealer enough profit to
allow them to sell the same vehicle to other customers for well under
invoice.