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Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries



 
 
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  #11  
Old February 7th 18, 04:13 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 6,271
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2/7/2018 10:22 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, February 6, 2018 at 7:16:12 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 21:56:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/6/2018 1:52 PM, sms wrote:
My wife's Lezyne Deca 1500XXL stopped taking a charge, at all. Taking it
apart, I saw that the batteries were made in July 2015. Not too good for
it to stop working that soon.

Some of my bikes have dynamos that are 30 years old. They just keep
going and going and going...


And I doubt that your generators cost $150 ($180 with a box) either
:-)


My generator and light cost almost five times the price of my little L&M Urban 800 all-in-one, which produces more light. Hub was $110 on sale at Western Bikeworks (SP PD8), and the Luxos B was around $120 OTC from Clever Cycles in Portland. Throw in time for building front wheel. I got the all in one on sale for around $45.


Hub dynos can be a significant expense, but they are not the only
choice. One does not always need their advantages.

My touring bike and our tandem have bottle dynos with good B&M
headlights. Those bottle dynos were free, decades ago. The one on my
touring bike is occasionally starting to rattle a bit (I think a bearing
is going) but it's usually perfect. When I get annoyed enough, I'll
replace it with another free one from my junk box.

My wife's touring bike and two of our folding bikes have roller dynos.
They work especially well for folders because they are compact and well
protected. I bought one of those roller units brand new in about 1979. I
think another was bought used, and I know one was given to me. So
overall, my dyno expenses are minimal.

Granted, bottle dynos might slip in heavy rain if not well adjusted.
Rollers will slip in mud. But those shortcomings are unimportant to most
cyclists.

Jay, I think your riding conditions are at the far right of some bell
curve. You do fast sport riding over long distances, you commute almost
every day in all weather, you commute over tough hills and dirt paths,
you ride in dense traffic, you maintain a stable of bikes...

Very few cyclists do all those things. Very few really need the high
efficiency and extreme reliability of a hub dyno. Very few need
multi-hundred-lumen headlights. I think almost all cyclists would do
fine with an old-tech dyno and a good (not top-of-the-line) B&M
headlight. It wouldn't cost them an arm and a leg.

And it wouldn't require hacker-style electronic repair in three years.


--
- Frank Krygowski
Ads
  #12  
Old February 7th 18, 04:20 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 6,271
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2/7/2018 1:06 AM, Tosspot wrote:
On 07/02/18 03:56, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/6/2018 1:52 PM, sms wrote:
My wife's Lezyne Deca 1500XXL stopped taking a charge, at all. Taking
it apart, I saw that the batteries were made in July 2015. Not too
good for it to stop working that soon.


Some of my bikes have dynamos that are 30 years old. They just keep
going and going and going...


I bet the lights don't, as he peers at a collection of CYOs[1] and a
recently defunct Flat-S.* Tbf the Flat S is around 7 years old.

[1] Not one lasted 18 months, they simply aren't waterproof imho.


I had one off-brand dyno LED headlight quit. Oddly enough, the LED
itself died while the light was less than a year old. The company had
stopped selling it - gee, I wonder why? - so they gave me a battery
light in exchange. Just for kicks, I replaced the dyno light's LED
myself and it still works.

But I'm not qualified to comment on waterproofing of Cyo lights. I have
a couple, but they're mounted under my handlebar bags. They don't get
very wet even on the unusual occasions when I ride at night in the rain.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #13  
Old February 7th 18, 04:53 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 3,369
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 8:13:04 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/7/2018 10:22 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, February 6, 2018 at 7:16:12 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 21:56:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/6/2018 1:52 PM, sms wrote:
My wife's Lezyne Deca 1500XXL stopped taking a charge, at all. Taking it
apart, I saw that the batteries were made in July 2015. Not too good for
it to stop working that soon.

Some of my bikes have dynamos that are 30 years old. They just keep
going and going and going...

And I doubt that your generators cost $150 ($180 with a box) either
:-)


My generator and light cost almost five times the price of my little L&M Urban 800 all-in-one, which produces more light. Hub was $110 on sale at Western Bikeworks (SP PD8), and the Luxos B was around $120 OTC from Clever Cycles in Portland. Throw in time for building front wheel. I got the all in one on sale for around $45.


Hub dynos can be a significant expense, but they are not the only
choice. One does not always need their advantages.

My touring bike and our tandem have bottle dynos with good B&M
headlights. Those bottle dynos were free, decades ago. The one on my
touring bike is occasionally starting to rattle a bit (I think a bearing
is going) but it's usually perfect. When I get annoyed enough, I'll
replace it with another free one from my junk box.

My wife's touring bike and two of our folding bikes have roller dynos.
They work especially well for folders because they are compact and well
protected. I bought one of those roller units brand new in about 1979. I
think another was bought used, and I know one was given to me. So
overall, my dyno expenses are minimal.

Granted, bottle dynos might slip in heavy rain if not well adjusted.
Rollers will slip in mud. But those shortcomings are unimportant to most
cyclists.

Jay, I think your riding conditions are at the far right of some bell
curve. You do fast sport riding over long distances, you commute almost
every day in all weather, you commute over tough hills and dirt paths,
you ride in dense traffic, you maintain a stable of bikes...

Very few cyclists do all those things. Very few really need the high
efficiency and extreme reliability of a hub dyno. Very few need
multi-hundred-lumen headlights. I think almost all cyclists would do
fine with an old-tech dyno and a good (not top-of-the-line) B&M
headlight. It wouldn't cost them an arm and a leg.

And it wouldn't require hacker-style electronic repair in three years.


I intend to go back to a dyno on my commuter, and if I had a single transportation bike, it would have a dyno. Also, my Urban 800 is under-powered for heavy rain, and the battery life at full output is pitiful. For stormy nights, I'd use something with a higher output or just cope with riding by Braille.

I don't think my riding pattern is unusual in this city, except for the stable of bikes thing and the fact that the new bikes have odd-ball axle and fork crown issues. If I had not gotten a free replacement CX frame for my commuter, I would have rebuilt the commuter on something different -- maybe even one of the Somas like the Fogcutter, which is a really cool frame with a threaded BB, discs and all the braze-ons one could hope for.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #14  
Old February 7th 18, 04:57 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Posts: 8,323
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2/7/2018 7:01 AM, AMuzi wrote:

snip

My regular glass bulb lamps...


I read about those in my history book.
  #15  
Old February 7th 18, 05:15 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,323
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2/7/2018 7:22 AM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

My generator and light cost almost five times the price of my little L&M Urban 800 all-in-one, which produces more light. Hub was $110 on sale at Western Bikeworks (SP PD8), and the Luxos B was around $120 OTC from Clever Cycles in Portland. Throw in time for building front wheel. I got the all in one on sale for around $45.

Now, the battery life on the Urban sucks, and forgetting to charge is a reality -- so it's not as convenient as a dyno light, but I can switch it around between bikes. I've been switching between two bikes for commuting lately due to mechanical issues. One bike has a through-axle and the other doesn't, so switching dyno lights would be impossible. I'd need a dyno hub with 15mm through axle which, on its own, can cost as much as $200. I would also have to get a handlebar mount since there is no through hole on the crown of either of my disc bikes. I miss that and once I get a bar mount, I'll go back to using my Luxos B on the commuter, but I'll also use my little flea-watt back up blinky on the bar. I think low watt flashers or pulsing (rather than bursting flash-bulb) flashers are good in urban bicycle and car traffic.


When the Lezyne battery pack failed (and it failed completely, not just
lower capacity), we were about to go out on a ride. I gave my identical
light to the spousal unit, and I relied on my dynamo light with hub
dynamo. It was a day ride so it was no big deal, but there was no way
anyone would want to be out on that unlit MUP at night with only a
dynamo light. It's very dark with a lot of twists and turns, and ups and
downs. I'd estimate that about 70% of the riders on the MUP had DRLs
going. The dynamo light on my road bike is not a high-end dynamo light
(that's on my Dahon folder), but it is the only commercially available
dynamo light with a flashing DRL. It's enough to stay legal and be seen
https://www.planetbike.com/store/blaze-dynamo-sl-bike-headlight.html.

And yes, adequate dynamo lights are very expensive, not just because of
the light itself, but because of the high cost of a wheel with a dynamo hub.

One advantage of the Oculus light from Barry is that it uses standard
size button-top Li-Ion batteries
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91CXQCE95lL._SL1500_.jpg
that are easily user replaceable . With the Lezyne, you could carry some
extra battery packs but you really would not want to be taking the light
apart to change the battery while on a ride. It's very water-proof with
O-rings in three places that you'd have to get back in place, and one of
the screws holding it together is a very small Torx screw.

  #16  
Old February 7th 18, 05:53 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
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Posts: 2,878
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 06:38:29 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 2/6/2018 8:48 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Notice that his version:
https://www.amazon.com/Tenergy-Li-ion-2200mAh-Rechargeable-Battery/dp/B002Y2LJW0/
is series connected, but claims only 2200ma-hr. Kinda looks like the
same cells, but wired differently. Looks like the one you purchased
might be lying about the battery capacity. You'll find out soon
enough if the battery is discharged faster than expected.


Tenergy has several different 18650 cells at different capacities.


Yes, that's possible.

I guess I should have gotten these 9800maH 18650 cells:
https://www.walmart.com/ip/8-pcs-Universal-18650-3-7V-9800-mAh-Rechargeable-Lithium-Batteries-Tip-Main-Batery-Cell-For-Flashlight-Torch-Camera/866646151.
9800mAH and only $1 each. But I'm waiting for the new 10,000 mAH cells.


I have some Belchfire brand 5800 ma-hr cells that cost me about $1 on
eBay. At 1.5A, they deliver 890 ma-hr.
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/battery-tests/18650.jpg
My theory is that the actual capacity is inversely proportional to the
advertised capacity.

No need to wait for 10K LiIon cells. By merely misusing an existing
overpriced product:
http://store.caig.com/s.nl/it.A/id.2847/.f
you can reduce or eliminate the losses from cell contact resistance
sufficiently to deliver a 10K LiIon cell. Only $150/7.4mL. It should
have about the same performance improvement as soldering the battery
contact spring in a LiIon flashlight, but without the bother of
learning how to solder properly:
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=flashlight+solder+spring&oq=flas hlight+solder+spring
Admittedly, such performance enhancements are most useful for high
power lighting, but if only 10% of the bicycle lighting sales
predictions are credible, we will soon be riding around with megalumen
headlights.

I'm anxiously waiting for a copper or brass bicycle light (to further
reduce resistive losses in the aluminum package):
https://www.google.com/search?q=copper+flashlight&tbm=isch
https://www.google.com/search?q=brass+flashlight&tbm=isch
After those, we can try a silver plated bicycle light.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #17  
Old February 7th 18, 07:23 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,323
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2/6/2018 8:48 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 10:52:50 -0800, sms
wrote:

My wife's Lezyne Deca 1500XXL stopped taking a charge, at all. Taking it
apart, I saw that the batteries were made in July 2015. Not too good for
it to stop working that soon. These lights don't have user-replaceable
batteries, but by removing two screws I was able to open it, and the
battery pack does have a connector on it so at least they didn't solder
it directly to the printed circuit board.


I don't see a problem. If your wife used the light every day for
about 2 years, that would be 730 charge cycles. That's about the
correct lifetime for a 60% DoD (depth of discharge). See table 2:
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries


Not nearly every day. I'd estimate about 200 total charge/discharge
cycles. Something failed in the battery pack because it wasn't like the
operating time was less than when new, the pack would not charge at all.

Charging the batteries in parallel with a 2A USB charger is also about
right. For two alleged 2800mA-hr cells in parallel, that would be
about 0.35C charge which is quite safe.

I've found that the cells that die quickly are usually helped along by
a charge circuit that overcharges the battery. 4.2v should be the
absolute maximum. LiIon loses about 10% of it's capacity during the
initial rapid discharge from 4.2 to 4.0V. While I don't like losing
the 10%, the battery will last much longer if only charged to 4.0v.
Charging to 3.92v yields the best compromise between two failure
mechanisms (electrolyte oxidation and growing crud on the anode). See
"summary" section:
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_808b_what_causes_li_ion_to_die


The charge voltage was correct. And of course the protection circuit in
he pack ensures that the charge voltage doesn't exceed 4.2V, regardless
of what the charging circuit voltage actually is.

It's a 2 cell 18650 pack with the batteries in parallel, and a
protection circuit board shared between the two cells. The cells are
allegedly 2800mAH, for a total of 5600mAH.


Seems rather high. Note that batteries are tested at a 0.2C
discharge, which yields larger numbers than the usual headlight
discharge rate. The Lezyne Deca 1500XXL claims 1500 lumens, which
also seems a bit high. Assuming 120 lumens/watt at a nominal
3.7V/battery, that's:
1500 / 120 / 3.7 = 3.4A
to run the headlight at full brightness, or 1.7A per cell.
Meanwhile, the cell capacity is tested at:
0.2 * 2800 = 0.56A


This is the battery in the original pack:
http://www.gebc-energy.com/Uploadfile/pdf/ICR18650/ICR18650H3.pdf

I disassembled the pack. The batteries are completely discharged, 0V. To
me this indicates a failure of the protection circuit which normally
would not allow discharge below 2.8V.

The closest I could find
on-line was a 2x2600mAH parallel pack
https://www.amazon.com/dp/product/B003SH4BV6.


Notice that his version:
https://www.amazon.com/Tenergy-Li-ion-2200mAh-Rechargeable-Battery/dp/B002Y2LJW0/
is series connected, but claims only 2200ma-hr. Kinda looks like the
same cells, but wired differently. Looks like the one you purchased
might be lying about the battery capacity. You'll find out soon
enough if the battery is discharged faster than expected.


Do any manufacturers not lie? It's a matter of degree. Tenergy is an
industrial supplier of batteries with a real building in Fremont, and
not like buying no-name batteries on Aliexpress.

Ready to buy a battery discharge tester
http://www.westmountainradio.com/cba.php
and a lux meter?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/391973339920
https://www.ebay.com/itm/401324425264

I moved the connector from the old pack to the new pack, plugged it in,
and closed it up. Seems to work fine now.


Yeah, for how long will it work? Dig out your digital volts-guesser
and measure the EoC (end of charge) voltage. If it's over 4.2v, that
may be why it died early. Also, see how long it will run. You don't
want it going out prematurely on the initial test run. Maybe carry a
2nd headlight for the initial testing.


The charge voltage from the plug that connects to the battery was
4.19V. I checked that before I ordered a new battery because I thought
that the problem with the light might have been with the charging circuitry.

The measured lumens by mtbr.com of the Deca Drive XXL was 1390, so they
were not using chilumens
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=chilumen, and there
was minimal lunmenflation
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=lumenflation.

This morning I put the light on the maximum setting and it ran for just
about exactly two hours before it stepped down the intensity.

5200 mAH [rated]
3.7 V [rated]
19.24 Watt-Hours [calculated]
2.0 Hours [measured]
9.62 Watts [calculated]
2.6 Amps [calculated]
1390 lumens [measured by mtbr.com]
144.5 lumens/watt [calculated]
3 LEDs
48.2 lumens/LED [calculated]

Of course the reality is that the batteries were not fully discharged
when it dropped the output, so the lumens per watt was likely quite a
bit higher.

I like the design of the Lezyne and how they use 3 LEDs to mitigate
thermal issues, as well as to give a more usable beam pattern that
includes sufficient side illumination. Definitely NOT StVZO
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=stvzo. What some
people don't understand is that optics are very important in bicycle
lights where you are dealing with a limited amount of battery or dynamo
power.

The Lezyne also shows you whether you're connected to a low-power USB
port (500mA) or a 2A USB port. The charging LED is green for low power,
blue for high power. You don't need their 2A charger, any 2A charger
will do. This is the one I use: https://www.frys.com/product/8335977.


  #18  
Old February 7th 18, 07:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tosspot[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,191
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 07/02/18 16:01, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/7/2018 12:06 AM, Tosspot wrote:
On 07/02/18 03:56, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/6/2018 1:52 PM, sms wrote:
My wife's Lezyne Deca 1500XXL stopped taking a charge, at
all. Taking it apart, I saw that the batteries were made
in July 2015. Not too good for it to stop working that soon.

Some of my bikes have dynamos that are 30 years old. They
just keep going and going and going...


I bet the lights don't, as he peers at a collection of
CYOs[1] and a recently defunct Flat-S.* Tbf the Flat S is
around 7 years old.

[1] Not one lasted 18 months, they simply aren't waterproof
imho.


My regular glass bulb lamps go 6~8 years between bulb failure in daily
use. YMMV


That ain't bad, and ime I'd expect a good few years from a filament
bulb. I like LEDs because they are bright, and take little power.


  #19  
Old February 7th 18, 09:05 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Ian Field
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Posts: 250
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries



"Joerg" wrote in message
...
On 2018-02-06 13:07, Ian Field wrote:


"sms" wrote in message
news
My wife's Lezyne Deca 1500XXL stopped taking a charge, at all. Taking
it apart, I saw that the batteries were made in July 2015. Not too
good for it to stop working that soon. These lights don't have
user-replaceable batteries, but by removing two screws I was able to
open it, and the battery pack does have a connector on it so at least
they didn't solder it directly to the printed circuit board.

It's a 2 cell 18650 pack with the batteries in parallel, and a
protection circuit board shared between the two cells. The cells are
allegedly 2800mAH, for a total of 5600mAH. The closest I could find
on-line was a 2x2600mAH parallel pack
https://www.amazon.com/dp/product/B003SH4BV6.

I moved the connector from the old pack to the new pack, plugged it
in, and closed it up. Seems to work fine now.


My favourite is recycle bin rescues - with a £0 price tag; life
expectancy isn't something to get traumatised about.

Most laptop packs are 2 or 3P-3S, you can split them up as series or
parallel pairs A/R.



In many areas they won't let you dive into recycling bins. You'd almost
have to lie in wait, dart out and yell "Yo, don't hand over that laptop
just yet!". Otherwise when it's in there it's in there and not coming back
out.


Most don't take any notice - one that said no has the bin next to customer
service desk, reconnaissance on the way in - anything interest and i make
use of the seating and wait for the clerk to nip out.

  #20  
Old February 8th 18, 12:23 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,878
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 11:23:23 -0800, sms
wrote:
This is the battery in the original pack:
http://www.gebc-energy.com/Uploadfile/pdf/ICR18650/ICR18650H3.pdf


4.3V max seems rather high and unsafe.

I disassembled the pack. The batteries are completely discharged, 0V. To
me this indicates a failure of the protection circuit which normally
would not allow discharge below 2.8V.


0V is an important clue. The undervoltage CID (current interrupt
device) protection of the battery has kicked in and disconnected the
positive terminal. How to recover:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWmu3U7tndA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w3Tv1Jg0ps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9BTNrJ0C_U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OKz3LpNHRg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deDP7Q3v3xA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOi0hepEtYo
I see this 0V problem quite often on brand new clone laptop battery
packs. I use a small jewelers screwdriver to recover.

I don't know exactly why the CID tripped, but my guess(tm) is that the
BMS (battery management system) has a low voltage trip point BELOW the
voltage of where the CID trips. The BMS probably has an accurate low
voltage disconnect voltage of 3.00v0.1V. However, the CID on the
battery is a mechanical device which can vary. I do not currently
have numbers on it's trip voltage but if it's over 3.00V, the CID will
trip before the BMS.

Do any manufacturers not lie?


Everyone lies, but that's ok because nobody listens.

It's a matter of degree. Tenergy is an
industrial supplier of batteries with a real building in Fremont, and
not like buying no-name batteries on Aliexpress.


Yep. I have quite a few Tenergy battery packs and chargers mostly
purchased from HobbyKing. Two of the really simple chargers blew up
and killed some battery packs. The batteries have been fine. All of
them met their capacity specs (tested at 0.2C).

The charge voltage from the plug that connects to the battery was
4.19V. I checked that before I ordered a new battery because I thought
that the problem with the light might have been with the charging circuitry.


The BMS overvoltage disconnects the battery at 4.28V0.025V so you're
probably ok with the charger. I prefer a lower voltage for the EoC in
order to get a longer battery life.

This morning I put the light on the maximum setting and it ran for just
about exactly two hours before it stepped down the intensity.

5200 mAH [rated]
3.7 V [rated]
19.24 Watt-Hours [calculated]
2.0 Hours [measured]
9.62 Watts [calculated]
2.6 Amps [calculated]
1390 lumens [measured by mtbr.com]
144.5 lumens/watt [calculated]
3 LEDs
48.2 lumens/LED [calculated]

Of course the reality is that the batteries were not fully discharged
when it dropped the output, so the lumens per watt was likely quite a
bit higher.


Those numbers look quite sane. The 144.5 lumens/watt seems a bit
high, especially when measured through a lens, but are not
outrageously inflated.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
 




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