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Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries



 
 
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  #71  
Old February 10th 18, 08:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 5,296
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2018-02-08 16:52, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/8/2018 3:08 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-07 07:01, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/7/2018 12:06 AM, Tosspot wrote:
On 07/02/18 03:56, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/6/2018 1:52 PM, sms wrote:
My wife's Lezyne Deca 1500XXL stopped taking a charge, at
all. Taking it apart, I saw that the batteries were made
in July 2015. Not too good for it to stop working that soon.

Some of my bikes have dynamos that are 30 years old. They
just keep going and going and going...

I bet the lights don't, as he peers at a collection of
CYOs[1] and a recently defunct Flat-S. Tbf the Flat S is
around 7 years old.

[1] Not one lasted 18 months, they simply aren't waterproof
imho.

My regular glass bulb lamps go 6~8 years between bulb failure in daily
use. YMMV


Ye olde 2.4W + 0.6W with a dynamo? When riding at a good clip, meaning
north of 15mph, those never lasted much longer than a month for me.
Even if they didn't blow their filament right away the bulbs turned
black inside and became dimmer than they were already to begin with.
When I was a teenager I started equipping my bikes with what the
automotive industry already understood over 100 years ago, brighter
lights, a battery and charging system. Soon the German police wanted
to give me a ticket for "non-standard" lighting. Luckily by that time
I was a Dutch resident and they had to let me go.

Those 2.4W bulbs were a joke.


I think you missed about three generations of dynamo lighting technology.

My first dyno had a vacuum bulb. It was terrible at lighting the road,
but fine as a "be seen" light, better than the battery lights available
at the time. Yes, the bulb blackened a bit after a while. That meant the
bulb needed to be changed. And yes, it wasn't wonderful overall; but at
that time (early 1970s) I knew of no really good bike light.


You had to make your own, either using Krypton flashlight bulbs
(expensive) or mofa lights. Mofas where the slow gas-popwered "bicycles"
in Germany, limited to 25km/. Unless souped up which almost all my class
mates who had one did.


My next dyno set came with a krypton bulb. It was significantly
brighter.



See? You could buy those in the 70's, just not for 6V. Most of the ones
I used on my bicycle were rated 3.7V.


... The optics of the headlamp were also a tiny bit better. This
was better at lighting the road, but still not great. It was more than
fine for a "be seen" light. (Contrary to modern myth, it takes very
little light to be easily seen and noticed by other road users.)

Incidentally, I don't think I ever burned out a bulb with either of
those lights. But I didn't ride fast with either.


I went through regular bike bulbs as if they were popcorn until I
switched to better systems.


When I eventually told my bike shop friend I wanted to see better, he
sold me a Union lamp with a halogen bulb. This was my first headlamp
that actually focused the light properly on the road. (It was StVZO
compliant.) With that, I was finally able to see the road well enough
for all the riding I did. And this headlamp had two zener diodes in the
circuit, which pretty much cure the bulb-blowing problem.
(Interestingly, after years of use, one of the zeners failed. But by
then I had other headlamps to choose from as replacements.)


The zener would also waste power. However, I found those lights way
overpriced back then. So yeah, I skipped that halogen generation except
for my desk lights.


For a long time that was my setup but I was interested enough to do
various experiments. I played with various battery lights, both
commercial and homebrew, including a couple with external battery packs.
I decided they offered minimal practical improvement over the dyno
lights and were not worth the inconvenience.



Most likely you didn't build them right. The best bulbs and reflectors
were those from "tactical flashlights" or whatever they called them. The
kind the police used when they were looking for someone. In those days
they had a metal tube that held D-cells, which I cut off. They had
Krypton bulbs or bulbs filled with other gases and the rated voltage was
always substantially lower than the battery stack offered yet they
lasted a long time.


... I learned that optics were
key, and I learned that some headlamps had better optics than others. I
compared dyno headlamps by mounting two of them, with a switch that
allowed either one or both to be active. And BTW, those were mostly 2.4
Watt bulbs, although I tried a 3 Watt for a while. I also learned that
some dynos produced a bit more power than others.


.... and blew those bulbs.


The experimenting ended when I bought my first Cyo. It became obvious to
me that this produced more light than I needed, so I considered the
problem solved. Later versions were even better. By now, I've had
friends with other battery lights praise my headlight, saying (for
example) "I want to ride next to Frank. His headlight is great!"

The overall point is this: The vacuum bulb headlamp someone used in
Germany in the 1970s has as much relation to current dyno light
technology as a MIFA has to a Trek Madone.


We were talking about Andy's light and that seems to be 70's era.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/think...-on-a-50-bike/


Oh man, I sure would not want to do that ride.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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  #72  
Old February 10th 18, 08:54 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 5,296
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2018-02-09 17:24, sms wrote:
On 2/9/2018 4:10 PM, Joerg wrote:

Those numbers aren't bad indeed. However, they'd be totally inadequate
for many of my bike rides with 4-5h of riding time.


Yes, if you needed full power for the entire ride, which is unlikely on
a road ride.


On roads and also in towns where people tend to not pay enough attention
to cyclists I ride with full lumens, day or night. On side roads I
ratchet it down to lower power and on bike paths I usually turn it off
during daylight.

I found that on county roads where I must ride in the lane oncoming
traffic sees me earlier when my light is on full bore. Many drivers then
pull closer to their right so the drivers passing me can pull farther
towards or even over the center line.

I have installer diffusor lenses so people won't be blinded. I would not
ride one mile in traffic without those.


Also, the lights I have are discontinued. The new models are better
because they combine an all-in-one sealed waterproof design with an
optional external power-pack. I greatly prefer an all-in-one design to a
design with a separate power pack, but YMMV.
http://www.lezyne.com/product-led-perf-deca1500i.php.



150 bucks? Yikes!

Aluminum is good though, mine are aluminum as well but cost under $20/each.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #73  
Old February 10th 18, 09:03 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 5,296
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2018-02-09 18:01, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 12:21:15 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-06 20:48, Jeff Liebermann wrote:


[...]


... Note that batteries are tested at a 0.2C discharge, which
yields larger numbers than the usual headlight discharge rate.
The Lezyne Deca 1500XXL claims 1500 lumens, which also seems a
bit high. Assuming 120 lumens/watt at a nominal 3.7V/battery,
that's: 1500 / 120 / 3.7 = 3.4A to run the headlight at full
brightness, or 1.7A per cell. Meanwhile, the cell capacity is
tested at: 0.2 * 2800 = 0.56A


Classic American answer: Then you need a bigger battery. On my road
bike I use eight 18650 cells, four in parallel and two of those
packs in series so the current on the cable to the front light
doesn't exceed 1A, at least not by much.

My MTB has to make do with four cells but except for short bursts
on city streets or fast county roads I drop that down from 8W to 3W
or sometimes even 1.5W in front.

I ride all roads in car traffic with lights, day and night, and
then usually at full bore. Bike paths sans DRL, singletrack with
just the front light lit so dirt bikers see me.


Get a low-watt blinker for daytime if you need a DRL. It's more
conspicuous than a fixed beam, depending on where you are riding. I
only use a DRL during morning hours, rainstorms or overcast
(sometimes). I use a little Nashbar flasher, which is pretty average
for riders around here.



My road bike front light has flash mode but when I tried it and walked
towards my bike it was annoying. Also, a bright constant light gives
more of an impression that some sort or motorcycle may be coming. So
people are more cautious than with "just a cyclist".


... My rain gear is high-viz, and I tend to avoid
all-black like some of my more fashionable cohorts. In daylight, I
see rider jerseys long before lights except under rare
circumstances.


It doesn't rain much out here. I prefer cotton and my wife does not like
high-viz T-shirts. They must be handwashed, else all other laundry in
that load appears with an orange or other tint.

I can't remember the last time I rode with rain gear. I just let myself
get wet or even soaked. When that starts to feel chilly I just step on
it until the water starts "steaming off".


I'm about to ride home, and if (after climbing out of the parking
garage) I decide to ride home on the frustrating cycle path, I will
encounter endless dopes with 1000 lumen lights pointed straight at
me. Oddly, because of the alignment of the cycletrack, I will not be
able to determine whether they are on-coming bicycles in the
side-by-side two-way bike lane or cars out on the road. The brighter
the light, the more it will look like a car -- and not a bike that
will pass me within five inches. One day, I will have a head-on if I
ride that path enough.


They probably don't have diffusor lenses, which they should. With those
installed my lights are roughly as bright as those of motorcycles.


A beam with cut-off and lower intensity would be much more noticeable
as a bike and would not blind me. A 1 watt flasher would make it
even more recognizable. One can justify a bright, less-shaped light
away from other riders, but blasting the retina burners around other
cyclists is unconscionable.


Everyone installing a high-powered LED light on a bicycle, front or
rear, should walk towards their lit bike during daylight and then again
at night. If the light is annoying, do something about it.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #74  
Old February 11th 18, 12:22 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 6,038
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2/10/2018 3:54 PM, Joerg wrote:

On roads and also in towns where people tend to not pay enough attention
to cyclists I ride with full lumens, day or night...
I would not
ride one mile in traffic without those.


We know. "Danger! Danger!"

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #75  
Old February 11th 18, 12:25 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 6,038
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2/10/2018 4:03 PM, Joerg wrote:

Everyone installing a high-powered LED light on a bicycle, front or
rear, should walk towards their lit bike during daylight and then again
at night. If the light is annoying, do something about it.


I agree with this.

But I'd add, before buying high powered LED lights, check out any more
ordinary lights you have in a similar way. Have a friend ride your bike
as you observe. I've done this many times with friends.

Contrary to current myths, you do not need super-powerful lights to be
plenty visible. Any headlight that shows the road sufficiently will be
perfectly visible to motorists, and taillights need far, far less power
to make you safe.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #76  
Old February 11th 18, 12:57 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 6,038
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2/10/2018 3:27 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-08 16:50, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Then I realized my bottom bracket dynamo had snapped on because of the
jolt.
It was a near-perfect test of dynamo drag. Riding with it on cost me
one mile
per hour. Big deal!


If you are willing to give up 1mph this easy, fine. I am not and I have
found a much better solution.


Joerg, your arguments are monuments to inconsistency.

You've rhapsodized about stopping to smell the flowers, stopping to pet
the dogs and horses, taking time to find a nail and rock for a
Flinstone-style chain repair instead of using a chain tool... Yet now,
being slowed one mile per hour is somehow critical??

So is that the only place you ride?? You give the impression of
oh-so-gnarly
riding. Once again, your song changes wildly depending on your argument.


If you had followed more carefully you'd have know that there are two
places I ride a lot: Here in the hills and then down in the Sacramento
Valley. As I wrote many times that valley is huge and very flat. Nearly
all errand rides have to head in that direction because that's where
nearly all stores are.


Yes, and you've given photos and videos of hilly off-road trails, and
said that your mountain bike has to be super-rugged to survive them, so
you've reinforced racks, built stout battery boxes, choose heavy tires
etc. because weight doesn't matter to you.

Perhaps you'd make more sense if you took notes on what you've already
posted, then reviewed them before the next time you post.

Perhaps.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #77  
Old February 11th 18, 01:57 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Posts: 8,281
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2/10/2018 12:01 AM, wrote:
On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 10:35:27 PM UTC+1, sms wrote:
On 2/8/2018 12:21 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-06 20:48, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 10:52:50 -0800, sms
wrote:


[...]


It's a 2 cell 18650 pack with the batteries in parallel, and a
protection circuit board shared between the two cells. The cells are
allegedly 2800mAH, for a total of 5600mAH.

Seems rather high.


Probably a Chinese spec :-)

Just like with lights where there are lumens and then there are Chilumens.


**************** ... Note that batteries are tested at a 0.2C
discharge, which yields larger numbers than the usual headlight
discharge rate.* The Lezyne Deca 1500XXL claims 1500 lumens, which
also seems a bit high.* Assuming 120 lumens/watt at a nominal
3.7V/battery, that's:
*** 1500 / 120 / 3.7 = 3.4A
to run the headlight at full brightness, or 1.7A per cell.
Meanwhile, the cell capacity is tested at:
*** 0.2 * 2800 = 0.56A


Classic American answer: Then you need a bigger battery. On my road bike
I use eight 18650 cells, four in parallel and two of those packs in
series so the current on the cable to the front light doesn't exceed 1A,
at least not by much.


I decided to do run-time tests on my two Lezyne Decadrive 1500xxl lights.

I think that I have never before experienced a light manufacturer that
significantly under-stated run times.

Running both in "Overdrive Race Mode" the run time was much higher than
the manual stated. mtbr.com measured "Overdrive Race Mode" at 1390
lumens, a little less than the claimed 1500 lumens. The manual says 100
minutes in "Overdrive Race Mode."

On the light with the new 5200mAH battery back, one test gave 157
minutes, one 162 minutes.

On the light with the old 5600mAH battery pack, one test gave 193
minutes, one test gave 216 minutes.

I did not run the battery all the way down. When the "10% remaining"
indicator occurred I stopped the test.

I am going to do a third test as well, as soon as the batteries are
recharged.


Did you also measured the light output over time? Otherwise the numbers mean nothing to me.


The entire test was at maximum power and the lights never dimmed. The
light does not automatically reduce output based on remaining battery
capacity, and it's not as smart as a smart phone which tracks battery
performance over time and then throttles back. It might reduce power if
it overheats but it has an excellent thermal solution of finned
aluminum--it does not use a plastic enclosure.
  #78  
Old February 11th 18, 02:25 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
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Posts: 3,967
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On Sat, 10 Feb 2018 19:25:57 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/10/2018 4:03 PM, Joerg wrote:

Everyone installing a high-powered LED light on a bicycle, front or
rear, should walk towards their lit bike during daylight and then again
at night. If the light is annoying, do something about it.


I agree with this.

But I'd add, before buying high powered LED lights, check out any more
ordinary lights you have in a similar way. Have a friend ride your bike
as you observe. I've done this many times with friends.

Contrary to current myths, you do not need super-powerful lights to be
plenty visible. Any headlight that shows the road sufficiently will be
perfectly visible to motorists, and taillights need far, far less power
to make you safe.


I've read the comments about blindingly bright bicycle lights and
always wondered about it. Basically, sitting on my bike my eye line is
higher then the driver of a Toyota - I've checked this a number of
times - thus a light that was blinding to me, sitting on my bike, must
certainly be blinding to a guy driving a Toyota.... which doesn't seem
like a good thing to do, at least blinding the other driver seems
counterproductive to being seen.

What I've always done with bar mounted lights was to set the light
horizontal which puts the beam at almost exactly the same height as
the stop light lenses on my example Toyota Taxi.

So far, at least, I've had no indication that auto drivers didn't see
me, or see me in a timely manner.




--
Cheers,

John B.

  #79  
Old February 11th 18, 12:32 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 248
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On Sunday, February 11, 2018 at 2:57:31 AM UTC+1, sms wrote:
On 2/10/2018 12:01 AM, wrote:
On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 10:35:27 PM UTC+1, sms wrote:
On 2/8/2018 12:21 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-06 20:48, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 10:52:50 -0800, sms
wrote:


[...]


It's a 2 cell 18650 pack with the batteries in parallel, and a
protection circuit board shared between the two cells. The cells are
allegedly 2800mAH, for a total of 5600mAH.

Seems rather high.


Probably a Chinese spec :-)

Just like with lights where there are lumens and then there are Chilumens.


**************** ... Note that batteries are tested at a 0.2C
discharge, which yields larger numbers than the usual headlight
discharge rate.* The Lezyne Deca 1500XXL claims 1500 lumens, which
also seems a bit high.* Assuming 120 lumens/watt at a nominal
3.7V/battery, that's:
*** 1500 / 120 / 3.7 = 3.4A
to run the headlight at full brightness, or 1.7A per cell.
Meanwhile, the cell capacity is tested at:
*** 0.2 * 2800 = 0.56A


Classic American answer: Then you need a bigger battery. On my road bike
I use eight 18650 cells, four in parallel and two of those packs in
series so the current on the cable to the front light doesn't exceed 1A,
at least not by much.

I decided to do run-time tests on my two Lezyne Decadrive 1500xxl lights.

I think that I have never before experienced a light manufacturer that
significantly under-stated run times.

Running both in "Overdrive Race Mode" the run time was much higher than
the manual stated. mtbr.com measured "Overdrive Race Mode" at 1390
lumens, a little less than the claimed 1500 lumens. The manual says 100
minutes in "Overdrive Race Mode."

On the light with the new 5200mAH battery back, one test gave 157
minutes, one 162 minutes.

On the light with the old 5600mAH battery pack, one test gave 193
minutes, one test gave 216 minutes.

I did not run the battery all the way down. When the "10% remaining"
indicator occurred I stopped the test.

I am going to do a third test as well, as soon as the batteries are
recharged.


Did you also measured the light output over time? Otherwise the numbers mean nothing to me.


The entire test was at maximum power and the lights never dimmed. The
light does not automatically reduce output based on remaining battery
capacity, and it's not as smart as a smart phone which tracks battery
performance over time and then throttles back. It might reduce power if
it overheats but it has an excellent thermal solution of finned
aluminum--it does not use a plastic enclosure.


So the light has the same light output at 10% battery capacity as it has at 100% battery capacity. That is not my experience (I did the same test). You must have magic batteries and/or light over there.

Lou
  #80  
Old February 11th 18, 02:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,038
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2/10/2018 9:25 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 10 Feb 2018 19:25:57 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/10/2018 4:03 PM, Joerg wrote:

Everyone installing a high-powered LED light on a bicycle, front or
rear, should walk towards their lit bike during daylight and then again
at night. If the light is annoying, do something about it.


I agree with this.

But I'd add, before buying high powered LED lights, check out any more
ordinary lights you have in a similar way. Have a friend ride your bike
as you observe. I've done this many times with friends.

Contrary to current myths, you do not need super-powerful lights to be
plenty visible. Any headlight that shows the road sufficiently will be
perfectly visible to motorists, and taillights need far, far less power
to make you safe.


I've read the comments about blindingly bright bicycle lights and
always wondered about it. Basically, sitting on my bike my eye line is
higher then the driver of a Toyota - I've checked this a number of
times - thus a light that was blinding to me, sitting on my bike, must
certainly be blinding to a guy driving a Toyota.... which doesn't seem
like a good thing to do, at least blinding the other driver seems
counterproductive to being seen.


Your thought processes are far too sophisticated for many bicyclists.
Their brains switch off after they've uttered the sentence "I want it to
be BRIGHT!"

What I've always done with bar mounted lights was to set the light
horizontal which puts the beam at almost exactly the same height as
the stop light lenses on my example Toyota Taxi.


I use StVZO headlamps, and I aim them so the brightest part of the beam
points just a little below horizontal. That part of the beam probably
hits a level road about 30 feet ahead of me.

I think part of the glare problem is people with round, flashlight-style
beams, instead of beams shaped like vehicle headlights. If they point
the brightest part of a mega-lumen light at the road 30 feet ahead,
there's enough upward spill to blind others.

And further down the thinking scale are those who use a mega-beam but
point it horizontally or even slightly upward. This can only be
explained by a combination of timidity and stupidity.

So far, at least, I've had no indication that auto drivers didn't see
me, or see me in a timely manner.


Same here. Quite the opposite, in fact; motorists have always seemed
extra careful and courteous to me at night, even when I was using only
2.4 Watt incandescent lights.

Yet some claim they'd be dead if they weren't blinding other road users.
:-/


--
- Frank Krygowski
 




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