Looking at 700C Tufo tires

On 03 Nov 2008 21:28:33 GMT, wrote:

What is this "core spun" jargon, an how do they come upon 300 TPI?
That requires a thread of 0.00333" diameter and makes sidewalls 0.070"
thick. That's the thickness of a couple of sheets of copier paper.

Jobst Brandt

Dear Jobst,

"Corespun" and "polycotton" are just the names for the technology used
by several bicycle tire manufacturers to make real, no-fooling ~300
tpi tires, as opposed to the notorious Tufo ads (long since pulled),
which doubled the tpi count by counting two layers per inch.

We've been through the ~300 tpi business befo
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...02260c8c801dd5

Again, here's Torelli's straightforward definition of threads per inch
(not the notorious Tufo marketing definition) and how many threads
per inch Torelli can put into a sidewall:

"TPI, or Threads Per Inch. Tire fabric casings coming with different
thread counts. On a woven fabric casing it may be as low as 20. On a
high-end tubular, it may be as high as 320. Only the threads on one
axis are counted. At least one clincher tire company wanting to have
its tires favorably compared to tubulars has started counting both the
warp and weft (sometimes called "woof"). This is deceptive. Higher
thread-count casings are stronger, lighter, more flexible and more
expensive."
http://www.torelli.com/tech/tires.shtml

Again, the Vittoria page about tpi and their ~300 tpi polycotton
thread tires:

http://www.vittoria.com/index.php?op... 51&Itemid=154

And again, Lennard Zinn's comments on real ~300 tpi versus the
deceptive stuff (the notorious Tufo ads), using Clement and Challenge
tires as an example:

"I [Zinn] would also like to weigh in here, because I find it at best
confusing and at worst deceptive that tire manufacturers do not all
measure the thread count of only a single ply. The 290tpi casing of
Vittoria really is 290 threads per inch on a single ply. The same can
be said for the 300tpi tires introduced this year by Challenge (which,
speaking of Clement, are made on Clement's old equipment in
Thailand)."
http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/...es/7260.0.html

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Carl Fogel wrote:

What is this "corespun" jargon, an how do they come upon 300 TPI?
That requires a thread of 0.00333" diameter and makes sidewalls
0.070" thick. That's the thickness of a couple of sheets of copier
paper.

"Corespun" and "polycotton" are just the names for the technology
used by several bicycle tire manufacturers to make real, no-fooling
~300 tpi tires, as opposed to the notorious Tufo ads (long since
pulled), which doubled the tpi count by counting two layers per
inch.

That doesn't make it any clearer to me. From what process is the term
derived and how does "polycotton" do thyat?

We've been through the ~300 tpi business befo

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...02260c8c801dd5

I have used many tubulars and not even the lightest Clement silk track
tires had 300 TPI. I have never seen a tire with sidewalls as thin as
0.007" and I have worked with many tubulars when they were the only
tires used for racing and any better bicycle as those ridden by riders
in Ray Hosler's slide show, to which gave the link.

Again, here's Torelli's straightforward definition of threads per
inch (not the notorious Tufo marketing definition) and how many
threads per inch Torelli can put into a sidewall:

That may well be, altough the picture on their web site shows a tire
with probably 100 TPI at best for the "high TPI" tire.

"TPI, or Threads Per Inch. Tire fabric casings coming with
different thread counts. On a woven fabric casing it may be as low
as 20. On a high-end tubular, it may be as high as 320. Only the
threads on one axis are counted. At least one clincher tire
company wanting to have its tires favorably compared to tubulars
has started counting both the warp and weft (sometimes called
"woof"). This is deceptive. Higher thread-count casings are
stronger, lighter, more flexible and more expensive."

http://www.torelli.com/tech/tires.shtml

Again, the Vittoria page about tpi and their ~300 tpi polycotton
thread tires:

http://www.vittoria.com/index.php?op... 51&Itemid=154

And again, Lennard Zinn's comments on real ~300 tpi versus the
deceptive stuff (the notorious Tufo ads), using Clement and
Challenge tires as an example:

"I [Zinn] would also like to weigh in here, because I find it at
best confusing and at worst deceptive that tire manufacturers do
not all measure the thread count of only a single ply. The 290tpi
casing of Vittoria really is 290 threads per inch on a single ply.
The same can be said for the 300tpi tires introduced this year by
Challenge (which, speaking of Clement, are made on Clement's old
equipment in Thailand)."

http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/...es/7260.0.html

I think we all understand what real TPI are. My complaint is that
they are not as high as claimed and explaining how to correctly count
threads doesn't change that. I think I explained how tubular casings
are made unambiguously in the FAQ:

http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8b.26.html

that makes clear how the TPI are generated and what they mean.
Casing thickness = 2 x (1/TPI) inches for high performance 2-ply
tires.

Jobst Brandt

On Nov 3, 12:42*pm, bfd wrote:
On Nov 3, 11:32*am, wrote: I didn't see a cross section on that web site. *Can you direct me to
one?

Here's the only picture I've found of the Challenge "Open tubular"
ti

http://tinyurl.com/562n9m

Here's my favorite description of these tires (marketing, ya gotta luv
it!)

"The Challenge Criterium Nerone Clincher is a handmade open tubular
that rides… like a tubular. Like a Clement tubular. Clement tubulars.
Those two words used to leave racers speechless.


Clement Elvezias left me speechless -- because they weighed like a
pound and fell apart. The setas were too expensive, and I didn't like
the spongy ride (yes, I know, inflation pressure is inflation pressure
-- but I could feel the difference. Call me magical). So there,
Clement did not leave me speechless! But I am sure these tires would
make me ride younger and look better, so I am going to buy a pair with
my big middle class tax savings. -- Jay Sixpack Beattie.

On 04 Nov 2008 00:53:00 GMT, wrote:

Carl Fogel wrote:

What is this "corespun" jargon, an how do they come upon 300 TPI?
That requires a thread of 0.00333" diameter and makes sidewalls
0.070" thick. That's the thickness of a couple of sheets of copier
paper.

"Corespun" and "polycotton" are just the names for the technology
used by several bicycle tire manufacturers to make real, no-fooling
~300 tpi tires, as opposed to the notorious Tufo ads (long since
pulled), which doubled the tpi count by counting two layers per
inch.

That doesn't make it any clearer to me. From what process is the term
derived and how does "polycotton" do thyat?

We've been through the ~300 tpi business befo

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...02260c8c801dd5

I have used many tubulars and not even the lightest Clement silk track
tires had 300 TPI. I have never seen a tire with sidewalls as thin as
0.007" and I have worked with many tubulars when they were the only
tires used for racing and any better bicycle as those ridden by riders
in Ray Hosler's slide show, to which gave the link.

Again, here's Torelli's straightforward definition of threads per
inch (not the notorious Tufo marketing definition) and how many
threads per inch Torelli can put into a sidewall:

That may well be, altough the picture on their web site shows a tire
with probably 100 TPI at best for the "high TPI" tire.

"TPI, or Threads Per Inch. Tire fabric casings coming with
different thread counts. On a woven fabric casing it may be as low
as 20. On a high-end tubular, it may be as high as 320. Only the
threads on one axis are counted. At least one clincher tire
company wanting to have its tires favorably compared to tubulars
has started counting both the warp and weft (sometimes called
"woof"). This is deceptive. Higher thread-count casings are
stronger, lighter, more flexible and more expensive."

http://www.torelli.com/tech/tires.shtml

Again, the Vittoria page about tpi and their ~300 tpi polycotton
thread tires:

http://www.vittoria.com/index.php?op... 51&Itemid=154

And again, Lennard Zinn's comments on real ~300 tpi versus the
deceptive stuff (the notorious Tufo ads), using Clement and
Challenge tires as an example:

"I [Zinn] would also like to weigh in here, because I find it at
best confusing and at worst deceptive that tire manufacturers do
not all measure the thread count of only a single ply. The 290tpi
casing of Vittoria really is 290 threads per inch on a single ply.
The same can be said for the 300tpi tires introduced this year by
Challenge (which, speaking of Clement, are made on Clement's old
equipment in Thailand)."

http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/...es/7260.0.html

I think we all understand what real TPI are. My complaint is that
they are not as high as claimed and explaining how to correctly count
threads doesn't change that. I think I explained how tubular casings
are made unambiguously in the FAQ:

http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8b.26.html

that makes clear how the TPI are generated and what they mean.
Casing thickness = 2 x (1/TPI) inches for high performance 2-ply
tires.

Jobst Brandt

Dear Jobst,

I've repeatedly pointed out the specific claims of Torelli, Vittoria,
and Clement that they use a well-known technology known as polycotton
and corespun to make ~300 tpi bicycle tires.

Google polycotton and corespun if you're curious about the process.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Carl Fogel wrote:

What is this "corespun" jargon, an how do they come upon 300 TPI?
That requires a thread of 0.00333" diameter and makes sidewalls
0.070" thick. That's the thickness of a couple of sheets of copier
paper.

"Corespun" and "polycotton" are just the names for the technology
used by several bicycle tire manufacturers to make real,
no-fooling ~300 TPI tires, as opposed to the notorious Tufo ads
(long since pulled), which doubled the TPI count by counting two
layers per inch.

That doesn't make it any clearer to me. From what process is the
term derived and how does "polycotton" do that?

We've been through the ~300 TPI business befo

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...02260c8c801dd5

I have used many tubulars and not even the lightest Clement silk
track tires had 300 TPI. I have never seen a tire with sidewalls
as thin as 0.007" and I have worked with many tubulars when they
were the only tires used for racing and any better bicycle as those
ridden by riders in Ray Hosler's slide show, to which gave the
link.

Again, here's Torelli's straightforward definition of threads per
inch (not the notorious Tufo marketing definition) and how many
threads per inch Torelli can put into a sidewall:

That may well be, although the picture on their web site shows a
tire with probably 100 TPI at best for the "high TPI" tire.

"TPI, or Threads Per Inch. Tire fabric casings coming with
different thread counts. On a woven fabric casing it may be as
low as 20. On a high-end tubular, it may be as high as 320.
Only the threads on one axis are counted. At least one clincher
tire company wanting to have its tires favorably compared to
tubulars has started counting both the warp and weft (sometimes
called "woof"). This is deceptive. Higher thread-count casings
are stronger, lighter, more flexible and more expensive."

http://www.torelli.com/tech/tires.shtml

Again, the Vittoria page about TPI and their ~300 TPI polycotton
thread tires:

http://www.vittoria.com/index.php?op... 51&Itemid=154

And again, Lennard Zinn's comments on real ~300 TPI versus the
deceptive stuff (the notorious Tufo ads), using Clement and
Challenge tires as an example:

"I [Zinn] would also like to weigh in here, because I find it at
best confusing and at worst deceptive that tire manufacturers do
not all measure the thread count of only a single ply. The
290TPI casing of Vittoria really is 290 threads per inch on a
single ply. The same can be said for the 300TPI tires introduced
this year by Challenge (which, speaking of Clement, are made on
Clement's old equipment in Thailand)."

http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/...es/7260.0.html

I think we all understand what real TPI are. My complaint is that
they are not as high as claimed and explaining how to correctly
count threads doesn't change that. I think I explained how tubular
casings are made unambiguously in the FAQ:

http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8b.26.html

that makes clear how the TPI are generated and what they mean.
Casing thickness = 2 x (1/TPI) inches for high performance 2-ply
tires.

I've repeatedly pointed out the specific claims of Torelli,
Vittoria, and Clement that they use a well-known technology known as
polycotton and corespun to make ~300 TPI bicycle tires.

Google polycotton and corespun if you're curious about the process.

I found no reference to these processes with respect to tires. Google
suggested "Poly Cotton"and "Core spun" and other references, none
related to tires or TPI. Please reveal what you could find on this
subject. I know that you are good at web searching. To me these are
cryptic jargon, undefined in any of Vittoria's literature.

Jobst Brandt

wrote in message
...
Kerry Montgomery wrote:

I found this website recently and was looking at their 'Tufo'
tires.

http://www.everybicycletire.com/Default.asp

It seems that there is a 'tubular/clincher' model and wondered if
you have an opinion on this type of tire?

I believe these are also known as "Open Tubulars." There's a
similar discussion going on at the Serotta board. Open Tubulars are
described as:

"Its basically a clincher tire with They are clinchers made using
methods used for tubulars. They take the casing (same stuff as for
tubs) and add a bead. The tread is then glued to the inflated
casing. I have been using Challenge open tubulars for a while, and
they are pretty nice."

Torelli has a decent description of what they a

http://www.torelli.com/tech/tires.shtml

That's not clear and the description of how they are made even
unclearer.

You might look in the FAQ for how round tubular tires a

http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/index.html

Others call these tires nothing more than a marketing ploy to get
people to buy these type of clincher tires at a higher price.

That's what bicycling is all about these days... marketing.

I guess it comes down to what "advantage" do you get? True tubular
tires are supposedly rounder and lighter than comparable clinchers,
especially when you take into account the rims too. Do these "Open
Tubulars" have a "rounder" profile (for better handling)? Is it
lighter? If the answer is no to either, then its a waste of money.
However, if its a yes, then maybe there are some sort of advantage.

I'm not sure what you mean by "rounder". Unless it's a belted radial
casing, its cross section is round from inflation pressure.

Also, I wonder if these tires are as easy to repair as clinchers?
If not, why not just get true tubular, and all of its "benefits?"

I didn't see a cross section on that web site. Can you direct me to
one?

Here's a link to Tufo site showing a cross section of their tubular
clincher (which looks like a tubular with beads added):

http://www.tufonorthamerica.com/tiretypes.php

I suspect this is artists rendition allowance, there being no visible
seam in this tire and no way of making it as an endless toroidal
tube. I doubt that they have such a beast, but then no one has shown
me one either.

"Open tubular" doesn't mean the Tufo style tire to everyone, here's a
link
to DedaT

http://www.dedatre.com/rsc_en.php

That doesn't do much more than not show how it is done.

Unfortunately, it doesn't show a cross section, but I have some of these
tires - they are clincher tires, just supposedly made with the same high
standards and thread count as tubulars.

Here is a link showing a cross section of the DedaTRE - it's the 5th item
down the page:

http://tinyurl.com/5fulk8

No cigar!

Maybe you can describe how the casing is closed after inserting the
tube and how the seam looks. Do you have one of the rim strips shown in:

http://www.dedatre.com/flap_en.php

Jobst Brandt

Jobst,
Here is what appears to be a photograph of a cross-section of a Tufo tubular
clincher:
http://tinyurl.com/5ue7cv
The DedaTRE is a clincher tire, the casing is not closed after inserting the
tube. The topology is the same as any other clincher tire + tube + rim
strip. I happen to use Velox rim strips with the DedaTRE tires I have, and
some ordinary inner tubes. Was just pointing out that the term "open
tubular" does not always refer to something constructed like a Tufo tubular
clincher.
Regarding the question above about how easy it is to repair a Tufo tubular
clincher, here is a link:
http://www.westernbikeworks.com/info...?inf=tubclinch
It says that these tires are essentially not repairable, but can benefit
from sealant that's been injected through the (removable) valve core.
Kerry

On 04 Nov 2008 04:47:34 GMT, wrote:

Carl Fogel wrote:

What is this "corespun" jargon, an how do they come upon 300 TPI?
That requires a thread of 0.00333" diameter and makes sidewalls
0.070" thick. That's the thickness of a couple of sheets of copier
paper.

"Corespun" and "polycotton" are just the names for the technology
used by several bicycle tire manufacturers to make real,
no-fooling ~300 TPI tires, as opposed to the notorious Tufo ads
(long since pulled), which doubled the TPI count by counting two
layers per inch.

That doesn't make it any clearer to me. From what process is the
term derived and how does "polycotton" do that?

We've been through the ~300 TPI business befo

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...02260c8c801dd5

I have used many tubulars and not even the lightest Clement silk
track tires had 300 TPI. I have never seen a tire with sidewalls
as thin as 0.007" and I have worked with many tubulars when they
were the only tires used for racing and any better bicycle as those
ridden by riders in Ray Hosler's slide show, to which gave the
link.

Again, here's Torelli's straightforward definition of threads per
inch (not the notorious Tufo marketing definition) and how many
threads per inch Torelli can put into a sidewall:

That may well be, although the picture on their web site shows a
tire with probably 100 TPI at best for the "high TPI" tire.

"TPI, or Threads Per Inch. Tire fabric casings coming with
different thread counts. On a woven fabric casing it may be as
low as 20. On a high-end tubular, it may be as high as 320.
Only the threads on one axis are counted. At least one clincher
tire company wanting to have its tires favorably compared to
tubulars has started counting both the warp and weft (sometimes
called "woof"). This is deceptive. Higher thread-count casings
are stronger, lighter, more flexible and more expensive."

http://www.torelli.com/tech/tires.shtml

Again, the Vittoria page about TPI and their ~300 TPI polycotton
thread tires:

http://www.vittoria.com/index.php?op... 51&Itemid=154

And again, Lennard Zinn's comments on real ~300 TPI versus the
deceptive stuff (the notorious Tufo ads), using Clement and
Challenge tires as an example:

"I [Zinn] would also like to weigh in here, because I find it at
best confusing and at worst deceptive that tire manufacturers do
not all measure the thread count of only a single ply. The
290TPI casing of Vittoria really is 290 threads per inch on a
single ply. The same can be said for the 300TPI tires introduced
this year by Challenge (which, speaking of Clement, are made on
Clement's old equipment in Thailand)."

http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/...es/7260.0.html

I think we all understand what real TPI are. My complaint is that
they are not as high as claimed and explaining how to correctly
count threads doesn't change that. I think I explained how tubular
casings are made unambiguously in the FAQ:

http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8b.26.html

that makes clear how the TPI are generated and what they mean.
Casing thickness = 2 x (1/TPI) inches for high performance 2-ply
tires.

I've repeatedly pointed out the specific claims of Torelli,
Vittoria, and Clement that they use a well-known technology known as
polycotton and corespun to make ~300 TPI bicycle tires.

Google polycotton and corespun if you're curious about the process.

I found no reference to these processes with respect to tires. Google
suggested "Poly Cotton"and "Core spun" and other references, none
related to tires or TPI. Please reveal what you could find on this
subject. I know that you are good at web searching. To me these are
cryptic jargon, undefined in any of Vittoria's literature.

Jobst Brandt

Dear Jobst,

You're making it too hard.

Polycotton and corespun are thread technology.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

wrote in message
...
On 04 Nov 2008 04:47:34 GMT, wrote:

Carl Fogel wrote:

What is this "corespun" jargon, an how do they come upon 300 TPI?
That requires a thread of 0.00333" diameter and makes sidewalls
0.070" thick. That's the thickness of a couple of sheets of copier
paper.

"Corespun" and "polycotton" are just the names for the technology
used by several bicycle tire manufacturers to make real,
no-fooling ~300 TPI tires, as opposed to the notorious Tufo ads
(long since pulled), which doubled the TPI count by counting two
layers per inch.

That doesn't make it any clearer to me. From what process is the
term derived and how does "polycotton" do that?

We've been through the ~300 TPI business befo

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...02260c8c801dd5

I have used many tubulars and not even the lightest Clement silk
track tires had 300 TPI. I have never seen a tire with sidewalls
as thin as 0.007" and I have worked with many tubulars when they
were the only tires used for racing and any better bicycle as those
ridden by riders in Ray Hosler's slide show, to which gave the
link.

Again, here's Torelli's straightforward definition of threads per
inch (not the notorious Tufo marketing definition) and how many
threads per inch Torelli can put into a sidewall:

That may well be, although the picture on their web site shows a
tire with probably 100 TPI at best for the "high TPI" tire.

"TPI, or Threads Per Inch. Tire fabric casings coming with
different thread counts. On a woven fabric casing it may be as
low as 20. On a high-end tubular, it may be as high as 320.
Only the threads on one axis are counted. At least one clincher
tire company wanting to have its tires favorably compared to
tubulars has started counting both the warp and weft (sometimes
called "woof"). This is deceptive. Higher thread-count casings
are stronger, lighter, more flexible and more expensive."

http://www.torelli.com/tech/tires.shtml

Again, the Vittoria page about TPI and their ~300 TPI polycotton
thread tires:

http://www.vittoria.com/index.php?op... 51&Itemid=154

And again, Lennard Zinn's comments on real ~300 TPI versus the
deceptive stuff (the notorious Tufo ads), using Clement and
Challenge tires as an example:

"I [Zinn] would also like to weigh in here, because I find it at
best confusing and at worst deceptive that tire manufacturers do
not all measure the thread count of only a single ply. The
290TPI casing of Vittoria really is 290 threads per inch on a
single ply. The same can be said for the 300TPI tires introduced
this year by Challenge (which, speaking of Clement, are made on
Clement's old equipment in Thailand)."

http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/...es/7260.0.html

I think we all understand what real TPI are. My complaint is that
they are not as high as claimed and explaining how to correctly
count threads doesn't change that. I think I explained how tubular
casings are made unambiguously in the FAQ:

http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8b.26.html

that makes clear how the TPI are generated and what they mean.
Casing thickness = 2 x (1/TPI) inches for high performance 2-ply
tires.

I've repeatedly pointed out the specific claims of Torelli,
Vittoria, and Clement that they use a well-known technology known as
polycotton and corespun to make ~300 TPI bicycle tires.

Google polycotton and corespun if you're curious about the process.

I found no reference to these processes with respect to tires. Google
suggested "Poly Cotton"and "Core spun" and other references, none
related to tires or TPI. Please reveal what you could find on this
subject. I know that you are good at web searching. To me these are
cryptic jargon, undefined in any of Vittoria's literature.

Jobst Brandt

Dear Jobst,

You're making it too hard.

Polycotton and corespun are thread technology.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Here's the meat of a response from me last August about TPI, as part of a
thread on best handling/stickiest tires.
Kerry

Jobst,
I don't know how what the thread count was claimed to be for a 250g Clement
Criterium tire, or its model designation, but I have a Clement Criterium
Seta Extra that's never been glued that weighs 236g. As best I can tell
using a 30X magnifier and a scale divided into 0.100" segments, that Clement
tire has very close to 100 threads per inch in the outermost layer.
A similar measurement of a Deda TRE Giro D'Italia shows it to also be very
close to 100 threads per inch in the outermost layer. This tire is no longer
at www.dedatre.com, but I think it was advertised as 300 TPI, as the current
RS Corsa is.
No quantifiable ride comparison, but the Giro D'Italias are the replacements
for Clement tubulars on the vintage bike, and they feel more like tubulars
than any other clincher I've tried.
Kerry

On Mon, 3 Nov 2008 22:21:33 -0800, "Kerry Montgomery"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On 04 Nov 2008 04:47:34 GMT, wrote:

Carl Fogel wrote:

What is this "corespun" jargon, an how do they come upon 300 TPI?
That requires a thread of 0.00333" diameter and makes sidewalls
0.070" thick. That's the thickness of a couple of sheets of copier
paper.

"Corespun" and "polycotton" are just the names for the technology
used by several bicycle tire manufacturers to make real,
no-fooling ~300 TPI tires, as opposed to the notorious Tufo ads
(long since pulled), which doubled the TPI count by counting two
layers per inch.

That doesn't make it any clearer to me. From what process is the
term derived and how does "polycotton" do that?

We've been through the ~300 TPI business befo

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...02260c8c801dd5

I have used many tubulars and not even the lightest Clement silk
track tires had 300 TPI. I have never seen a tire with sidewalls
as thin as 0.007" and I have worked with many tubulars when they
were the only tires used for racing and any better bicycle as those
ridden by riders in Ray Hosler's slide show, to which gave the
link.

Again, here's Torelli's straightforward definition of threads per
inch (not the notorious Tufo marketing definition) and how many
threads per inch Torelli can put into a sidewall:

That may well be, although the picture on their web site shows a
tire with probably 100 TPI at best for the "high TPI" tire.

"TPI, or Threads Per Inch. Tire fabric casings coming with
different thread counts. On a woven fabric casing it may be as
low as 20. On a high-end tubular, it may be as high as 320.
Only the threads on one axis are counted. At least one clincher
tire company wanting to have its tires favorably compared to
tubulars has started counting both the warp and weft (sometimes
called "woof"). This is deceptive. Higher thread-count casings
are stronger, lighter, more flexible and more expensive."

http://www.torelli.com/tech/tires.shtml

Again, the Vittoria page about TPI and their ~300 TPI polycotton
thread tires:

http://www.vittoria.com/index.php?op... 51&Itemid=154

And again, Lennard Zinn's comments on real ~300 TPI versus the
deceptive stuff (the notorious Tufo ads), using Clement and
Challenge tires as an example:

"I [Zinn] would also like to weigh in here, because I find it at
best confusing and at worst deceptive that tire manufacturers do
not all measure the thread count of only a single ply. The
290TPI casing of Vittoria really is 290 threads per inch on a
single ply. The same can be said for the 300TPI tires introduced
this year by Challenge (which, speaking of Clement, are made on
Clement's old equipment in Thailand)."

http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/...es/7260.0.html

I think we all understand what real TPI are. My complaint is that
they are not as high as claimed and explaining how to correctly
count threads doesn't change that. I think I explained how tubular
casings are made unambiguously in the FAQ:

http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8b.26.html

that makes clear how the TPI are generated and what they mean.
Casing thickness = 2 x (1/TPI) inches for high performance 2-ply
tires.

I've repeatedly pointed out the specific claims of Torelli,
Vittoria, and Clement that they use a well-known technology known as
polycotton and corespun to make ~300 TPI bicycle tires.

Google polycotton and corespun if you're curious about the process.

I found no reference to these processes with respect to tires. Google
suggested "Poly Cotton"and "Core spun" and other references, none
related to tires or TPI. Please reveal what you could find on this
subject. I know that you are good at web searching. To me these are
cryptic jargon, undefined in any of Vittoria's literature.

Jobst Brandt

Dear Jobst,

You're making it too hard.

Polycotton and corespun are thread technology.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Here's the meat of a response from me last August about TPI, as part of a
thread on best handling/stickiest tires.
Kerry

Jobst,
I don't know how what the thread count was claimed to be for a 250g Clement
Criterium tire, or its model designation, but I have a Clement Criterium
Seta Extra that's never been glued that weighs 236g. As best I can tell
using a 30X magnifier and a scale divided into 0.100" segments, that Clement
tire has very close to 100 threads per inch in the outermost layer.
A similar measurement of a Deda TRE Giro D'Italia shows it to also be very
close to 100 threads per inch in the outermost layer. This tire is no longer
at www.dedatre.com, but I think it was advertised as 300 TPI, as the current
RS Corsa is.
No quantifiable ride comparison, but the Giro D'Italias are the replacements
for Clement tubulars on the vintage bike, and they feel more like tubulars
than any other clincher I've tried.
Kerry

Dear Kerry,

Yes, I remember your post. This was what it sounded like to me:

I don't know what was claimed for tire A . . .

So I measured tire B, which _might_ be similar to tire A.

I _think_ that tire C _might_ have been advertised as being the same
as the newer version, tire D . . .

So I measured tire C to test the claims for tire D.

***

I couldn't think of kindly way to put that, so I'll try to reassure
you a little.

Vitamin C prevents scurvy, so just drink some citrus juice, right?
Limes, lemons, what's the difference?

"By the 1850's, it was deemed preferable to give Admiralty money to
English gentlemen growing limes in the West Indies rather than to
foreign lemon-growers in the Mediterranean. This decision was a
disaster; the supposedly similar fruits in fact retained dramatically
different amounts of vitamin-C, and scurvy returned with a vengeance.
Ships that relied on lime-juice and still suffered from severe scurvy
were all the evidence that was required to damn Lind's
recommendations."
http://www.historyscotland.com/featu...wasalemon.html

The same page points out that an 1850 British polar expedition drank
lemon juice and suffered no scurvy.

But in 1875 another British polar expedition drank lime juice instead
of lemon juice and suffered from scurvy.

In other words, it's tempting to think that two things are alike,
measure one, and make conclusions about the other.

***

Look at this page:

http://www.vittoria.com/index.php?op... 51&Itemid=154

Some posters seem to think that Vittoria is mistaken or lying when
they show 6 photos of the threads on the sidewalls, A-B-C-D-E-F in the
middle of that page labeled:

A B C D E F
320 TPI 290 TPI 220 TPI 120 TPI 60 TPI 26 TPI
Polycotton Polycotton Nylon Nylon Nylon Nylon

Several paragraphs of details follow the photos.

If anyone wants to argue with Vittoria, thye can always get in touch
with Vittoria and ask them for more details.

Or they can get a tire from Vittoria that's got a specific TPI claim
and check it.

Lennard Zinn would be very interested if anyone had some photos that
showed that he had been misled by several different manufacturers.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

On Nov 3, 10:07*pm, "Kerry Montgomery" wrote:
wrote in message

...





Kerry Montgomery wrote:

I found this website recently and was looking at their 'Tufo'
tires.

http://www.everybicycletire.com/Default.asp

It seems that there is a 'tubular/clincher' model and wondered if
you have an opinion on this type of tire?

I believe these are also known as "Open Tubulars." *There's a
similar discussion going on at the Serotta board. Open Tubulars are
described as:

*"Its basically a clincher tire with They are clinchers made using
*methods used for tubulars. They take the casing (same stuff as for
*tubs) and add a bead. The tread is then glued to the inflated
*casing. *I have been using Challenge open tubulars for a while, and
*they are pretty nice."

Torelli has a decent description of what they a

http://www.torelli.com/tech/tires.shtml

That's not clear and the description of how they are made even
unclearer.

You might look in the FAQ for how round tubular tires a

http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/index.html

Others call these tires nothing more than a marketing ploy to get
people to buy these type of clincher tires at a higher price.

That's what bicycling is all about these days... marketing.

I guess it comes down to what "advantage" do you get? *True tubular
tires are supposedly rounder and lighter than comparable clinchers,
especially when you take into account the rims too. *Do these "Open
Tubulars" have a "rounder" profile (for better handling)? *Is it
lighter? If the answer is no to either, then its a waste of money.
However, if its a yes, then maybe there are some sort of advantage.

I'm not sure what you mean by "rounder". *Unless it's a belted radial
casing, its cross section is round from inflation pressure.

Also, I wonder if these tires are as easy to repair as clinchers?
If not, why not just get true tubular, and all of its "benefits?"

I didn't see a cross section on that web site. *Can you direct me to
one?

Here's a link to Tufo site showing *a cross section of their tubular
clincher (which looks like a tubular with beads added):

http://www.tufonorthamerica.com/tiretypes.php

I suspect this is artists rendition allowance, there being no visible
seam in this tire and no way of making it as an endless toroidal
tube. *I doubt that they have such a beast, but then no one has shown
me one either.

"Open tubular" doesn't mean the Tufo style tire to everyone, here's a
link
to DedaT

http://www.dedatre.com/rsc_en.php

That doesn't do much more than not show how it is done.

Unfortunately, it doesn't show a cross section, but I have some of these
tires - they are clincher tires, just supposedly made with the same high
standards and thread count as tubulars.

Here is a link showing a cross section of the DedaTRE - it's the 5th item
down the page:

http://tinyurl.com/5fulk8

No cigar!

Maybe you can describe how the casing is closed after inserting the
tube and how the seam looks. *Do you have one of the rim strips shown in:

http://www.dedatre.com/flap_en.php

Jobst Brandt

Jobst,
Here is what appears to be a photograph of a cross-section of a Tufo tubular
clincher:http://tinyurl.com/5ue7cv
The DedaTRE is a clincher tire, the casing is not closed after inserting the
tube. The topology is the same as any other clincher tire + tube + rim
strip. I happen to use Velox rim strips with the DedaTRE tires I have, and
some ordinary inner tubes. Was just pointing out that the term "open
tubular" does not always refer to something constructed like a Tufo tubular
clincher.
Regarding the question above about how easy it is to repair a Tufo tubular
clincher, here is a link:http://www.westernbikeworks.com/info...?inf=tubclinch
It says that these tires are essentially not repairable, but can benefit
from sealant that's been injected through the (removable) valve core.

I still don't get it. Why bother? Wouldn't a regular tubular be
"lighter?" Also, a regular tubular can be repaired. Alternatively,
could you use this sealant in a regular tubular? If so, that would
probably be the best of both worlds.

About the only advantage these tubular clinchers (open tubulars?) have
over regular tubulars is that no glue is needed. However, the lighter
tubular rim with regular tubulars should attract the weight weenies.