At least 5 dead , 9 injured after pickup truck hits bicyclists from BEHIND

On 10/06/2016 3:43 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 12:13, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 3:07:28 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 11:42, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 2:02 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 10:53, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 1:12 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 10:02, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 12:43 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 07:54, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 10:28 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-07 21:56, Sir Ridesalot wrote:



"KALAMAZOO COUNTY, Mich. (NEWSCHANNEL 3) -
Newschannel 3 has learned that at least five
people have been killed on North Westnedge, near
Markin Glen Park, just north of Kalamazoo, after
a group of bicyclists were struck from behind by
a blue Chevy pickup truck.

It happened around 6:30 p.m. Tuesday evening.

All of those killed were bicyclists riding down
the road when a pickup truck came up behind them,
and struck the group."

More here

http://wwmt.com/news/local/multiple-...illed-in-crash




Condolences to the victims' families and friends.


Very sad.

One question is whether we will ever hear the
results of the investigation. Such as lane
positions, lighting of the riders, visibility,
level of intoxication of the driver, speed of the
truck, and so on.

Without such follow-up it's hard to learn from
these case. I have even seen people flat-out deny
that it was a non-intersection lane case in a
similar deadly crash here in Sacramento. No
follow-up info as usual, zero, but it all points to
a cyclist having been in the left lane (two per
direction) preparing to turn off somewhere when a
drunk driver in a truck smashed into her and killed
her.


Read the report. It was not an intersection and they
were apparently on the shoulder.


Please quote where it said that.



It was stated in the original report posted here.


It was not. See link above. Please quote.

[...]


http://ktla.com/2016/06/07/at-least-...s-in-michigan/







Sorry, Andrew Muzi posted this at the same time. It's in this one.


Ok, thanks. If the county attorney said that he must know since
he likely has access to the police report.


And regardless, they were hit from behind on a straight
road.


Sure. But there are questions. Did the probably intoxicated
driver not see them at all? Did he see them too late? Did the
last rider have a highly visible rear light? Or did the driver
deliberately run into them?

Some of those questions could be answered at this time.


All of your questions make it sound like the victims could or
should have have prevented this. Even if you buy the red blinky
in the daytime thing, that's bull****. The driver is solely
responsible for hitting someone from behind.


Sure he is. I never disputed that. The question is whether at least
some of those situations can be prevented.

Here we have a road that is straight and lined with thick foliage.
Perfect place for intoxicated drivers to fall into a daze. Yes, it
is the truck driver's fault. But it is always good on a bicycle to
stick out. That's what a bright blinking light does and that's why
both my bikes have that. Actually several each.



What is there to learn here? Maybe if it was drunk
driving and the guy had priors or maybe if the guy
was psychotic and off his meds. But from the riders'
points of view what is there to learn?


A lot. Just one example: I found that the number of
times I got into critical situations because of
inattentive (or possibly soused) drivers has greatly
dropped off since I have bright lighting. One of the
reasons is simple. If a driver, especially a drunk one,
sees red flashing lights in the distance one of the
first reactions will likely be "Oh no, cops!" which in
many cases will make them slow down.



Give me a ****ing break. At least 14 people in front of
him on bikes, and he would have seen them if only they
had a light?


Quite possibly yes. On a straight stretch of road drivers
often see only the last rider or maybe the last 2-3. It is
important to know these things.

My bright lights are a reason why I am sometimes asked to
ride last in a group. Because that affords the whole group
better safety.


Having you behind them? Maybe your jams are too loud when
you are in front of them. - sorry, could not resist.


Not sure what you mean with jams.


Music.


Usually turned off when around others. But it has happened that
someone snuck up and wanted to listen to the Bluegrass tunes.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

If a driver on a clear road in daylight on a straight road with good
sight lines can't see a group of NINE bicyclists ahead of his vehicle
there's no way in hell that he's going to see a blinking red light!


Sure there is. First, nine cyclists are not riding abreast but most
likely single file. So the driver sees only one, or in his case possible
just one small fuzzy "obstruction" because he may have been intoxicated.
Road bikers ride at constant speed, close together and don't swerve much
so they can look like a static object to soused drivers.

A bright red blinking light is way different. It changes pattern, so
will be noticed much earlier. It is also often mistook for police
cruiser lights. A cop or maybe a sobriety checkpoint is the absolute
nightmare for an intoxicated driver and will get their attention unless
they are already in complete stupor.


The state Senator has a very interesting comment.

http://wincountry.com/news/articles/...-of-kalamazoo/


"UPDATE - 6/8 at 10:05 a.m.: State Sen. Margaret O' Brien,
R-Portage, has released a statement:

"Kalamazoo County has again experienced a senseless tragedy. Nine
people were randomly attacked while enjoying a bicycle ride. No
explanation can bring back the lives of the five people killed."


But not much news in terms of new facts or investigation results.
Whether it was a deliberate attack is speculation at this point. It's
possible though. There are people who hate cyclists and the threshold
towards acting out on that hate can drop with alcohol and drugs.


Well the choice of words "randomly attacked" sort of implies intent, no?

On 10/06/2016 3:34 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 11:54, jbeattie wrote:
snip

The change of that happening while riding on roads is reduced with
bright lighting. Hence I ride with daytime lights. Always.

O.K. Just a digression, but I was riding to work today on a busy
road with lots of trucks, buses and cars -- I often post the video of
SW Barbur Boulevard with those narrow bridges that put cyclists in
the lane. PDOT installed flashers at the bridges with induction loop
switches that, for some reason, my plastic Roubaix (which I rode
today) will not trip.
http://bikeportland.org/2014/03/07/o...xt-week-102600


I didn't trip the flashers this morning, and you know what, I was
kind of scared. I was going over this narrow bridge with big trucks
and cars and buses without any rear flasher and without the benefit
of the big, new flashers. I could die! And then I thought, hey,
I've been riding on this road for 32 years without giant flashers.
I'm wearing a neon yellow/green rain jersey. I'm riding
conspicuously. 20 years ago, I didn't have any bike facilities and
rode a fog line all the way to downtown.


That is probably what some of the Kalamazoo riders thought as well.
Until Tuesday :-(

It's the same argument that people used when they were ranting against
having to wear safety belts in their cars. After all, grandpa didn't
even have belts in his DeSoto and he lived to a ripe old age.


Pick some other case to make your point about DRLs.

snip

On 2016-06-10 13:00, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 3:43 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 12:13, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


[...]

The state Senator has a very interesting comment.

http://wincountry.com/news/articles/...-of-kalamazoo/



"UPDATE - 6/8 at 10:05 a.m.: State Sen. Margaret O' Brien,
R-Portage, has released a statement:

"Kalamazoo County has again experienced a senseless tragedy. Nine
people were randomly attacked while enjoying a bicycle ride. No
explanation can bring back the lives of the five people killed."


But not much news in terms of new facts or investigation results.
Whether it was a deliberate attack is speculation at this point. It's
possible though. There are people who hate cyclists and the threshold
towards acting out on that hate can drop with alcohol and drugs.


Well the choice of words "randomly attacked" sort of implies intent, no?


And on exactly what proof did she based that?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 12:34:05 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 11:54, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 10:43:00 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 10:40, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 1:17:17 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 10:04, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/10/2016 12:43 PM, Joerg wrote:
I found that the number of times I got into critical
situations because of inattentive (or possibly soused)
drivers has greatly dropped off since I have bright
lighting. One of the reasons is simple. If a driver,
especially a drunk one, sees red flashing lights in the
distance one of the first reactions will likely be "Oh no,
cops!" which in many cases will make them slow down.

Sounds like you must have gotten into many "critical
situations" before. Otherwise you couldn't know they had
dropped off greatly.


I hear a car coming from the rear and it is very easy to
discern whether the braking process is a hard one or a normal
one. Now they are almost all normal, typically where people
just let go of the accelerator pedal.


To me, that's very odd. I can't remember the last time I got
in a "critical situation" on my bike. Perhaps that has
something to do with riding style?


No, with the roads out here and I am not the only one. I've met
people who even invested in Dinotte rear lights to the tune of
more than $100 and reported similar results.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

What if the car/truck is coming up behind you and NOT braking?


You typically die or get hurt badly. Hence my preference for
segregated bike paths.

Or the truck passes. Do you not get passed by trucks?


Sure they do. But sometimes they can't and then I prefer my lights to
alert them in a timely manner that I am in the lane.


The change of that happening while riding on roads is reduced with
bright lighting. Hence I ride with daytime lights. Always.

O.K. Just a digression, but I was riding to work today on a busy
road with lots of trucks, buses and cars -- I often post the video of
SW Barbur Boulevard with those narrow bridges that put cyclists in
the lane. PDOT installed flashers at the bridges with induction loop
switches that, for some reason, my plastic Roubaix (which I rode
today) will not trip.
http://bikeportland.org/2014/03/07/o...xt-week-102600

I didn't trip the flashers this morning, and you know what, I was
kind of scared. I was going over this narrow bridge with big trucks
and cars and buses without any rear flasher and without the benefit
of the big, new flashers. I could die! And then I thought, hey,
I've been riding on this road for 32 years without giant flashers.
I'm wearing a neon yellow/green rain jersey. I'm riding
conspicuously. 20 years ago, I didn't have any bike facilities and
rode a fog line all the way to downtown.


That is probably what some of the Kalamazoo riders thought as well.
Until Tuesday :-(

It's the same argument that people used when they were ranting against
having to wear safety belts in their cars. After all, grandpa didn't
even have belts in his DeSoto and he lived to a ripe old age.

Hardly. We're not talking about easily implemented safety improvements like seat-belts. You're suggesting a separate, parallel transportation system and that it is too scary and too unsafe to ride without one. If we all lived our lives according to that paradigm, we would quit riding.

I don't know of any country, planet or universe where there is an entirely separate transportation system just for bicycles. Even in the bike heaven of Amsterdam, a lot of the facilities are on the road or within ten feet of the road and separated by curbs or medians and other minor obstacles easily overcome by determined drunks.

-- Jay Beattie.

-- Jay Beattie

Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 13:00, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 3:43 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 12:13, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


[...]

The state Senator has a very interesting comment.

http://wincountry.com/news/articles/...-of-kalamazoo/



"UPDATE - 6/8 at 10:05 a.m.: State Sen. Margaret O' Brien,
R-Portage, has released a statement:

"Kalamazoo County has again experienced a senseless tragedy. Nine
people were randomly attacked while enjoying a bicycle ride. No
explanation can bring back the lives of the five people killed."


But not much news in terms of new facts or investigation results.
Whether it was a deliberate attack is speculation at this point. It's
possible though. There are people who hate cyclists and the threshold
towards acting out on that hate can drop with alcohol and drugs.


Well the choice of words "randomly attacked" sort of implies intent, no?


And on exactly what proof did she based that?


I don't know. On what proof do you base your DRL comment having any
relevance?

--
duane

On 2016-06-10 14:40, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 12:34:05 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 11:54, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 10:43:00 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 10:40, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 1:17:17 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 10:04, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/10/2016 12:43 PM, Joerg wrote:
I found that the number of times I got into critical
situations because of inattentive (or possibly soused)
drivers has greatly dropped off since I have bright
lighting. One of the reasons is simple. If a driver,
especially a drunk one, sees red flashing lights in
the distance one of the first reactions will likely be
"Oh no, cops!" which in many cases will make them slow
down.

Sounds like you must have gotten into many "critical
situations" before. Otherwise you couldn't know they had
dropped off greatly.


I hear a car coming from the rear and it is very easy to
discern whether the braking process is a hard one or a
normal one. Now they are almost all normal, typically where
people just let go of the accelerator pedal.


To me, that's very odd. I can't remember the last time I
got in a "critical situation" on my bike. Perhaps that
has something to do with riding style?


No, with the roads out here and I am not the only one. I've
met people who even invested in Dinotte rear lights to the
tune of more than $100 and reported similar results.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

What if the car/truck is coming up behind you and NOT
braking?


You typically die or get hurt badly. Hence my preference for
segregated bike paths.

Or the truck passes. Do you not get passed by trucks?


Sure they do. But sometimes they can't and then I prefer my lights
to alert them in a timely manner that I am in the lane.


The change of that happening while riding on roads is reduced
with bright lighting. Hence I ride with daytime lights.
Always.

O.K. Just a digression, but I was riding to work today on a
busy road with lots of trucks, buses and cars -- I often post the
video of SW Barbur Boulevard with those narrow bridges that put
cyclists in the lane. PDOT installed flashers at the bridges
with induction loop switches that, for some reason, my plastic
Roubaix (which I rode today) will not trip.
http://bikeportland.org/2014/03/07/o...xt-week-102600



I didn't trip the flashers this morning, and you know what, I was
kind of scared. I was going over this narrow bridge with big
trucks and cars and buses without any rear flasher and without
the benefit of the big, new flashers. I could die! And then I
thought, hey, I've been riding on this road for 32 years without
giant flashers. I'm wearing a neon yellow/green rain jersey. I'm
riding conspicuously. 20 years ago, I didn't have any bike
facilities and rode a fog line all the way to downtown.


That is probably what some of the Kalamazoo riders thought as
well. Until Tuesday :-(

It's the same argument that people used when they were ranting
against having to wear safety belts in their cars. After all,
grandpa didn't even have belts in his DeSoto and he lived to a ripe
old age.

Hardly. We're not talking about easily implemented safety
improvements like seat-belts. You're suggesting a separate, parallel
transportation system and that it is too scary and too unsafe to ride
without one. If we all lived our lives according to that paradigm, we
would quit riding.


That is a risk we all have to take and I do that weekly. There is no
bike path system between here and El Dorado Hills and Folsom. It starts
in Folsom and from there on west it is very good. So what people do is
truck their bikes to Folsom, unload and commute the rest of the way. If
I had to commute daily I'd probably do the same. For once or twice a
week I just clench my teeth and ride but only with the ship brightly lit.


I don't know of any country, planet or universe where there is an
entirely separate transportation system just for bicycles. Even in
the bike heaven of Amsterdam, a lot of the facilities are on the road
or within ten feet of the road and separated by curbs or medians and
other minor obstacles easily overcome by determined drunks.


I lived in the Netherlands for more than five years and racked up around
40000 miles on bicycles while there, some of those miles in the neighbor
countries Germany and Belgium. That might sound like a lot but not to
other people living there. The contrast between these countries could
not have been larger. All major roads wherever I ventured in the
Netherlands had nice bike paths. In Germany there was the occasional
bike path and in Belgium, almost nada.

Yeah, theoretically a car driver could spin out, slide across some turf
and onto the bike path. But that is rare. I cannot remember any
accidents like the one in this thread. I felt super safe there as a
cyclist. After moving to Germany, not anymore and so I became a weekend
and evening rider. After moving to the US I quit riding altogether for
15 years. Now that at least some bike infrastructure started to mature I
began riding again, a lot. This is all not just my opinion but also that
of the vast majority of cyclists I know. And I know quite a few.

Investing money into bike infrastructure is very much justified. For
one, it is much cheaper per mile than motor vehicle infrastructure.
Secondly, building massive car-only freeways but almost nothing for
cyclists makes no sense. Lcukily Claifornia lawmakers have noticed that
and reacted accordingly (no more major road overhauls without putting in
at least bike lanes).

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2016-06-10 14:46, Duane wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 13:00, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 3:43 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 12:13, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


[...]

The state Senator has a very interesting comment.

http://wincountry.com/news/articles/...-of-kalamazoo/



"UPDATE - 6/8 at 10:05 a.m.: State Sen. Margaret O' Brien,
R-Portage, has released a statement:

"Kalamazoo County has again experienced a senseless tragedy. Nine
people were randomly attacked while enjoying a bicycle ride. No
explanation can bring back the lives of the five people killed."


But not much news in terms of new facts or investigation results.
Whether it was a deliberate attack is speculation at this point. It's
possible though. There are people who hate cyclists and the threshold
towards acting out on that hate can drop with alcohol and drugs.


Well the choice of words "randomly attacked" sort of implies intent, no?


And on exactly what proof did she based that?


I don't know. On what proof do you base your DRL comment having any
relevance?


I didn't, because it it just a comment, no more. All I was saying is
that it does make sense to investigate whether or not the last rider had
a flashing rear light. Everyone knows that this greatly increases the
visibility of a cyclist.

"Random attack" is an accusation. It might be true and what this driver
did was despicable but still, without proof I would never make an
accusation like that.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 14:46, Duane wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 13:00, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 3:43 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 12:13, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


[...]

The state Senator has a very interesting comment.

http://wincountry.com/news/articles/...-of-kalamazoo/



"UPDATE - 6/8 at 10:05 a.m.: State Sen. Margaret O' Brien,
R-Portage, has released a statement:

"Kalamazoo County has again experienced a senseless tragedy. Nine
people were randomly attacked while enjoying a bicycle ride. No
explanation can bring back the lives of the five people killed."


But not much news in terms of new facts or investigation results.
Whether it was a deliberate attack is speculation at this point. It's
possible though. There are people who hate cyclists and the threshold
towards acting out on that hate can drop with alcohol and drugs.


Well the choice of words "randomly attacked" sort of implies intent, no?


And on exactly what proof did she based that?


I don't know. On what proof do you base your DRL comment having any
relevance?


I didn't, because it it just a comment, no more. All I was saying is
that it does make sense to investigate whether or not the last rider had
a flashing rear light. Everyone knows that this greatly increases the
visibility of a cyclist.


It makes no sense at all to attribute negligence to the victims here.

"Random attack" is an accusation. It might be true and what this driver
did was despicable but still, without proof I would never make an
accusation like that.


Chances are a state senator wouldn't either.

--
duane

On 2016-06-10 15:17, Duane wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 14:46, Duane wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 13:00, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 3:43 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 12:13, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


[...]

The state Senator has a very interesting comment.

http://wincountry.com/news/articles/...-of-kalamazoo/



"UPDATE - 6/8 at 10:05 a.m.: State Sen. Margaret O' Brien,
R-Portage, has released a statement:

"Kalamazoo County has again experienced a senseless tragedy. Nine
people were randomly attacked while enjoying a bicycle ride. No
explanation can bring back the lives of the five people killed."


But not much news in terms of new facts or investigation results.
Whether it was a deliberate attack is speculation at this point. It's
possible though. There are people who hate cyclists and the threshold
towards acting out on that hate can drop with alcohol and drugs.


Well the choice of words "randomly attacked" sort of implies intent, no?


And on exactly what proof did she based that?


I don't know. On what proof do you base your DRL comment having any
relevance?


I didn't, because it it just a comment, no more. All I was saying is
that it does make sense to investigate whether or not the last rider had
a flashing rear light. Everyone knows that this greatly increases the
visibility of a cyclist.


It makes no sense at all to attribute negligence to the victims here.


And where have I done that?


"Random attack" is an accusation. It might be true and what this driver
did was despicable but still, without proof I would never make an
accusation like that.


Chances are a state senator wouldn't either.


That remains to be seen. There was no mention of any statement by the
perpetrator to that effect.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 15:17, Duane wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 14:46, Duane wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 13:00, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 3:43 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 12:13, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


[...]

The state Senator has a very interesting comment.

http://wincountry.com/news/articles/...-of-kalamazoo/



"UPDATE - 6/8 at 10:05 a.m.: State Sen. Margaret O' Brien,
R-Portage, has released a statement:

"Kalamazoo County has again experienced a senseless tragedy. Nine
people were randomly attacked while enjoying a bicycle ride. No
explanation can bring back the lives of the five people killed."


But not much news in terms of new facts or investigation results.
Whether it was a deliberate attack is speculation at this point. It's
possible though. There are people who hate cyclists and the threshold
towards acting out on that hate can drop with alcohol and drugs.


Well the choice of words "randomly attacked" sort of implies intent, no?


And on exactly what proof did she based that?


I don't know. On what proof do you base your DRL comment having any
relevance?


I didn't, because it it just a comment, no more. All I was saying is
that it does make sense to investigate whether or not the last rider had
a flashing rear light. Everyone knows that this greatly increases the
visibility of a cyclist.


It makes no sense at all to attribute negligence to the victims here.


And where have I done that?


You're saying if they were using lights they would have greatly increased
their visibility. Don't you see the inference there?


"Random attack" is an accusation. It might be true and what this driver
did was despicable but still, without proof I would never make an
accusation like that.


Chances are a state senator wouldn't either.


That remains to be seen. There was no mention of any statement by the
perpetrator to that effect.


There was no mention of his being drunk either. Personally as I said to
begin with, it would only affect the difference between first and second
degree murder.

Looking at that wide smooth shoulder, I can tell you that if that was my
group we would have been riding there and NONE of us would have had lights
on at 6:30 on a summer afternoon. And half of us would now be dead. Lights
or no lights. Make your point somewhere else. The victims here in no way
contributed to this other than by riding their bikes.

--
duane