At least 5 dead , 9 injured after pickup truck hits bicyclists from BEHIND

On 6/10/2016 6:42 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 15:58, Duane wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 15:39, Duane wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 15:17, Duane wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 14:46, Duane wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 13:00, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 3:43 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 12:13, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

-snippity snip-
He's guilty in either case.

It's got nothing to do with it. One shall not make
accusations until proven. So far all we know is that he
negligently killed and hurt people. Even people who do such
evil things have the right to due process. The times of
lynch mobs are long gone.

"Let's hang him first, then we can have a trial"
-Governor Rob Blagojevich, 2009

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sat, 11 Jun 2016 06:54:08 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 6/10/2016 6:42 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 15:58, Duane wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 15:39, Duane wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 15:17, Duane wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 14:46, Duane wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 13:00, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 3:43 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 12:13, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

-snippity snip-
He's guilty in either case.

It's got nothing to do with it. One shall not make
accusations until proven. So far all we know is that he
negligently killed and hurt people. Even people who do such
evil things have the right to due process. The times of
lynch mobs are long gone.

"Let's hang him first, then we can have a trial"
-Governor Rob Blagojevich, 2009

The newly elected president of the Philippines is encouraging citizens
to kill criminals. He effectively stated that he supports vigilantism
in a nationally-televised speech, and that "If he fights, and he
fights to the death, you can kill him".
--
cheers,

John B.

On 2016-06-10 17:38, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 3:05:37 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 14:40, jbeattie wrote:

[...]


I don't know of any country, planet or universe where there is
an entirely separate transportation system just for bicycles.
Even in the bike heaven of Amsterdam, a lot of the facilities are
on the road or within ten feet of the road and separated by curbs
or medians and other minor obstacles easily overcome by
determined drunks.


I lived in the Netherlands for more than five years and racked up
around 40000 miles on bicycles while there, some of those miles in
the neighbor countries Germany and Belgium. That might sound like a
lot but not to other people living there. The contrast between
these countries could not have been larger. All major roads
wherever I ventured in the Netherlands had nice bike paths. In
Germany there was the occasional bike path and in Belgium, almost
nada.

Yeah, theoretically a car driver could spin out, slide across some
turf and onto the bike path. But that is rare. I cannot remember
any accidents like the one in this thread. I felt super safe there
as a cyclist. After moving to Germany, not anymore and so I became
a weekend and evening rider. After moving to the US I quit riding
altogether for 15 years. Now that at least some bike infrastructure
started to mature I began riding again, a lot. This is all not just
my opinion but also that of the vast majority of cyclists I know.
And I know quite a few.

The ten zillion cyclists around here seem to manage on traffic calmed
streets and in bike lanes (sometimes super-wide bike lanes)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bikepo...8621?ytcheck=1
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/26749146761/ That's every
day traffic. Eeek . . . a truck!
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/4951771834/


That looks all fine. We've got nothing like that here in town, just roads.


My side of town is less facility intensive.
http://tinyurl.com/jy3uzhb


That I would not enjoy at all. I'll do it sometimes but grudgingly. If a
whole swath of land is like that as it was here until a few years ago I
use the car for errands instead of the bike.


That's where the flasher didn't go off
for me. http://tinyurl.com/hug7wvu http://tinyurl.com/hug7wvu


That's ok. Cyclists got a wide shoulder and have to weave in to
circumvent a little obstruction. No big deal.


... Here's
something scary for you, on my way to work, I look over my shoulder
before hitting the first bridge, and this is what I see:
http://tinyurl.com/j4hr87h It's hair raising, super scary and
impossible to ride -- except that about a zillion people do it every
day.


There's enough space. I ride one of those every week except we've got
less space. One of the sections:

https://goo.gl/maps/bMtGtUzWpam

But during the week there are big cement and gravel trucks because of a
cement business being located here. The cement guys have to ride on time
because their load can only have a certain number of drum rotations
until they get to the pouring location.


I also take little goat roads over the hills or a less strenuous
route with a bike lane over lower, rolling hills.
http://tinyurl.com/gugmzl8 That's a nice route, but the sinage
requires you to ride on your head in places:
http://tinyurl.com/zc5lhl5


Those are luxurious compared to many of ours. The Portland area is way
more bike-friendly than our area. Until you get to Folsom where that
attitute changes.

If you ride long roads out here that have no shoulder but fast traffic
this or worse happens regularly:

http://fox40.com/2016/02/27/family-o...g-hit-and-run/

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2016-06-10 18:07, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Joerg:
But it is always good on a bicycle to stick
out. That's what a bright blinking light does and that's why both my
bikes have that. Actually several each.

In a Philadelphia (PA - USA) newspaper article they quoted a New Jersey
State Highway Patrolman as referring to tail lights on a car parked on
the shoulder as "Drunk Magnets".


What supposedly attracts them even more is the up and down motion of
pedals, especially when the yellow reflectors in there throw back some
light. However, if you have something like this light on my rod bike
(mine is not from PWD though) most people think there's a cop car in the
distance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvWjLbgling

It gets their attention and that is the whole purpose. Of course, none
of this helps if an intoxicated person has reached the state of almost
complete stupor and gets behind the steering wheel.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Michigan: Charges in Deaths of Cyclists

A prosecutor filed murder charges on Thursday against the driver of a pickup truck that struck a group of bicyclists, killing five of them and seriously injuring four others. The prosecutor, Jeffrey Getting of Kalamzoo County, charged the driver, Charles Pickett Jr., 50, of Battle Creek, with five counts of second-degree murder and four of reckless driving in the crash Tuesday in Cooper Township, north of Kalamazoo. The bicyclists ranged in age from 40 to 74 and were part of a group that called itself the Chain Gang. The cyclists were five miles into a weekly 30-mile ride when they were struck from behind on a road in the western Michigan countryside. The police said that officers had received complaints about a pickup being driven erratically and were searching for it minutes before the crash. (AP)

wrote:


Michigan: Charges in Deaths of Cyclists

A prosecutor filed murder charges on Thursday against the driver of a
pickup truck that struck a group of bicyclists, killing five of them and
seriously injuring four others. The prosecutor, Jeffrey Getting of
Kalamzoo County, charged the driver, Charles Pickett Jr., 50, of Battle
Creek, with five counts of second-degree murder and four of reckless
driving in the crash Tuesday in Cooper Township, north of Kalamazoo. The
bicyclists ranged in age from 40 to 74 and were part of a group that
called itself the Chain Gang. The cyclists were five miles into a weekly
30-mile ride when they were struck from behind on a road in the western
Michigan countryside. The police said that officers had received
complaints about a pickup being driven erratically and were searching for
it minutes before the crash. (AP)


No DUI.

Jay can clarify but I find:

Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as: 1) an intentional killing
that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of
passion"; or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's
obvious lack of concern for human life.

So the woman that called this an attack appears to have had reason to do
so.


--
duane

On 2016-06-11 12:36, Duane wrote:
wrote:


Michigan: Charges in Deaths of Cyclists

A prosecutor filed murder charges on Thursday against the driver of a
pickup truck that struck a group of bicyclists, killing five of them and
seriously injuring four others. The prosecutor, Jeffrey Getting of
Kalamzoo County, charged the driver, Charles Pickett Jr., 50, of Battle
Creek, with five counts of second-degree murder and four of reckless
driving in the crash Tuesday in Cooper Township, north of Kalamazoo. The
bicyclists ranged in age from 40 to 74 and were part of a group that
called itself the Chain Gang. The cyclists were five miles into a weekly
30-mile ride when they were struck from behind on a road in the western
Michigan countryside. The police said that officers had received
complaints about a pickup being driven erratically and were searching for
it minutes before the crash. (AP)


No DUI.

Jay can clarify but I find:

Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as: 1) an intentional killing
that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of
passion"; or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's
obvious lack of concern for human life.

So the woman that called this an attack appears to have had reason to do
so.


A murder charge is not a murder conviction.

While I find that driver's behavior despicable we still have the concept
"innocent until proven guilty" in the US. One can publicly call it
attack or murder once that is proven beyond a reasonable doubt that it
was indeed the case. Before such process it is IMO not appropriate to do so.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Saturday, June 11, 2016 at 12:36:53 PM UTC-7, Duane wrote:
wrote:


Michigan: Charges in Deaths of Cyclists

A prosecutor filed murder charges on Thursday against the driver of a
pickup truck that struck a group of bicyclists, killing five of them and
seriously injuring four others. The prosecutor, Jeffrey Getting of
Kalamzoo County, charged the driver, Charles Pickett Jr., 50, of Battle
Creek, with five counts of second-degree murder and four of reckless
driving in the crash Tuesday in Cooper Township, north of Kalamazoo. The
bicyclists ranged in age from 40 to 74 and were part of a group that
called itself the Chain Gang. The cyclists were five miles into a weekly
30-mile ride when they were struck from behind on a road in the western
Michigan countryside. The police said that officers had received
complaints about a pickup being driven erratically and were searching for
it minutes before the crash. (AP)


No DUI.

Jay can clarify but I find:

Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as: 1) an intentional killing
that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of
passion"; or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's
obvious lack of concern for human life.

So the woman that called this an attack appears to have had reason to do
so.

Michigan has a really weird penal code that defines "second degree murder" any murder that is not "first degree murder." I quickly looked at the Michigan penal code and didn't see any definition of "second degree murder," and it appears that the state is still in the stone-age and uses common law definitions: the intent necessary to support second-degree murder "is defined as the intent to kill, the intent to cause great bodily harm, or the intent to do an act in wanton and wilful disregard of the likelihood that the natural tendency of such behavior is to cause death or great bodily harm." People v Goecke, 457 Mich 442, 464; 579 NW2d 868 (1998).

So, the guy who mowed down the bicyclists could have been acting intentionally or with a "wanton and willful" disregard of the safety of others -- which could be driving drunk. The Michigan statute appears to give prosecutors incredible latitude when charging murder -- which is a major criticism of common law charges and one reason states are moving toward the Model Penal Code. The MPC clearly spells out the elements of each crime including the necessary intent. Oregon is one of the few states that has adopted major portions of the MPC. http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/163.115

-- Jay Beattie

On 6/11/2016 3:40 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-11 12:36, Duane wrote:
wrote:


Michigan: Charges in Deaths of Cyclists

A prosecutor filed murder charges on Thursday against the
driver of a
pickup truck that struck a group of bicyclists, killing
five of them and
seriously injuring four others. The prosecutor, Jeffrey
Getting of
Kalamzoo County, charged the driver, Charles Pickett Jr.,
50, of Battle
Creek, with five counts of second-degree murder and four
of reckless
driving in the crash Tuesday in Cooper Township, north of
Kalamazoo. The
bicyclists ranged in age from 40 to 74 and were part of a
group that
called itself the Chain Gang. The cyclists were five
miles into a weekly
30-mile ride when they were struck from behind on a road
in the western
Michigan countryside. The police said that officers had
received
complaints about a pickup being driven erratically and
were searching for
it minutes before the crash. (AP)


No DUI.

Jay can clarify but I find:

Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as: 1) an
intentional killing
that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a
reasonable "heat of
passion"; or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and
the offender's
obvious lack of concern for human life.

So the woman that called this an attack appears to have
had reason to do
so.


A murder charge is not a murder conviction.

While I find that driver's behavior despicable we still have
the concept "innocent until proven guilty" in the US. One
can publicly call it attack or murder once that is proven
beyond a reasonable doubt that it was indeed the case.
Before such process it is IMO not appropriate to do so.


You are correct so far as it goes, and this will be
adjudicated at some point, but a reasonable and successful
defense seems unlikely. Similar he

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...610-story.html

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2016-06-11 13:49, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/11/2016 3:40 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-11 12:36, Duane wrote:
wrote:


Michigan: Charges in Deaths of Cyclists

A prosecutor filed murder charges on Thursday against the
driver of a
pickup truck that struck a group of bicyclists, killing
five of them and
seriously injuring four others. The prosecutor, Jeffrey
Getting of
Kalamzoo County, charged the driver, Charles Pickett Jr.,
50, of Battle
Creek, with five counts of second-degree murder and four
of reckless
driving in the crash Tuesday in Cooper Township, north of
Kalamazoo. The
bicyclists ranged in age from 40 to 74 and were part of a
group that
called itself the Chain Gang. The cyclists were five
miles into a weekly
30-mile ride when they were struck from behind on a road
in the western
Michigan countryside. The police said that officers had
received
complaints about a pickup being driven erratically and
were searching for
it minutes before the crash. (AP)


No DUI.

Jay can clarify but I find:

Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as: 1) an
intentional killing
that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a
reasonable "heat of
passion"; or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and
the offender's
obvious lack of concern for human life.

So the woman that called this an attack appears to have
had reason to do
so.


A murder charge is not a murder conviction.

While I find that driver's behavior despicable we still have
the concept "innocent until proven guilty" in the US. One
can publicly call it attack or murder once that is proven
beyond a reasonable doubt that it was indeed the case.
Before such process it is IMO not appropriate to do so.


You are correct so far as it goes, and this will be adjudicated at some
point, but a reasonable and successful defense seems unlikely. Similar
he

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...610-story.html


Yes, it is quite clear that the guy will be convicted. Just of exactly
what we don't know yet which is why I find statements about it
inapproriate. Hopefully he'll be in prison for a long time to think
about what he has done.

It's got nothing to do with this case but shows how constraint in
judgment is initially best: I know a guy who is crippled for life after
a driver behaved erratically, veered onto the wrong side of the road and
smashed head-on into his vehicle at high speed. That case might have
looked like reckless driving but from what I was told it turned out that
driver had suffered a heart attack behind the wheel.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/